Hope someone can give some insight.
Just did my valves, got everything back together and now the bike turns over, runs for a few sec. then dies... [bang]
Honestly, I'm at a loss. I'm about to start ripping things apart again but figured I'd see if anyone could point me in a good
direction.
Any ideas?
ANd what bike would it be you're talking about? ;D
Quote from: vboulderer on August 27, 2008, 05:18:44 PM
Hope someone can give some insight.
Just did my valves, got everything back together and now the bike turns over, runs for a few sec. then dies... [bang]
Honestly, I'm at a loss. I'm about to start ripping things apart again but figured I'd see if anyone could point me in a good
direction.
Any ideas?
did you do the vavles yourself or was it a shop?
Some more questions for you: Assuming you did the valves yourself, how did you go about finding TDC? Did you double check all your measurements?
Sorry 02 620
I did all the work.
TDC was established using the dot on the drive timing pulley and the mark on the crank case. All measurements were double checked.
I'm going to be doing mine in the next month or so i'll throw out a couple of ideas as a novice that keep coming up when I do it in my mind. Did you establish that the cylinder you were working on was the one at TDC with the index marks? And what did you change as far as shims?
QuoteTDC was established using the dot on the drive timing pulley and the mark on the crank case. All measurements were double checked.
Okay, thats horizontal TDC. Now what about vertical TDC?
Quote from: uclabiker06 on August 27, 2008, 07:03:14 PM
Okay, thats horizontal TDC. Now what about vertical TDC?
for the vertical cyl. the mark on the pulley was aligned with the mark on the cover.
None of the shims were swapped for new ones as they were all within spec. (double checked with the dealer) but I did remove and replace them in the vertical cyl. since I was in there to get a feel for it.
Well I've never done the valves before so I don't know if I can help you any further except to say that perhaps your vertical cylinder was not actually at TDC.
Should be fine if you did not actually change anything -- I assume there are no metal-on-metal love sounds emanating from your motor?
Quote from: uclabiker06 on August 27, 2008, 08:02:23 PM
perhaps your vertical cylinder was not actually at TDC.
when I checked the valves or when I put the belt back on?
And no metal -on- metal make out sessions
oh and thanks for your ideas. [thumbsup]
Right now i'm going a bit crazy trying to figure out where I went wrong.
basically did everything as described in the ducatitech.com / Ca Cycleworks "how to" videos.
If i did some how mess up the timing how would i go about rectifying it
Before pulling your hair out make sure all the basic stuff is OK eg. kinked fuel line, vacuum leak.
Make sure your Throttle Position Sensor is plugged in.
Don't ask how I know to suggest that. [roll]
Quote from: howie on August 27, 2008, 08:33:43 PM
Before pulling your hair out make sure all the basic stuff is OK eg. kinked fuel line, vacuum leak.
the only time i could keep the bike going for more than 30 sec. was if i pulled the fast idle all the way.
if i cranked the throttle it would die almost immediately.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 27, 2008, 08:15:11 PM
when I checked the valves or when I put the belt back on?
Did you replace the timing belts? If not, why did you remove the belt?
Belts were removed in order to check for binding so cams could spin more freely.
I don't think you bike should die even if the shims are way off. Are you absolutely sure you are not low on fuel? Your symptoms are indicative of low fuel.
bike has some fuel. ~ 1/4 of a tank.
perhaps timing is off by 180 deg. anyone know how to check/ remedy
thanks
Either the marks match up or they do not. I don't think you can be off if the marks match up.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 09:07:27 AM
bike has some fuel. ~ 1/4 of a tank.
perhaps timing is off by 180 deg. anyone know how to check/ remedy
thanks
Having timing "off by 180" is more of a car thing. If you rotate a distributor incorrectly in a car with a standard distributor, it can do that. That refers to ignition timing, not valve timing.
Since you never touched the pickup coils and the flywheel, ignition timing will not have been changed. All you can change with a timing belt is when the valves open in relation to the position of the crank. Valve timing.
There is no "off by 180" option here. That would be with a distributor in a car.
If all of the timing marks align properly, then it's not likely related to the timing belts or the valve adjustment. It's something else.
Quote from: Butcher on August 28, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
Having timing "off by 180" is more of a car thing. If you rotate a distributor incorrectly in a car with a standard distributor, it can do that. That refers to ignition timing, not valve timing.
Since you never touched the pickup coils and the flywheel, ignition timing will not have been changed. All you can change with a timing belt is when the valves open in relation to the position of the crank. Valve timing.
There is no "off by 180" option here. That would be with a distributor in a car.
If all of the timing marks align properly, then it's not likely related to the timing belts or the valve adjustment. It's something else.
My mechanical background is in cars.
