Couple of questions until I get the DesmoTimes book:
First Question:
It's my understanding that three things need to be lined up before belt removal and before installion: 1) The little dot on the vertical cylinder cam gear should line up with a nub on the cover mount; 2) The crank gear has a dot that should line up with a tick mark on the engine case, and 3) the horizontal cam gear should align with a raised nub on the rubber cover mount.
So my first question is, what is the site window on the left side of the engine for (the one opposite the oil site window)? Does that need to line up with something as well?
Second Question:
How in the hell do you free the hex bolts that adjust the belt tension without stripping them?
I cannot get them loose. Who makes a good allen socket wrench?
Many thanks.
You're correct in all of the 'lining dots up', assuming you've got a 2-valver.
You don't need to worry about the left side sight window for belt work.
Allen sockets, in order of price and quality:
Craftsman
Proto
Snap-On
Honestly, the Craftsman stuff is up to the task.
I've got a set of the regular Craftsmans and a set of the long Protos.
Quote from: darkattackdog on September 03, 2008, 09:14:31 PM
<snip> Who makes a good allen socket wrench?
Many thanks.
If you're cheap like me, you could try the set available at Autozone. They've worked well so far. Besides, when I tried to buy the Craftsman set, the helpful CSR told me they were only available for online purchase [bang]
Yes, you need the left side window..check the dot on the flywheel for top dead center alignment. If you havent done timing before you need to use it as well. One you have your belts off you need a double check to make sure you are correctly on TDC. Better safe than sorry.
Okay, now I'm really in a pickle. Someone on another board told me to ignore the left site window--that it didn't have anything to do with belt changing. I was able to line up the vertical ticking mark with the nub on the case cooresponding to it and the horizontal ticking mark lined up with it's mark, but no matter how much I rotated the rear wheel counterclockwise the dot on the cam cog would always be off it's mark slightly. I had read on another board that on 749's the factory crankcase marks and timing marks are meaningless--the bottom cog mark with casing mark will never cause the camshaft cog marks to line up. So I figured maybe that was the case with mine. Now I can't get anything to line up. The bike won't even start now. It just makes a "click" sound and sometimes the fuel light flashes (there's gas in the bike and the plugs are in).
What to do?
Well, the marks don't line up *exactly*, they can be off a dot width or so.
As far as the non-running issue, have you loosened anything, and what have you taken off?
Not sure why it's not running now. When I first changed the belts and was putting them on and off, trying to get the dots lined up, it would run but didn't run or sound anything like it normally does. So I did that over and over and then I thought I had it right. The bike sounded close to normal. So I rode it down the alley and back in first gear. But after riding it I realized the timing still wasn't right. So I took the belts off again, trying different positions. Now it won't turn over. Is it just that the timing is far off?
I haven't taken anything off but the seat. And just raising the tank to get at everything.
bump please
Turn the engine over until the drive pulley dot aligns with the hashmark on the cover.
The dots on the cam pulleys should be within a dot width or so of lining up with the dots on the belt covers.
I got some misinformation on another board about how to put my bike in Top Dead Center. And now, finding out how to accurately find TDC, I realize I did my belt change without being in TDC. Could this be part of my problem sorting out the timing? Also, can I damage my bike by running it to see if the timing is correct when it isn't? I'm really having trouble sorting the lining up with everything and feel justifiably like an idiot.
I'll be right back with pictures....
Rotate the engine so the drive pulley is like this:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/2829842608_3d7a5c79ce_o.jpg)
Vertical cylinder should be like this:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3027/2829842626_2dda901c93_o.jpg)
Horizontal cylinder should be like this:
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3209/2829842620_5f054de0cd_o.jpg)
Your engine may not look *exactly* like these pics, but very close.
Running the engine with the cam timing wrong can damage things.
+ 1 on speed dogs pics. Just make sure the flywheel dot is aligned as well just to be safe..
