I read in the October issue of Cycle World that Ducati is working on a new engine design, one that's not based the L-twin Pantah. They even claim that some versions will springs instead of desmo. :o According to the article, "If our information is correct, you won't see this engine prior to the 2010 model year."
I guess some updates are to be expected. After all, what would we be left with if engine technology never changed?
Right. Harley Davidsons.
Yeah, Harley Davidson Technology like Ducati has never changed. [roll]
i read that article. if it is true it may be the end of the 'L' s it sounds like they will stand it up for better packaging... oh oh but i did get excited about cam chains
Quote from: sugarcrook on August 30, 2008, 02:08:28 PM
I guess some updates are to be expected. After all, what would we be left with if engine technology never changed?
Right. Harley Davidsons.
I have a good article from a few years ago that details just how much HD engine designs have changed over the years. I mean no one rags on GM or Ford for having ancient pushrod V 8's. That's because they are continually upgraded with better technologies and things like computer management and FI. Just like HD.
I may ride nItalian now but have owned several Harleys and thouroughly enjoyed each one. They got me into mC's in the first place.
A Briggs & Stratton minibike introduced me to world of motorcycles at three years of age....I've grown up since then.
Even though the basic principle of the Ducati Desmo L-twin hasn't changed it has been tweaked and modified to produce more power and better control. i.e. the new 1098 has a traction control system. Last time i checked guys and gals that is progress. Now if Ducati switched to spring valves then i could accept that my wallet would be grateful (cheaper service). but i would not get any new ducs if they went away from the L-twins it wouldn't seem right.
SOOOOO for all those who bash 696 for the changes... wonder what you guys will say about this latest change [coffee]
Ahhhhh...... I love change. ;D
If the engine is in a bike that I'm in the market for and is better than the competition, I'll consider it. Otherwise, it'll be something else.
That said, I wonder why Ducati would go to a conventional (valve spring) motor? When I think of Ducati, I think of Desmo. A Ducati without a desmo L-Twin is like a Corvette without a V-8. It just seems wrong somehow.
wasn't the original Vette a 6 cyl [thumbsup]
I'm disgusted that a Corvette was even mentioned in this thread.
Quote from: Raux on August 30, 2008, 08:20:25 PM
wasn't the original Vette a 6 cyl [thumbsup]
Yes, in '53 and '54 there were no other engine options then the 'Blue Flame' inline 6 with three carbs on it. In '55, however, they did offer Chevy's *new* small block at 265cid with a 3-speed manual transmission in addition to the 6. (H.S. autoshop teacher had a '54 is why I know this BTW.)
As far as a new Ducati engine goes: It's about damn time. The original belt-drive L twin we all enjoy started life as 350cc's and made like 30-40hp. It shares precious little with any modern Duc L twin so evolution has occured....a shit-ton of evolution as a matter of fact. I see this as a good thing for the company.
They need to break things up a bit and if done properly (and that's really the key to this IMO), it will work. Hell, they may even introduce a belt-drive system or some other non-"Ducati" thing. You never know man....you may just actually LIKE the new Ducatis...
Honestly, the way I see it, Italians always do things differently. As long as it is Italian works of art coming out of Ducati, I'm good with it.
Ducati used springs to close the valves for a few decades on the single cylinders bikes. A few of the vintage racers prefer the valve springers over the Desmo heads due to the fact -- modern spring technology is so much better.
Imagine a base model Ducati v-twin engine with valve springs with 24K miles between adjustments? Your maintenance bill for those who use dealership service is greatly reduced. Ditto for the belts and adjustment. Add in a belt drive for the rear wheel. Modern electronics for the fuel injection system that is "smart" and properly compensates for exhaust or mild engine modifications. And gets better gas mileage while making more horsepower than the previous displacement version. It would still be a "Ducati" no matter what anyone thinks. Look at the incredible sales of the 696 even with the hardcore detractors commentary. The only "loser" with such a bike is the Ducati dealerships themselves who are dependent upon service fees to stay afloat.
I still think Ducati should have a solid low maintenance base model (@700cc) that is their large volume model as it were. Then have a larger displacement (1000/1100cc) version of it with some suspension upgrades. Then a yearly "limited edition" version of the large displacement engine with a SSS and the Desmo head.
How about a desmo with gear driven cams and screw type adjusters on the rockers.
Quote from: blue tiger on August 30, 2008, 05:37:02 PM
I have a good article from a few years ago that details just how much HD engine designs have changed over the years. I mean no one rags on GM or Ford for having ancient pushrod V 8's. That's because they are continually upgraded with better technologies and things like computer management and FI. Just like HD.
I may ride nItalian now but have owned several Harleys and thouroughly enjoyed each one. They got me into mC's in the first place.
lots of folk rag the US manufacturers for using ancient technology... like pushrods ... ladder frames etc. the computers just keep the life support going.
HD's are awesome but being technologically current is not their forte. doesn't matter really, that's not why folk buy them (the new porsche-engineered-head motor is an exception)
it the didn't rattle and shake the life out of you people would actually ride them enough to find out what POS they really are... lol, just kidding, they are delightfully crapola.
The thing that bothered me a little was the change from 90 degrees. If you read the article it not only says they'll lift the front cylinder but narrow the angle. That will change the sound, that part is unsettling
Quote from: silentbob on August 31, 2008, 09:25:49 AM
How about a desmo with gear driven cams and screw type adjusters on the rockers.
This is what my '85 GS1150 had. Very easy to work with ~
JM
No more Desmo Owners Club :o
I remember a few months ago James Parker designed a hydraulic desmodromic valve system .
