OK, something has been bugging me and I have to figure it out.
It has to do with street riding in general.
I have been on street bikes for over 30 years (Ducati since early 2001). But most of my experience in fun has been on dirt bikes. On a dirt bike you can wheelie, you can go 110 mph through the trees, you can just plain go crazy, and only your bones are at risk (depending on the area). When riding responsibly, meaning with regards to other riders, you won't get a ticket, get thrown in jail, or even get dirty looks. And yes, I can do all the crazy things in the dirt, and still be riding responsibly.
I have always felt I ride a little too fast on the street. I rarely go the speed limit , and I occasionally use the power of my bike to get around cars. And I am usually the passer, not the passee (is that a word?) However, I have only had 1 ticket on a street bike ever (speed trap about 10 years ago) and have never laid down a bike. Everyone says it's only a matter of time before I crash. But that has been the story since I have been riding. Yes, I have NEVER crashed on the street. Of course, I have crashed plenty of times on my dirt bike.
Now that I live in Nashville (just moved from Denver), the roads are winding, buff and fun! Generally I try and keep my speed to within 10 or 15 mph over the limit. Occasionally I will go a little higher when I feel it is safe to do so. But here is my confusion:
How fast are people on this board really going on the street? I keep reading stories about crashing, putting their knees down in the turns, etc. Do people really ride like this, or over their heads on the street that often?
Last evening I was driving down an awesome road in the country near my house. Few cars, no other bikes, certainly no police, and going as fast as I dare go considering I was on new terrain, maybe 20 mph or so over the limit in places tops, but usually around 10 over. I wasn't in risk of ditching my bike. In fact, I dare say, I am completely 100% confident in my abilities in the situations I encounter, and after 30 years know I will come home from such a ride intact. I just can't see letting crazy loose in a corner and dragging a knee where you can't see around the other side for traffic, don't know what lays on the surface (gravel, grass clippings, cow crap), don't know the radius of the turn, etc.
So, I called an old Colorado riding buddy after my ride last night and he said, 'Well Bryan, you not ever crashing on the street either means you are really an awesome rider, or really wimpy and slow".
So, if I am that slow, are people really riding local roads at 40, 50 mph over the limit on the back-roads and putting the knee down in turns that you haven't ridden before?
I guess when I feel the need to completely let loose on the street bike (like I used to in the dirt), the last place I would want to do it is on public roads. Driving down the back roads, I am spending so much concentration looking for nasties on the road, cows around the corners, other cars, police, etc., I just don't feel I am even close to really letting loose. And, on roads with a speed limit of around 40 to 45 mph, really pushing the pace would be more like in the 100 mph range, and that is a night in jail waiting to happen (and cancelled insurance). The track would be much more fulfilling for really pushing the bike.
So, are people really riding nutty fast on the street? Or is my idea of nutty fast different than others?
(I don't consider 20 mph over the limit nutty fast)
Cheers from Music City,
Bryan...
I don't know about dragging ones knee, but I have noticed that no one goes the speed limit. As a person new to motorcycles I have been taking this slow so I don't get myself into trouble. Speed limit or below obeying all the rules etc. I've noticed that no one around me is going the speed limit, ever really. I get passed all the time like I'm not moving. I get passed by other bikes, cars, semi trucks. On back roads when I'm going the speed limit cars might stack up two or three behind me gunning to try and get around. I usually pull over some where since I'm not into people riding my ass. I am going the speed limit too.
I can't afford to get into any trouble and I fell that gets me into another form of trouble, being "in the way." Which to me on a bike is almost more scary than the police. I don't have the skill yet to even put myself in the position you are talking about, but in my right mind I can't really see that working out for someone in the long run. To me it's more of a numbers game than anything and sooner or later those numbers are going to catch up to whom ever is pushing things all the time. It would really suck to have you life destroyed/ended because of some cow sh*t.......
Not a bike but check out what happened to this poor sob when he pushed things too far.
http://jalopnik.com/5043902/lamborghini-murcielago-in-deadly-accident-on-californias-101-obliterated-almost-beyond-recognition
Personally I've never seen anyone dragging knees on the streets. I think that kind of mentality should be reserved for the track under a controlled environment. There are so many variables on the street that make me ride rather defensively. But the main reason I don't push it too much on the streets is my family.
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n417/Bbrent_photos/IMG_7403.jpg?t=1220374687)
(http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n417/Bbrent_photos/IMG00039.jpg?t=1220374730)
My speed limit is usually defined by danger, traffic, road type, road layout etc. On a stretch of empty pavement I know well, I tend to scoot along. In-town I stick close to posted limits. I also do in areas where there are lots of driveways & roads intersecting the road I'm riding. There's *usually* enough reserve for me to dodge an obstacle or slow enough to turn a crash into a minor tip-over.