Is it not possible to have the valve timing 180 deg. off in relation to the crank ?
honestly, in the 10 years i've been wrenching on cars i've never had one major issue.
i get a motorcycle... and well... :'(
Quote from: Butcher on August 28, 2008, 10:45:00 AM
There is no "off by 180" option here. That would be with a distributor in a car.
Actually, it has been known to happen with a Ducati engine. IIRC, what happens is that the person rotates the crank with the belts off the engine while doing valve checks on both the horizontal and vertical cylinders. When they reinstall the belts, the person rotates the crank to TDC of the
exhaust stroke and not the
compression stroke as it is supposed to be. They do this by not rotating through the next TDC of the horizontal piston, but only by aligning timing mark on the drive pulley with the engine case. When the belts are reinstalled, the cams are rotated to a TDC compression position instead of the TDC exhaust position that they should be with the crank in this position. This results in being 180-degrees off on
cam timing and not
spark timing, as you are thinking (spark is a condition based on the crank positioning and not the cam positioning).......I think I remember all of this correctly.
IIRC from the times I've read of people doing this, the bike will run, but runs like absolute crap. It will not have any power, acts like it is running on one cylinder, and may even die.
Sound like you solved this one. [clap]
Quote from: uclabiker06 on August 28, 2008, 11:54:00 AM
Sound like you solved this one. [clap]
this sounds like it could be it. Now who wants bonus points for how to get things back to normal.
if i take the belt of the Horizontal belt and rotate the crank 360 deg. wile keeping the horizontal cam stationary
then replace the belt I should be ok.
Any input would be most appreciated.
and thanks again to all for their help.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 12:20:49 PM
this sounds like it could be it. Now who wants bonus points for how to get things back to normal.
if i take the belt of the Horizontal belt and rotate the crank 360 deg. wile keeping the horizontal cam stationary
then replace the belt I should be ok.
Any input would be most appreciated.
and thanks again to all for their help.
You got it.
Line up the timing marks, pull the belt, rotate the crank 360 degrees, and put the belt back on with the timing marks lined up again.
But here's the question...
...are both cylinders off 180 degrees or just one?
Quote from: Rameses on August 28, 2008, 01:27:53 PM
You got it.
Line up the timing marks, pull the belt, rotate the crank 360 degrees, and put the belt back on with the timing marks lined up again.
But here's the question...
...are both cylinders off 180 degrees or just one?
well i just did the horizontal= bike runs for 4-5 sec. and dies.
i'm going to take the belt of the vert. cyl. rotate, crank 360 deg. replace belt, and see what happens. if i still got nothing i'll repeat the process on the horizontal (360 deg. crank rotation with the belt off) and see if that one was good to begin with.
if it's still no good, yeah well... yeah
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 01:47:13 PM
well i just did the horizontal= bike runs for 4-5 sec. and dies.
i'm going to take the belt of the vert. cyl. rotate, crank 360 deg. replace belt, and see what happens. if i still got nothing i'll repeat the process on the horizontal (360 deg. crank rotation with the belt off) and see if that one was good to begin with.
if it's still no good, yeah well... yeah
When you do the vertical, are you going to put the belt back on the horizontal while you turn the crank?
If you don't, that'll put the horizontal back where you had it.
belt back on Horizontal, belt off Vert. here we go...
well instead of rotating the crank i rotated the cam. bike ran for a bit longer but still died.
should i have set the bike to vert tdc using the sight window. and then rotated the crank with the belt off?
in my head it makes sense that rotating the vert. cam at horizontal tdc would do the same thing as rotating the crank at vert. tdc.
uh. my brain...
FYI if you take the spark plugs out you can feel a rush of air coming out on the compression stroke and you can look through it to make sure.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 02:37:04 PM
well instead of rotating the crank i rotated the cam. bike ran for a bit longer but still died.
should i have set the bike to vert tdc using the sight window. and then rotated the crank with the belt off?
in my head it makes sense that rotating the vert. cam at horizontal tdc would do the same thing as rotating the crank at vert. tdc.
uh. my brain...
That doesn't work.
You have to rotate the crank.
Rotating the cam 180 degrees and then putting the belt back on puts everything back the same as it was.
Rotating the crank 360 degrees and then putting the belt back on sets the spark timing to where it needs to be relative to the cams.
edit: Well, I guess you could do it by rotating the cam, but you would need to rotate it 180 degrees and then wouldn't have a timing mark to line it up with and would risk being off by a tooth on the belt. Not a risk I would want to take.
Quote from: uclabiker06 on August 28, 2008, 03:17:38 PM
FYI if you take the spark plugs out you can feel a rush of air coming out on the compression stroke and you can look through it to make sure.
That's only if the belts are on.