Turn the motor with the back wheel in 6th gear see if it spins all the way through. DONT RUN THE MOTOR. If you hit resistance STOP. Make sure you remember to take out your spark plugs first as well..
Something must be really wrong because I took the belts off again, lined everything up, backed the rear wheel up and didn't have any resistance. So I figured I was good to go. When I try to start the bike I get nothing but a click, and sometimes not even that.
Have I done some bad damage to the engine?
Quote from: darkattackdog on September 05, 2008, 01:39:44 PM
Something must be really wrong because I took the belts off again, lined everything up, backed the rear wheel up and didn't have any resistance. So I figured I was good to go. When I try to start the bike I get nothing but a click, and sometimes not even that.
Have I done some bad damage to the engine?
Sounds like your battery is dead.
Make sure your battery terminals are tighted. Loose battery connections can do this too..
Well, I put the battery on a charger for about 4 or 5 hours this morning because I thought that might be the issue. And still, just the "click" noise. Isn't 4-5 hours enough to at least get the bike to turn over? Or maybe I just need a brand new battery? If it's that simple I would be so relieved.
Make sure all of the large battery cables are tight.
Perhaps your battery is done for, or the starter relay has taken this opportunity to give up.
I've read on this forum that it's okay to jump a bike battery with a car battery. Is this true?
I'll buy a new battery if I have to, but thought a jump might be a way to rule out the battery.
You can jump it from a car battery, just don't have the car running.
Having just done my belts for the first time about a month ago (still need to remove the covers to check tension, being lazy) I can attest to it being a somewhat simple but very confusing and worrying process for someone that hasn't done it before.
When done correctly the bike won't need to be started to check the timing. All the dots should line up pretty accurately, like speed says there may be some minor differences in the alignment but get it as close as possible and you're fine. Make sure you're in 5th or 6th gear if you have it (makes aligning the dots without overshooting easier). Make sure the dots are aligned before you remove the belts, then it's really a case of removing and reinstalling the new belts and trying to leave everything as is without jogging things around too much. You can play with the sprung wheel on the vertical cylinder, eventually it will relent and you'll get the belt on. You shouldn't have to mess with anything like the battery, it helps to remove the plugs, also makes sure the bike doesn't fire when you turn the engine over. I've heard of people using a screw driver down the plug hole to check for tdc, I didn't do this. The horizontal cylinder is easy, the wheels will move if you touch them but you can align them by hand (if you only jog them a few ml each way) and install the belt. Make sure you tension everything and tighten everything before attempting to start the bike. Plugs back in, fire it up and it 'should' run just like it did with the old belts. It's a task that's easy to over complicate and think too much about. Took me about an hour and 15 mins, I could probably do it in 20 mins now.
If it goes pear shaped and things get messy, just remember, take everything apart, start from the top, line up the dots, tdc, plugs out (you don't technically even need to do this but it does make it easier), re install the belts and try to start it again. I can't think of anything directly involved with a belt change that would cause the bike not to start, it's probably a non related coincidence where something else gave up and just needs replacing. Would turning the motor over too many times load the cylinders with too much gas maybe, or would that only be with carbed models? That's a question for Speed.
Hope you get it figured out. Sorry for the long winded reply.
Quote from: darkattackdog on September 04, 2008, 06:26:53 PM
Okay, now I'm really in a pickle. Someone on another board told me to ignore the left site window--that it didn't have anything to do with belt changing. I was able to line up the vertical ticking mark with the nub on the case cooresponding to it and the horizontal ticking mark lined up with it's mark, but no matter how much I rotated the rear wheel counterclockwise the dot on the cam cog would always be off it's mark slightly. I had read on another board that on 749's the factory crankcase marks and timing marks are meaningless--the bottom cog mark with casing mark will never cause the camshaft cog marks to line up. So I figured maybe that was the case with mine. Now I can't get anything to line up. The bike won't even start now. It just makes a "click" sound and sometimes the fuel light flashes (there's gas in the bike and the plugs are in).
What to do?
You're over thinking things at this point.