JM
Quote from: MTBryan on September 02, 2008, 09:08:16 AM
How fast are people on this board really going on the street? I keep reading stories about crashing, putting their knees down in the turns, etc. Do people really ride like this, or over their heads on the street that often?
Some people do, others refer to those who do as squids...I don't think any rider should put other people around them at risk...
Quote from: MTBryan on September 02, 2008, 09:08:16 AM
So, I called an old Colorado riding buddy after my ride last night and he said, 'Well Bryan, you not ever crashing on the street either means you are really an awesome rider, or really wimpy and slow".
That's a false dichotomy. You don't have to be going fast to crash...you can be going speed limit and not paying attention as still crash.
Quote from: MTBryan on September 02, 2008, 09:08:16 AM
I guess when I feel the need to completely let loose on the street bike (like I used to in the dirt), the last place I would want to do it is on public roads. Driving down the back roads, I am spending so much concentration looking for nasties on the road, cows around the corners, other cars, police, etc., I just don't feel I am even close to really letting loose. And, on roads with a speed limit of around 40 to 45 mph, really pushing the pace would be more like in the 100 mph range, and that is a night in jail waiting to happen (and cancelled insurance). The track would be much more fulfilling for really pushing the bike.
So, are people really riding nutty fast on the street? Or is my idea of nutty fast different than others?
(I don't consider 20 mph over the limit nutty fast)
I found this a good read and helpful to put "speed" in perspective...I am a firm believer that it take no skill to go 100+ mph in a flat freeway.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=117.0
Personally I've never seen anyone dragging knees on the streets. I think that kind of mentality should be reserved for the track under a controlled environment. There are so many variables on the street that make me ride rather defensively. But the main reason I don't push it too much on the streets is my family.
I, too, dont feel the need speed or to go fast or do crazy sh*t on the the stereet or highway. I love my skin intack and my body in one piece.
I got too much to live for.
Jake
Strangely enough since I have been riding on the track my street riding has actually slowed down.
As for knee draging on the street. Most people I see doing it are riding relatively slow for the turn and hanging way too far off the bike. They usually are crosed up with their head and shoulders on the inside of the turn and their hips and legs as far to the outside as possible. I have passed these guys in turns with my knee no where near the pavement while they are dragging and going slow. I don't drag a knee until the bike is at 50 degrees lean and I don't see many people on the street running that fast. I very rarely drag on the street because I am pretty close to the limit at that point.
Too many road hazards as you stated... I see alot of sand, hay, and weird stuff like bricks, ladders and of course truck tire treads...
When asked "how fast do you ride?"
I say "as fast as I want to hit a deer at"
dragging knee on the street is reckless and irresponsible, imo. i ride maybe 15-20 over on twisty roads, fast enough to be fun and get a decent lean but still have that 10% leftover in case something is waiting around a blind corner. i think i have hit my limit as far as street riding goes - meaning, i have the skill to take the corners faster, but i'm not comfortable doing it somewhere there could be gravel, deer, opposing traffic, etc - i need a track now.
and agreed with above poster about "dragging knee" literally - it's not so much a function of speed as body position and riding style.
That's what I am talking about everyone! Sounds like I am on the same page as everyone else (so far). Maybe I'm thinking of the 'squids' when seeing what other street bikers do on public roads. I am still trying to learn the street slang. :)
And true, anyone can twist the throttle and go 100+ mph in a straight line.
I guess I am trying to balance:
1) Fun
2) Don't Crash
3) Don't make anyone else crash
4) Don't get a ticket - can't take any more insurance increases
5) Don't get thrown in jail
6) Try not to piss other motorists off, although that isn't always within my control
I guess that's what comes with age. In my earlier years, some of those were of a lower priority.
And you are right CDawg, you DON'T have to be going fast to crash, or get a ticket. All the tickets I've had have been when I am just cruising along (in my car or truck), listening to the radio, and chillin. When I am driving faster or more aggressively, I am paying much more attention, looking for problems, very defensive, and looking for the law. Obviously, someone driving UNDER the speed limit, talking on the phone, having a big gulp, is much more of a danger than someone with skill that is tuned into his/her surroundings. Unfortunately, usually just the speeder gets the ticket. Not the dummy.
I like the 'How fast do you ride' response!
+1...I think on roads with less traffic and the ability to be safe, 15-20 over is fine...
Just don't do 40....ouch! [leo]
I find it odd that, as motorcyclists, we still equate knee dragging with ridiculous speeds. You can knee drag at 20-30 mph depending on the radius of the corner. Most of my knee dragging (don't get to go to the track anywhere near as much as I'd like) happens in a parking lot with no one around and nothing to damage.