And if the belts are on, but timed wrong by 180 degrees, you'll feel the air coming out like it's the compression stroke when it should actually be the exhaust stroke.
Quote from: Rameses on August 28, 2008, 03:25:50 PM
That's only if the belts are on.
And if the belts are on, but timed wrong by 180 degrees, you'll feel the air coming out like it's the compression stroke when it should actually be the exhaust stroke.
Rameses you're kick'n A$$ bro thanks for the info.
problem is if i set the crank to tdc according to the marks on the pulley and crank case, take the belt off the vert. cylinder I can't rotate the crank fully.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 03:39:25 PM
Rameses you're kick'n A$$ bro thanks for the info.
problem is if i set the crank to tdc according to the marks on the pulley and crank case, take the belt off the vert. cylinder I can't rotate the crank fully.
You'll have to take the belt off, rotate the vert cam to where both valves are closed, turn the crank 360 degrees, turn the cam back to where it lines up with the timing mark and then put the belt back on.
Quote from: Rameses on August 27, 2008, 08:37:31 PM
Make sure your Throttle Position Sensor is plugged in.
Don't ask how I know to suggest that. [roll]
THAT was a classic! ;)
Wow, I would have imagined this mistake would have the same effect as a broken belt...glad things worked out and things didn't bang into each other.
Ok vert. cyl done. Bike starts runs very poorly for much longer (30+ sec.) then begins to choke out.
I suppose i'll try the horizontal cyl. one more time to see if that one was good and just the vert. was off.
either way thanks to those who've helped. I'm obviously new to the ducati community but am really impressed by the
support.
i'll post an update in a few min.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 06:54:27 PM
i'll post an update in a few min.
Yeah, let us know how it goes.
If that's not it, we'll help you troubleshoot.
well unfortunately that wasn't it... bike ran worse after redoing the horizontal.
A bit soul destroying honestly. I've been working on this for the better part of 3 days.
any ideas.
I may be pushing this italian paperweight onto the trailer tomorrow morning. the dealer's going to have a field day
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 07:37:25 PM
well unfortunately that wasn't it... bike ran worse after redoing the horizontal.
A bit soul destroying honestly. I've been working on this for the better part of 3 days.
any ideas.
I may be pushing this italian paperweight onto the trailer tomorrow morning. the dealer's going to have a field day
Well, first thing I'd do is rotate the crank relative to the horizontal cam again, since that seems to be the best combination for how it runs.
Then check over all of the vacuum and electrical connections again like Howie suggested earlier.
One more thing...
After you change the horizontal cylinder back, start it and let us know how it runs at various rpm.
For example, if you give it a lot of gas and get it up to ~6,000 rpm does it smooth out at all?
I just read all the other posts.....
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 03:39:25 PM
I can't rotate the crank fully.
This should be taken as a sign to STOP.....not being able to rotate the crank with the spark plugs out and the belts on is a bad sign.......it often means that a valve is tapping a piston or at least one closer shim is too tight and is giving resistance to cam rotation.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 06:54:27 PM
Ok vert. cyl done. Bike starts runs very poorly for much longer (30+ sec.) then begins to choke out.
If it wasn't for all the cam flip-flopping that has been done, I'd say this is a fuel/carb/injection issue.
Quote from: vboulderer on August 28, 2008, 07:37:25 PM
I may be pushing this italian paperweight onto the trailer tomorrow morning. the dealer's going to have a field day
Unfortunately, this may be the thing to do. I don't have a manual with me and don't remember how to tell when the crank is on the compression stroke for the horizontal cylinder. I believe a repair manual showing a complete engine rebuild explains how to align the cams with the flywheel markings.
For future reference if anyone stumbles across this thread later on I will explain how I do my valve adjustments and belt changes:
1) Get the horizontal cylinder on TDC compression (you should be able to easily rotate the opening shims with your fingers. I believe that if you cannot rotate the exhaust opening shims, it is on the exhaust stroke).
2) Do your valve check/adjustment
3) If you changed a closing shim and want to check if it is too tight creating binding on the rocker from the cam shaft do steps 4-8
4) Mark the edge of horizontal timing belt with a silver or gold Sharpie pen
5) Loosen the adjustable belt tensioner
6) Only remove the section of belt that is on the cam (I try to leave the belt on the drive pulley and do this with a clothes pin holding the two side of the belt a couple inches away from the drive pulley)
7) With the belt off the pulley, gently rotate the cam and feel for tightness. If OK,
8 ) Reposition the cam shaft and reinstall the timing belt, but don't readjust the belt tension
9) If you are done with the horizontal head, with the timing belt reinstalled, rotate the crank until TDC compression is found on the vertical head.