Did you remove any electrical connections on the bike when you were performing your belt change?
Battery? ECU? ETC...
What I would do would be to smack the starter solenoid with the handle of a hammer, then try starting the bike again.
Its worked a couple times for me over the years.
The next thing I would do would be to break out the red key, and try to start the bike with it.
Also, are you seeing the security lockout light lit up on the dash?
BC.
I think I have a battery issue. I'm pretty sure I have the belts on correctly now. As far as that goes, I think what goofed me up from the get go was the whole putting the bike in Top Dead Center. For someone relatively new to bike mechanics other than changing the oil and carb cleaning, etc., the significance of Top Dead Center was not really understood. Now, after schooling myself a bit in basic engine mechanics, I now get it. But in the tutorials (ducatisuite, ca-cycleworks) they never really explain it or why it's important. They should really stress the importance of TDC in a belt change, how to do it properly, and also what can happen if you don't. So, once I got that all straightened out, I think I've done the belt change correctly. But I'll still knock on some wood on that one.
So last night I took the battery out of the bike and put it on a battery tender. Unfortunately it wasn't doing its job of charging properly--don't ask me why. So I tried to jump the bike with cables hooked up to my Jeep (not running). After a bit the bike would want to turn over but just didn't seem to have the juice. This time I thought I'd give the battery tender another try. So I left the battery in the bike and the tender read this time that it was charging. Not sure why it wouldn't with the battery off the bike. Anyway, I'm hoping I'll have enough juice to get the bike started tomorrow. I also ordered another battery, figuring after five years it might be due time. So if it won't start tomorrow, then I'm back at square one, or two maybe by now.
Oh, and no, I'm not seeing the security lockout light light up on the dash? What's that about?
Quote from: darkattackdog on September 06, 2008, 06:49:59 PM
... So I tried to jump the bike with cables hooked up to my Jeep (not running). After a bit the bike would want to turn over but just didn't seem to have the juice...
Can you give a littel more description by what you meant from "..bike would want to turn over.." . Was the engine turning over freely and just not starting or did it turn a fraction and stop? You have other problems if the battery from you Jeep didn't at least turn the crank with ease. This could be a loose wire, starter or other electrical problem... or your engine could be seized...
Now the real question, at what point to do take it to someone who knows wtf they are doing?
You also might be a tooth off & the valve is contacting the piston. Look on the horizontal head pulley & be SURE it's on right. That's the one that most people screw up.
Bigtime:
The engine was turning over freely when I was trying to jump it with the Jeep. Like I said, I rotated the rear wheel after doing the belts to make sure nothing was binding. And I'm guessing you were just trying to be helpful and not unnecessarily insulting with your last statement. Isn't this supposed to be a forum for learning and "helping" each other out?
Norm:
I have the horizontal pully dot lined up with the hole in the belt casing, like on the Chris Kelley video.
Bigtime:
The engine was turning over freely when I was trying to jump it with the Jeep. Like I said, I rotated the rear wheel after doing the belts to make sure nothing was binding. And I'm guessing you were just trying to be helpful and not unnecessarily insulting with your last statement. Isn't this supposed to be a forum for learning and "helping" each other out?
Norm:
I have the horizontal pully dot lined up with the hole in the belt casing, like on the Chris Kelley video.
Quote from: Speeddog on September 04, 2008, 08:16:01 PM
I'll be right back with pictures....
Speeddog
Many many thanks
[bow_down] [bow_down]
I have just set the timing as per pictures and we have a Monster now purring.
Just need minor valve adjustements to get rid of rattles and we are go.
if your battery is "too dead" some battery tenders will not charge the battery at all no matter how long you put it on.
found that out with the "battery tender" brand charger, they say in the manual that if the battery is totally dead their charger won't charge it up.
5 years for a motorcycle battery is a good amount of time, i would guess that it was basically done with and is no longer holding a charge
i would guess your electiral issue is unrelated to the belt changing and probably is a bad coincidence.