I think of it this way, if I've never practiced leaning that hard, how will I do when I *need* to? We all talk about looking through a corner & leaning when we run wide but don't you think it's better to not make an emergency your first attempt? I'm not condoning knee dragging wherever, just making a point.
Speed wise, I'm pretty chilled until I know a road really well (like where all the pot holes are) and make a first pass.
YMMV
It's hard to tell how fast people are riding unless you actually ride with them. There are a coupla variables that make it hard to discuss online.
1) Variations in speed limits for road conditions. I have been to parts of the country or other countries where the speed limits for twisties are way different than here in Northern CA. So, for someone to say "I'm 20 over speed limit" doesn't mean that much.
2) There is a huge variation in the speeds for yellow warning signs. I know that if I get a 15 or 20mph yellow sign around here, it's gonna be TIGHT. I've seen other places where they put up 15 mph or 20 mph for turns that would otherwise get a 30 or 35mph yellow sign here. Someone was just talking to me about taking 35 mph turns at triple digit speeds. I think that'd be pretty much impossible here.
3) People cannot accurately describe their riding online. Even if they're not bragging or whipping out their e-penis, the description rarely matches the reality.
4) You often don't know people's riding experience. For example, some use dragging hard parts as an indicator of speed. But a new rider with little experience can drag hard parts pretty easily by pushing the bike down or taking stupid lines or having the suspension way off. If a racer, hanging off like a monkey and taking smart, clean lines drags hard parts, that's a whole different story.
That said, if you put a knee down on a street (without hanging off like a monkey and purposely trying), you're going too fast. My street pace is prolly 50% of my track pace (who really knows -- I'm describing it on the internet (see # 3), but with a whole buncha stupid moves mixed in for shits and giggles. I've been surprised at how at the painfully slow street pace of some online loudmouths and at the blazing (sometime stupid) speed of others. There's no rhyme or reason. It's why I want to ride with a group I know, who rides at a pace that I think of as fast, comfortable and safe. The really fast, suck-your-balls-into-your-body riding is for the track.
Good point about different speed limits in different areas. Here in Tennessee, it seems like they post limits WAY low for conditions. So, 20 over is easy to do. The Natchez Trace is posted at 40, and it would be easy to go 100 in places and 70 around corners.
Over the weekend, I was in Northern Mississippi visiting some relatives of my wife's. I was driving her car on some back roads on Sunday that were very tight, blind corners, and lots of driveways. They speed limit was 55 mph! I couldn't believe it! Some of the corners I couldn't maintain 55 unless I really put on the G's, and withstood a barrage of crap from my beloved wife about going too fast. Most cars were going around 35 mph.
And good point about knowing the road. I knew highway 285 out of Denver like the back of my hand. Every turn, bump and pothole. The turns were great at speed. I could RIP that baby up. But on a new road out here, I am like a blue haired grand mama on Sunday.
sounds like you need a track day!! :)
Ah yes, I NEED a track day! :)
(tell my wife that)
There is a local track here in Nashville. Or, there is an awesome racing school in Atlanta that I might be able to swing in the Spring. It is much more expensive, but they provide the bikes, so the Foggy won't get beat up too bad.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm . . .
Quick disclaimer:
I got my girl back in May as a first bike and have since put 6ish thousand on her. I can't believe the exhiliration I get from ANY corner with a good line or just goosing the hell out of the throttle, yet I'm still sufficiently terrified of my bike for me to keep myself (and it) within limits.
That being said, there must be quite the discrepancy in speed limit postings to actual safe speed riding. There's a stretch of about 10 miles of twisty roads that leave right out of Columbia and have only 2 good straightaways that I ride when I'm feeling frisky or feel like working on form, cornering, etc. As of late, I run at almost exactly 30 over. I treat it almost like a heart rate monitor for riding (motorcycles). If I'm running a little slower than that, I know my bike (and myself) can handle more. At the same time, If I push 35+ over the posted limits (say 85 on a sweeping 50), I can feel my suspension settling in harder and feel the strain just a bit more so I know I should back off. Not that I'm itching to try, but I've never scraped any hard parts, nor has my knee come anywhere close to dragging. Hell, for that matter my ass doesn't shift too much at all. Maybe it's bad technique. Dunno. I just compare my relative comfort while riding alone to group rides that carry on a decent pace. The last ride we had 2x people all of whom were on rice with exception of a 749r so my 800 was definitely the baby of the group, but I wasn't the slowest.
I whole heartedly agree with Evil Steve though. The ability to drag knee/make a turn a bit quicker than anticipated is key in street riding, even if you never use it. I've had a couple of pucker moments where I took a turn too hot and had to lean into it just a bit harder than I was comfortable just to keep my line and stay out of the other lane/ditch. In that sense it's a good thing that my bike knows more about what it's doing than I do, but rest assured it usually takes me a week to get back into the twisties after something like that.