10) Do steps 1-8
11) If you are done with the vertical head, I always rotate back to TDC compression for the horizontal cylinder. This is because all of the fractory timing marks align (except Testestretta engines).
12) Remove both belts
13) Install new belts (on 2V engines, the vertical cam may partially rotate. 4V engines may have the exhaust cam rotate, so these cams will need to be rotated back into position if they shifted)
14) Adjust belt tension for the horizontal
15) Rotate to TDC compression for the vertical
16) Adjust belt tension for the vertical
17) Rotate through another cycle or two while checking the timing marks at TDC of the horizontal. If you get to a point where the crank will not continue to move, you may have a cam a couple of teeth off and is causing the piston to hit a valve. This is most likely is when installing the new belts, the vertical cam partially rotated and was not rolled back to the proper position before the new belt was installed.
There is a concern that if the belt tension is not set with the piston at TDC compression, there may be additional tension added to the belt from a cam shaft being partially loaded, which would lead to setting incorrect belt tension.
By never rotating the crank while a belt is off, you will never run the risk of having any timing issues.
If any of this appears incorrect, please let me know. It's fairly early and I'm going by memory on this.
Nice run down.
just to clarify.
1. with belts on i could rotate the crank freely by hand with no issues.
2. While doing the valve check with the belts off I never rotated the crank just the cams.
3. The bike is already at the dealer... i'll let you all know how things turn out when i get it back.
Thanks again for all the help guys.
cheers
Good lord...Coming into this tread a bit late since its already at the dealer but I hope this is a lesson to all...
MARK YOUR FRIGGIN CAM GEARS....They are DOTS on the vertical and horizontal timing belt covers. Get TDC on VERTICAL cylinder and MARK the cam with respect to the dots.
Its takes all of about 30 seconds to do..
Timing should not be this difficult. You can set timing with a maximum of 2 points on the 620. The notch on the top part of the clutch cover and the flywheel dot. If you see the dot in the the flywheel AND the dot on the double pulley matches the notch in the clutch, you're at TDC for the horizontal cylinder. Then you just instal the belts and align the dots on the cams with the dots on the timing belt covers and put the belts on.Theres no need for 17 Point thesis on this.
Keep things simple...
Good advice Eel
QuoteYou can set timing with a maximum of 2 points on the 620.
What do you mean by "2 points"?
1) Your flywheel has dots on it that can be seen through the sight window
2) The when you take off the timing belt cover you will notice the engine clutch cover has a small line cast into it..
If the double pulley dot matches this line AND the flywheel dot matches the arrow in the sight glass, you're at TDC for the horizontal cylinder..
LOL....I totally forgot about that. [bang]
That is how I aligned mine the first time I did a valve adjustment. Because of how cramped it is for me to go back and forth between the two sides of the bikes when I'm working on them, I quit using those marks on the flywheel about four years ago.
Quote from: EEL on August 29, 2008, 09:53:18 AM
1) Your flywheel has dots on it that can be seen through the sight window
2) Then when you take off the timing belt cover you will notice the engine clutch cover has a small line cast into it..
If the double pulley dot matches this line AND the flywheel dot matches the arrow in the sight glass, you're at TDC for the horizontal cylinder..
update.
Seems the bike actually has a faulty ECU (according to the dealer...)
how on earth The ECU decided to totally $h!+ the bed the same time i do a valve job I'll never understand.
Anybody here wana call shenanigans?
I dont want to point the finger but I can think of a few things that could potentially cause a problem like you described while performing a valve adjustment (im not pointing the finger, just a statement of possibilities)
1) When you disconnected the battery, you took the incorrect battery terminal off first and shorted it against something (perhaps ECU). Same think for installation
2) I've seen bikes blow a fuse when the battery is connected back again. Before I call BS on the dealer, I would check this out first.
3) Bad luck and its really an ECU issue.
This whole thread has kinda confused me... I wanna try doing the valves with the belts off this time to see if it's any easier for me (12k adjustment time anyways...) and I was wondering if I can
rotate the cam gears, but not the double pulley,
and when the valve adjust is done just line up the dots again on the two cam pulleys, along with the one on the DOUBLE PULLEY which hasn't been rotated while the belts were off.
Christopher
Quote from: evoasis on September 05, 2008, 12:13:41 PM
This whole thread has kinda confused me... I wanna try doing the valves with the belts off this time to see if it's any easier for me (12k adjustment time anyways...) and I was wondering if I can
rotate the cam gears, but not the double pulley,
and when the valve adjust is done just line up the dots again on the two cam pulleys, along with the one on the DOUBLE PULLEY which hasn't been rotated while the belts were off.
This is what i did. According to the dealer everything with my work was fine. my bike still isn't running... But mechanically it's fine.