A hydraulic valve and belt driven Ducati would remove much maintenance and more money could be spent
on carbon fiber and titanium performance enhancements by the owner.
Hopefully this year at Milan ,Ducati will unveil a new ST with these two features.
Quote from: Raux on August 30, 2008, 06:19:04 PM
SOOOOO for all those who bash 696 for the changes... wonder what you guys will say about this latest change [coffee]
There must be SOME reason we all picked Ducati in the first place. Is it just a trendy name? If Ducati can change anything and everything about the bike and you don't care then what makes a Duc special to you?
Quote from: Bill in OKC on September 01, 2008, 06:38:54 AM
There must be SOME reason we all picked Ducati in the first place. Is it just a trendy name? If Ducati can change anything and everything about the bike and you don't care then what makes a Duc special to you?
It`s Italian my brother with curves in all the right places [thumbsup]
Quote from: Lars D on September 01, 2008, 06:03:24 AM
I remember a few months ago James Parker designed a hydraulic desmodromic valve system .
A hydraulic valve and belt driven Ducati would remove much maintenance and ....
ive read about that (hyd valves) before and it could be an ideal solution. but no more belts. throw some chains on it and never think about them again. ever.
Quote from: Bill in OKC on September 01, 2008, 06:38:54 AM
There must be SOME reason we all picked Ducati in the first place. Is it just a trendy name? If Ducati can change anything and everything about the bike and you don't care then what makes a Duc special to you?
It's mine. What else do I need to make it special?
I like the chain idea - belts have their benefits (light weight, little noise, no oil needed, easy to adjust the timing) but the maintenance is excessive for a modern motorcycle design.
As for getting rid of desmo, that's what threw me off in that article. I suspect they are talking out of their asses (not the first time). It would be very easy to make desmo as long-service as conventional springs. In fact you can do it yourself for about 250$ plus shims (MBP collets). Ducati has avoided locking collets (except in the R models and race bikes, because they know locking half rings wont shatter under duress like standard ones do, and they still get their labour on those by making them impossible to adjust without removing the cylinder heads) just to keep maintenance intervals short. There is NO benefit to keeping standard half ring collets over a set of locking collets. None. Zip. Zero.
If it's not going to be an L-twin, could it be a nice desmosedici-based V4?
The Honda VFR won lots of acclaim for their bullet-proof design of the 800 (chain driven cams, etc.). VFR owners love them. Great bikes.
The included angle of the cylinders on the Honda is 75(?) degrees or so. Makes a nice compact package.
Ducati puts a V-4 into an ST platform, mama mia, my little Monster Rs would be traded in pretty quick . . .
Although I've always been a Euro bike nut, I vowed to buy the first bike that would exceed 150 mph in stock trim. In 1984 that was a VF1000F Honda. I was wowed by the engine at the time, but not the total package. I had grown up on Ducati, BMW, Norton, Guzzi etc. and knew all about the Ducati Apollo project. I was also riding a 1980 - 900ss at the time and thought "Ducati has got to do this" - a vee four. Well it's been a long time, but I still wish they would do a 1200cc v4. If the Japanese can do it so cheaply, the Italians should be able to come up with something of quality for some more coin, but not the almost 80 large of the Desmosedeci.
Notice that Aprillia went to 90 degrees in it's recent new v twin motors. If you rotate the engine back a few degrees and then slide it forward in the frame aren't you "there"?
And yea, I don't see the need for Desmo valves, although after 35 years I'm used to the idea. There's just no justification for that level of complexity on the street. Is there?
LA
All this talk of belt drives...
Ducati is a company with real actual racing heritage (not just brochure copy). Now personally, I love belt drives for their easy of use and maintenance free operation. But they don't allow gearing changes.
I think a belt drive with the proper ratio would be great on a new ST though!
I don't know why Ducati would abandon desmodromic valve actuation. I mean the advantage of being able to open the valves without the power robbing effect of fighting the valve springs and then mechanically close the valves as well seems so efficient.
I don't think I would like a Ducati without desmodromics. It would be like Subaru changing to an inline engine or losing AWD - it is just what they are know for.
I REALLY don't think I would like a Ducati four cylinder. I haven't ridden a four cylinder yet (inline or vee) that I like as much as a twin. :-\
Quote from: monsterduc on September 02, 2008, 10:37:17 PM
I don't know why Ducati would abandon desmodromic valve actuation. I mean the advantage of being able to open the valves without the power robbing effect of fighting the valve springs and then mechanically close the valves as well seems so efficient.
Yet smaller motors produce just as much power with the traditional design.....
Quote from: someguy on September 02, 2008, 11:07:37 PM
Yet smaller motors produce just as much power with the traditional design.....
Not for the same number of cylinders. HP is work per unit of time. Produce the same torque at a higher rpm and you'll have more HP. Given the same displacement and bore to stroke ratio, the engine with more cylinders will rev higher and therefore produce more HP. Right now Ducati makes the highest HP 2 cylinder engine.
What he said! [thumbsup]
Quote from: Evil_Ductator on September 02, 2008, 01:24:44 PM
All this talk of belt drives...
Ducati is a company with real actual racing heritage (not just brochure copy). Now personally, I love belt drives for their easy of use and maintenance free operation. But they don't allow gearing changes.
I think a belt drive with the proper ratio would be great on a new ST though!
I think you misunderstood. They're talking about the cam-timing belts in the engine being changed to chain.
Quote from: Smitch on September 03, 2008, 03:24:13 PM
I think you misunderstood. They're talking about the cam-timing belts in the engine being changed to chain.
Yea, going back and looking again I think you're right, I was just not thinkin' straight [thumbsup]