As far as stacking up cars behind me....I never have that problem. It's probably a combo of the "new toy" feeling not having worn off and the fact that my bike simply WANTS to go faster (ok, that may be an excuse). I like to ride with other people on occasion simply to figure out exactly what you're asking. How fast are people riding?? Bottom line, ride within your limits, be aware that something can happen ANYTIME you're out on the bike, and most importantly, just enjoy. [moto]
Somebody I know mentioned the Hailwood technique today. I'll be damned if I understand the whole knee draggin thing at all. Why? What does it get you? I ride about as fast a a person, any person, can ride on some of the twistyest roads you can conjur up. I haven't seen anybody who comes close to draggin a knee unless they're sliddin down the road. The turns come up so fast I don't see how you could position yourself so freekin far off the bike to do it anyway. It's all pretty new to me. Maybe I just don't get out enough?
Sounds pretty squidly.
LA
I tend to ignore speed limits and ride what feels comfortable for me. I rode a S4Rs last year and this Summer I'm breaking in a 1098 R
I do 95% of my riding in the " Hills " of South Eastern , Ohio in the Wayne National Forest . I ride alone . I have a 100-150 mile route that I run in many different variations.
Since it's all 2 lane blacktop I tend to ride at whatever speed the conditions seem to dictate. I've had a bad crash in the last year, 4 broken ribs , a punctured right lung ,and other serious injuries which led to 2 Hospital Surgeries including a Thoracotamy.
Didn't ride for over 12 weeks.
I don't ride as fast as I used too before the crash but I still run in the triple didgits from time to time.
I will pass a string of 4 cars on a tight road if I can see a 1/4 mile ahead of me since the R will hit 100 mph in a couple of heartbeats. without going above 7,000 RPMs.
Then pickoff the next couple of cars and the truck pulling a trailer( that was causing a caravan ) in the next 1/8th mile busrt when I can see 1/4 mile open ahead.
The R is so fast that you can pass 4 cars so fast that it almost happens before you have a chance to realize it's happened.
I take most curves at twice the posted speed marked , I don't drag a knee, I do hang off the bike in turns .
I try to improve my riding skills everytime I ride.
I do observe speed limits inside of city limits and on Freeways for the most part ( no place to hide so to speak ).
As far as how other riders ride. All I can say is if they are on a Harley ...I'm going to be flying by them, if they are on an other sportbike then we might be going the same speed or I will be passing them if I don't have to do anything crazy.
I've found that if I'm not going at a brisk pace , my senses are not at thier peak and my Adrenalin isn't working in my favor. Dolph (only 126 more miles 'til breakin for the R)
126 miles until the R is broken in ! ( Been running the full race setup since new ) Then who knows ? Dolph [thumbsup]
I have only run 7,000 RPMs 1 time and that was in 2nd gear on a short straight and the Front tire has never been off the ground w/ me on the bike on purpose or by accident.
I suspect that a large percentage of the folks who talk "putting a knee down" on the street are just blowing hot air. I've ridden with some really good riders, and almost kept up with them (but was way out of my skill level, so I have toned it down since), but they weren't going 40-50 over...
It's the same as the "chicken strip" discussion. At the gas station pre-ride, anyone with chicken strips may get called out on it. It's a macho thing, and often just for the sake of talking sh!t.
I'd say ignore those guys with the loud mouths and ride your own ride.
C'mon Bryan!!! You are a Speed Demon!! Don't you remember passing me on Hwy 840 at 125mph with your elbow on the tank, your head planted on your hand and looking at me like saying.. "Is this all you've got Julian" LOL ...just joking.. it was only at about 124mph.. ;D
Let me know if we are riding tomorrow!
About the track day... Sept 26th.. Ed Bargy's school.. I don't want to do it by myself.. [beer] we also get a racing license if we pass their written and lap times minimums I believe... ;D
Quote from: Manny on September 02, 2008, 07:23:15 PM
I'd say ignore those guys with the loud mouths and ride your own ride.
Now THAT sounds like good advice to me! [beer]
Just wanted to follow up on a good point that DoubleEagle made. The proximity of the road to built up areas will change the speed I ride. Also, the freeway is no place to speed.
I kind of set limits based on the area & the posted speed limit.
30 = 30
35 = 40
40 = 45/50
45 = 50/55
50 = ~60
60 = 65/70
65 = 75
If I'm in a built up area with a lot of (potential) traffic, I'll slow down & maybe do 1 or 2 over. Small towns with a lot of people traffic get the same reaction. For example, my road is a 45 zone and is a country back road. I know this road *very* well, every pot hole and wash. As you might imagine, I ride this road at a spirited pace. There are sections where there are quite a few houses. When I'm going through these areas, I slow down to 5 or 10 over especially when I know there are houses with kids.
Personally, I think this is pretty safe. When I'm gunning around in the quiet areas I'm only putting myself at risk (for the most part). I do knee drag when I'm hanging off but not all the time. Some corners genuinely require some serious speed to get the knee down, some are just very tight so, going 20 is enough with the right form. Here's what I mean by right form, not perfect but I'm not leaning the bike.
(http://photos.toshcroft.com/photos/175589682_HgQAQ-L.jpg)
(this is the car park where I practice)
HAHAHAHAHAHA Julian!
BUSTED!
Come on now. That was a wide open stretch of road, no cars coming or going, and I could see about 2 miles ahead.
I was a little disappointed I only got up to 125.
:)
Around town, I ride at the speed limit or with the flow of traffic and I think I am mostly a conservative and responsible rider.
On the local mountain, I ride early in the morning (sunrise) when there is very little car traffic and I ride at an elevated, yet comfortable pace for me. I know 20 of the 25 miles of the road very well and my strategy is fast in the corners and slow on the boring parts. I hardly ever touch my brakes on the mountain, just roll on throttle and roll off. The ride is very invigorating and relaxing. [moto]
The group I usually ride with, we know each other well and we are not competitive. We just have our meeting points up and down the mountain and ride our own pace to get there. By the time traffic starts picking up, we are off the mountain and go have breakfast.
Quote from: MTBryan on September 02, 2008, 09:08:16 AM
How fast are people on this board really going on the street? I keep reading stories about crashing, putting their knees down in the turns, etc. Do people really ride like this, or over their heads on the street that often?
Just because someone is fast, even if they are dragging a knee, doesn't mean the person is riding "over their head". Read this (stolen from Sport Rider magazine).....
QuoteYou slide in behind him or her and maybe they glide smoothly around in
front of you-and within a handful of corners you know there's
something special here. It's not their hardware, which might be
anything from Japanese Standard to the latest race-replica tackle. Nor
is it their clothing, which, if anything, probably carries a patina of
age-the leather or nylon faded from long miles in the sun and spotted
from uncounted bug-cleanings. Nor is it just that they're fast, though
they probably carry a pretty crisp pace. No, what instantly gets your
attention is the utter casualness-the sheer effortlessness-with which
they ride along the road, dispatching the curves like so many pieces
of candy. There's a relaxed assurance in their demeanor, a perfect
confidence in their swift cadence, which gives rise to a certainty of
what the next miles will bring. Their speed is just-so. We watch for a
while-assuming we're able to stay with him or her and in our heart of
hearts, where our desires stir and our egos live, we couch what we're
seeing in the same way we always do. We know some rider, maybe we know
lots of riders, buddies who are surely faster than Mr. Smooth and
Effortless. Hell, maybe we're faster. But even as we think these
things, salve for the ego, we can't escape the growing suspicion that
this rider in front of us is just playing. Not with us, but with the
road-probably the merest touch of a smile tugging at his lips as they
glide through the corners-even as our own heart hammers a staccato
beat as we're carried along in the rush behind them. Maybe it dawns on
us, in a moment of honesty, that they could just walk away if they
wanted. One of those things you just know. So why don't they? Why is
it that they seem content to just roll along, playing those curves in
the road like so many riffs drifting easily from a well-worn guitar?
We all talk about being good, about being smooth. Well, there they
are, right in front of you. The poster child.
In a sport whose very appeal is built around the merits of speed-a
sport where our greatest heroes are those who go the fastest, a sport
where even the most mundane machinery comes dripping with performance,
where even the clothes we wear are based upon the need to attenuate
the risk we perceive attendant to that speed-it's hard not to get
caught up in the notion that speed is the thing. It's both the
yardstick by which we measure ourselves and the mantle in which we
wish to be draped. Hell, who doesn't want to be fast?
The corollary, an article of faith repeated so often that it seems to
beg any argument, is that speed-too much of it at least is a bad
thing. It's the bogeyman waiting to catch us out any time we cross the
imaginary line of too much. Most of us nod our heads when we hear
that.
The thing is, that doesn't always jive with our experience. We see
riders all the time who manage to crash at quite modest speeds. And we
know some-admittedly a much smaller number-who ride really fast, and
have for a long time, but who never seem to crash. Not as in they
don't crash very often. As in they never crash.
We all undertake a modicum of risk every time we thumb the starter
it's just inherent to the sport. But those of us who choose to adopt a
faster pace deliberately assume more of that danger. We knowingly
engage the laws of probability in a game of chicken. You play it long
enough and you lose. That's what we've always been told, right?
Why is it, then, that such a select group of riders manages to ride at
an elevated pace over many miles, weekend after weekend, trip after
trip, year after year, with little in the way of mishap? Why are these
riders seemingly held apart, aloof, from the carnage which too-often
otherwise afflicts our sport? And how is it that so many other riders,
traveling at much lesser speeds, still manage to toss away their bikes
with such depressing frequency?
Well, maybe we've been looking in the wrong place all along. Maybe,
just maybe, it's not about speed after all-at least not in the way we
usually think of it. Maybe it's about something else, something as
simple as the degree of control we exercise over a span of road.
It might happen on any ride, on any Sunday. We head out with some
buddies, or maybe we hook up with that group of riders we were talking
to down at the gas station, or maybe that devil on our shoulder is
simply a little more vigorous in his exhortations this day. However it
happens, we soon get to the road. The good one. The one that brought
us out here in the first place. And there, in that mix of camaraderie
and good tarmac and adrenaline-laced delight, we find ourselves giving
away that which we had sworn to hold tight to-our judgment. It doesn't
happen all at once. We give it away a little click here, a little
click there, like a ratcheting cord. Soon, rolling through the curves
faster and faster and laughing under our helmets all the while, we
enter a new realm.
We've all been there. We instantly know we're in a new place because
it's suddenly different. Our lines are no longer quite so clean. We're
on the brakes more, and we're making little mistakes in our timing.
And instead of that Zen-like rush through the corners we enjoyed just
moments ago-the state of grace that is the prize of this sport-we're
now caught up in the brief slivers of time between corners trying to
fix those mistakes. They seem to be coming faster now-both the corners
and the mistakes-and there doesn't seem to be quite enough time to do
what we need to do, the errors piling up in an increasingly dissonant
heap. Our normally smooth riding is suddenly ragged, with an edgy and
anxious quality. Inside our helmets the laughter mutes and then is
gone altogether, replaced by a grim determination to stay on pace. We
start to mutter little self-reproaches with each newborn error.
Soon enough we'll blow it. We'll get into one particular corner too
hot-realization and regret crystallizing in a single hot moment-and
from that instant until whatever's going to happen does, we're just
along for the ride. It will be what it will be. With a touch of luck
we'll come away with nothing more than a nervous laugh and a promise
to ourselves not to do that again. That and maybe one more little debt
to pay. You know, the one we just made to God-if he would please just
get us out of this mess we'd gotten ourselves into. Just this one last
time, promise.
Just one of those moments, huh?
It has to do with choices. When we ride a challenging road-at whatever
speed-there is an observable, knowable degree of control that we
exhibit. Not just over one corner. Not even over just one section. But
over the entire road. On some days our mastery is complete-we've
chosen to stay well within our own personal skill envelope. On other
days-well, on other days maybe we choose to push toward the edge of
that envelope. To a place where our mastery begins to diminish. To a
place where the degree of control we exhibit gradually decreases.
Ultimately, to the tipping point-where all our skills seem to go to
hell and gone in one big hurry.
There's a predictability to it. A good rider, riding within his proper
envelope, will have none of those moments. There will be no spikes in
their heart rate. No sudden bursts of adrenaline. Nothing but a
smooth, flowing movement across the road. They will be this side of
the tipping point-the tipping point for them. It'll be different for
each of us. And it'll vary from day to day, maybe even hour to hour,
depending upon how we feel. Sometimes we're in the groove and
sometimes we're not. But I think the key is that as long as the rider
stays this side of the tipping point, they can probably ride a
surprisingly long time without ill effect.
And that's the message. The predictor of bad stuff, the closest thing
we have to a crystal ball, are those moments. They are part of the
landscape, part of the sport. And they happen to all of us. But for
any given rider, they need to be very rare. If they happen with any
frequency at all, I'd say the tipping point is at hand. And if that's
a place you choose to hang around much, there's probably something
very ugly waiting for you not too far down the road.
Think about all those riders who've ever impressed us, like our rider
at the beginning of this story. They all seem to have a smooth, fluid,
easy quality about them, an assurance which belies any stress or fear.
They're always balanced, always in control. I suspect somewhere along
the line they've acquired a germ of wisdom, hard-won over many miles,
which has given them an appreciation of their own limits. They know
where that tipping point is-where their mastery of their bike, the
road and the environment begins to slip away-and they long ago made
the decision to stay this side of it.
When you do find them testing their limits-surely there's an argument
to be made for exploring the edges of one's ability-it's likely to be
at a time and place of very careful choosing, and it probably involves
a racetrack. Much of wisdom involves simply knowing when and where to
lose those impulses that we all carry.
So maybe it's never been about speed after all. Maybe that's why such
a small, select group of people are able to ride for years and years
without crashing-the fact that they ride fast is secondary to the fact
that they're always in control. They know their own limits.
And that's the lesson for the rest of us-at least for those of us who
wish to enjoy this sport for a long, long time. There's a choice to be
made, every time we thumb the starter.
Not that it's easy. If it were, we wouldn't see the carnage among our
ranks that we do every weekend. But for those who manage it, for those
who bring restraint and discipline to mix with their skill and daring,
there's an upside, even beyond the satisfaction of bringing one's bike
and body back unscathed after an afternoon's ride. There's something
to be said for gathering up one's powers, like the magician that
motorcycle makes us feel like, and wielding them well along a good
road. There's art to be found there.
There is also the matter of riding style. My wife cannot slide off the seat so she cannot drag a knee, I can drag a knee on occasion, and a buddy of ours gets way off the seat and can drag a knee in nearly every curve. We can ride through the same curve, at the exact same speed, and it'll be just that.......she is sitting upright, I may drag a knee on occasion, and he's dragging a knee in every curve.....which one is riding over his/her head?
We routinely ride in the mountains of SC, NC, GA, TN, and VA and ride at an elevated pace. It is not uncommon to be doing 20+ over through the mountains. We just got speeding tickets, last year, for doing 67 in a 40, and we usually come out of that curve at 80+. There are some 35 mph curves that we can sing through at 60 mph or more, and I can tell you of one road with 45 mph curves that I've taken at over 115 mph before.......and there are some marked 15 mph, that if you can go through it at 20 mph, you're FAST. ;)
Quote from: MTBryan on September 02, 2008, 09:08:16 AMSo, if I am that slow, are people really riding local roads at 40, 50 mph over the limit on the back-roads and putting the knee down in turns that you haven't ridden before?
My wife and I have taken the riding buddy of ours I mentioned before on several roads he has never been on before, probably another 100+ miles of mountains roads this past weekend, and while riding behind one or both of us, I watch him dragging a knee in a lot of the curves where it was his very first time being on them.
Quote from: Bbrent on September 02, 2008, 09:59:13 AM
Personally I've never seen anyone dragging knees on the streets. I think that kind of mentality should be reserved for the track under a controlled environment.
I see it all the time and do it fairly often. I can give you a curve in a 40 mph zone where you can easily drag a knee through it at 30-35 mph if you get off the seat far enough.....and you can see all the way through the curve.
Quote from: LA on September 02, 2008, 06:14:47 PM
I'll be damned if I understand the whole knee draggin thing at all. Why? What does it get you? I ride about as fast a a person, any person, can ride on some of the twistyest roads you can conjur up. I haven't seen anybody who comes close to draggin a knee unless they're sliddin down the road. The turns come up so fast I don't see how you could position yourself so freekin far off the bike to do it anyway. It's all pretty new to me. Maybe I just don't get out enough?
Larry, go down to "The Store" on Hwy 11 and Hwy 178 on a Sunday late morning and look for two blue/white GSXR 750s, a black and copper GSXR 1000, and an orange ZX10R and ride with them when they go up 178. You'll be amazed as to how freakishly fast these guys are....if you can keep them in sight. I don't ride with them....I usually stay off the mountain when they are around. They storm through every curve while dragging a knee and they have no chicken strips on the front or rear tires and often have the rubber rolling off like they just got off the track. I've known the guy on the ZX10R to drag a knee AND footpeg at the same time and not only has he worn the toe slider out on his boots, but he's worn them OFF his boot and has holes in his boots covered with duct tape. All these guys do is ride up and down 178, all day long, and have been doing it for years. I know I've done 100+ in one of the longer straights and had them wiz past me at well over 150 mph before.
I know this guy. He lives in Charlotte and this picture was taken at Shady Valley, TN about a year or two ago...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d32/Kramer_Krazy/Cidman.jpg)
Quote from: LA on September 02, 2008, 06:14:47 PM
I'll be damned if I understand the whole knee draggin thing at all. Why? What does it get you?
I totally forgot to address this.....
What you gain by sliding off the seat is that you move the center of gravity of you and the bike toward the inside of the curve. This allows the bike to stand more upright at the same speed as if you were sitting straight up on the seat. I started to slide off the seat because of this happening on my ST2....
Exhaust header...
(http://www.desmodemon.com/scrape_3.jpg)
Side stand...
(http://www.desmodemon.com/scrape_4.jpg)
Center stand...
(http://www.desmodemon.com/scrape_2.jpg)
If some of you guys think other riders don't drag knee on public roads then you are in denial. I know and have know plenty of riders that definitely drag knee on the steet, not because they are showing off (i don't know to who) but because they are jamming up the hill.
Here are pics of people dragging knee in the local canyons where I live:
(http://fotos.tlamantini.com/images/pics/Pics4.19.08/smalls/AC_20080419_43sm.jpg)
(http://fotos.tlamantini.com/images/pics/Pics4.13.08/smalls/AC_20080413_38sm.jpg)
(http://fotos.tlamantini.com/pages/3.15.08/GMR3.15.08_60.htm)
On the site where this pictures were taken from, almost every group of pictures has 1 or 2 knee draggers. Macho thing? Show off? Possibly, if they do it and it feels good for them I say go for it. Like the other poster said, it's better to drag a knee puck then a MC hard parts.
I agree with a lot of what the OP said, however... With no offense meant, a lot of the accidents I read about on here were definitely avoidable with more experience or better rider training... There have been quite a few low speed accidents were the rider made a simple avoidable mistake...
Quote from: Desmo Demon on September 03, 2008, 06:26:47 AM
Just because someone is fast, even if they are dragging a knee, doesn't mean the person is riding "over their head". Read this (stolen from Sport Rider magazine).....
There is also the matter of riding style. My wife cannot slide off the seat so she cannot drag a knee, I can drag a knee on occasion, and a buddy of ours gets way off the seat and can drag a knee in nearly every curve. We can ride through the same curve, at the exact same speed, and it'll be just that.......she is sitting upright, I may drag a knee on occasion, and he's dragging a knee in every curve.....which one is riding over his/her head?
We routinely ride in the mountains of SC, NC, GA, TN, and VA and ride at an elevated pace. It is not uncommon to be doing 20+ over through the mountains. We just got speeding tickets, last year, for doing 67 in a 40, and we usually come out of that curve at 80+. There are some 35 mph curves that we can sing through at 60 mph or more, and I can tell you of one road with 45 mph curves that I've taken at over 115 mph before.......and there are some marked 15 mph, that if you can go through it at 20 mph, you're FAST. ;)
My wife and I have taken the riding buddy of ours I mentioned before on several roads he has never been on before, probably another 100+ miles of mountains roads this past weekend, and while riding behind one or both of us, I watch him dragging a knee in a lot of the curves where it was his very first time being on them.
Desmo Demon, do you know who the author was for that SportRider piece?
Edit: found it
Jeff Hughes, Sport Rider, October 2003
Quote from: MTBryan on September 02, 2008, 09:08:16 AM
In fact, I dare say, I am completely 100% confident in my abilities in the situations I encounter, and after 30 years know I will come home from such a ride intact.
Back in July I had my first crash in like 12 years. And my first one ever on the street. I didn't really do anything wrong. Someone hung a chain up in a parking lot. It wasn't painted a bright color (in Texas they have to be marked) and it was hung very low. it was night, and the street lights were far enough apart that I couldn't see it. all I was doing was turning around... my bike goes crazy, the handle bars are yanked out of my hands and the first I see of the chain is when it breaks my mirror and flys at my throat. Jesus, and some muscle memory left over from years of Martial arts, saved my life. Somehow I got my arm between part of my neck and the chain. I was yanked off of the bike by my throat, up into the air and slammed on the ground.
On several occasions i have barely missed cars/old people in RV's behaving stupidly... stuff happens. don't get over confident, you stop looking for those accidents about to happen.
That being said, I drive like a granny. I like going fast, but I really like being safe and confident.
I certainly haven't avoided a crash all these years by having too much confidence. Obviously, I am very cautious, no matter what speed I am going, and am very good at riding defensively. And, I don't pretend for a second that a crash isn't possibly around the corner for me.
My first motorcycle accident ever was similar to yours. I was 17 and just started riding. I grew up in the Colorado Mountains, and they didn't care if I had a license or not. I borrowed my friends dirt bike for the summer since he had moved away. So, I rode it on the street, and had some off road fun occasionally.
I had an off road single track trail I would ride right next to a fence, owned by a local grumpy farmer. I had been riding it for a few months on my lunch break when one day I was ripping along, maybe 50 mph, and suddenly I saw he had taken one strand of barbed wire, and strung it across the trail. It was way too late to stop. Luckily the wire hit towards the top of the bars, and was held in place by the controls. It stretched out, and brought me to almost a complete stop before going CRACK, and breaking. All that happened to me was right when it broke, it let go of the bike, and it shot out of my legs, I fell on my butt, and the bike went ahead about 20 feet and fell over in some bushes.
If that wire had hit me in the chest (I was wearing a t-shirt), it possibly would have cut me in half, or at least dug in deep. And, if that happened today, I'm sure his ass would have been thrown in jail!
Over the years, I've had 8 or 10 flaming off-road crashes. Nothing broken, luckily. Although, any off road crash can be serious. It totally depends on where you land. I've had some great landing spots with luck on my side. :)
Like the time I was racing the Montrose Enduro and hit a HUGE rock while trying to avoid another rider, then doing the superman at about 40mph through the air, and landing on the only grassy spot in the area, instead of on the numerous rock fields surrounding that grassy spot.
Or the time...
Nevermind, too many stories, and too boring for all!