I was just curious what the opinions were to a question that has been rolling around in my head for sometime now.
Who do you think knows their bike's best capabilities and how to ride it under all sorts of circumstances that we all encounter form time to time ? Whether we ride in Town or out in the Canyons or in the Hills or Grasslands or Forests etc.
Is it the dayly commuter who rides 30 miles per day, or the 3 days a week rider who rides 50-75 miles each time , or a twice a week rider who rides 100-150 miles each time out ?
Opinions and why you choose your answer please.
What about me who only ride once a week (if lucky), but lays down 200 miles in the socal mtns? :(
I think it has more to do with how much riding experience a person has. For instance, I ride the hell out of my 695 (24k miles) but I've only been riding for 2.5 years. Someone who has been riding for 10+ years could probably ride my bike for a month a few times a week and know more about it's capabilities than me.
Quote from: trouble on September 11, 2008, 06:42:19 PM
What about me who only ride once a week (if lucky), but lays down 200 miles in the socal mtns? :(
Same boat, and I probably haven't been riding nearly as long as the other people on this forum.
depends on the person and type of situation.
I will say i am much better in urban traffic than 90% of motorcyclist traffic becasue i commute 30miles each day in NYC traffic. But I cant say the same for hitting corners. its all varied by what you do the most, and how tough it is.
Quote from: He Man on September 11, 2008, 07:36:06 PM
depends on the person and type of situation.
I will say i am much better in urban traffic than 90% of motorcyclist traffic becasue i commute 30miles each day in NYC traffic. But I cant say the same for hitting corners. its all varied by what you do the most, and how tough it is.
In your case it's the dealer. [cheeky]
Sorry. ;D
Quote from: trouble on September 11, 2008, 06:42:19 PM
What about me who only ride once a week (if lucky), but lays down 200 miles in the socal mtns? :(
I had to draw the line somwhere. Some body may do a trip a month that covers a week and 5,000 miles.
You have a legitamate question. Explain why you know your bike better than any of the other riders mentioned might know their bikes better.
It's not a game or a trick question. Dolph
O.K., I'll play.
Limiting myself to your list of choices, I'll choose the commuter.
Reason: they ride in all types of conditions. Rain, shine,heat, and cold. they learn how their bike runs in these different conditions, and can adapt to wet pavement, or cold tires.
The other two categories have the luxury of picking when they ride, which is probably going to be sunny days in the warmer seasons.
Quote from: trouble on September 11, 2008, 07:43:14 PM
In your case it's the dealer. [cheeky]
Sorry. ;D
i hate you. lol
Quote from: Bun-bun on September 11, 2008, 08:46:48 PM
The other two categories have the luxury of picking when they ride, which is probably going to be sunny days in the warmer seasons.
What's a season?
;D
Quote from: Bun-bun on September 11, 2008, 08:46:48 PM
O.K., I'll play.
Limiting myself to your list of choices, I'll choose the commuter.
Reason: they ride in all types of conditions. Rain, shine,heat, and cold. they learn how their bike runs in these different conditions, and can adapt to wet pavement, or cold tires.
The other two categories have the luxury of picking when they ride, which is probably going to be sunny days in the warmer seasons.
Like I mentioned earlier, it's not ment to be a game , but you do make some good points.
Although, what would a cmmuter know about carving curves at agressive speeds and how their bike will react to various types of rider imputs.
I feel the commuter is left begging when it comes to knowing the performance side of their bike.
How their bike's components work together at speed and how to brake best and when , how to get the most fun out of their bike since that is really what Ducatis are about..fun in a rather speedy way. Dolph
Quote from: DoubleEagle on September 11, 2008, 09:23:00 PM
Like I mentioned earlier, it's not ment to be a game , but you do make some good points.
Although, what would a cmmuter know about carving curves at agressive speeds and how their bike will react to various types of rider imputs.
I feel the commuter is left begging when it comes to knowing the performance side of their bike.
How their bike's components work together at speed and how to brake best and when , how to get the most fun out of their bike since that is really what Ducatis are about..fun in a rather speedy way. Dolph
Thats why we have weekend. [thumbsup]
Weekenders on the otherhand, will never know what its like to have a taxi trying to run you over ever 3 mins.
Since it does not appear you are limiting your choices (e.g., either a, b, or c), it would be someone who does a track day and can push the bike closer to its limits.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on September 11, 2008, 09:23:00 PM
Like I mentioned earlier, it's not ment to be a game ... Dolph
Isn't everything on an internet forum infotainment? [thumbsup]
I commute rain shine hot cold in dense traffic but during my first track day I did not recognize my ride, she was a different animal entirely so that puts me on the track day person side of the fence
people who ride dirt bikes know their bikes well. They've crashed 1000 times already and are just good at falling.
Quote from: spaugh on September 11, 2008, 10:08:37 PM
people who ride dirt bikes know their bikes well. They've crashed 1000 times already and are just good at falling.
[laugh] I think thats the best answer so far. Dirt bikers have made the most mistakes time and time again, they also do it while losing traction all the time.
Quote from: DoubleEagle on September 11, 2008, 09:23:00 PM
Like I mentioned earlier, it's not ment to be a game , but you do make some good points.
Although, what would a cmmuter know about carving curves at agressive speeds and how their bike will react to various types of rider imputs.
I feel the commuter is left begging when it comes to knowing the performance side of their bike.
How their bike's components work together at speed and how to brake best and when , how to get the most fun out of their bike since that is really what Ducatis are about..fun in a rather speedy way. Dolph
I called it a game because the choices were limited, and there was no info on what type of riding was done in each case.
Someone who commutes into NYC will have different obstacles than someone who lives in the canyons outside LA and commutes into the city, and they both will have a different commute than someone who commutes in the piedmont of North Carolina.
I'm closest to your 2-3 ride a week rider, but I live in Norfolk VA. Totally flat, and very few twisties within 100 miles travel.
Jeff
Quote from: DoubleEagle on September 11, 2008, 06:40:46 PM
Who do you think knows their bike's best capabilities and how to ride it under all sorts of circumstances that we all encounter form time to time ? Whether we ride in Town or out in the Canyons or in the Hills or Grasslands or Forests etc.
People like me.....
Those folks who ride thousands and thousands of miles each year, in all kinds of weather, and all kinds of temperatures. Those folks not only ride on a perfect day, but those days when it is cold, rainy, foggy, there's ice or snow on the road, ride at night, and any combination of these. They also have experimented with several different tires and combinations of tires, played around with suspension settings, and know what their bikes should "feel" like. These people also like to push the envelop on occasion, testing their bikes and themselves, either through being a little frisky on the street or engaging in trackdays. These people also wrench on thier own bikes. Essentially, the bike becomes a part of the person....like an extension of themself.
two aspects to street riding. bike control, and situational awareness.
I don't care how fast or good of a street rider you are, I don't think you'll get close to knowing what your bike can do without getting on the track and getting instruction.
And a pure track rider is likely to get t-boned by a driver on the street because they didin't know what to look for to avoid the situation. (assuming they did no commuting etc. before)
The skills learned at the track can be directly applied to bike control on the street.
The traffic pattern skills and most other street skills cannot be directly applied to the track.
survival street skills come from experience, and I think commuting in traffic is the best learning tool for that. You can be told to look for cars turning left in front of you...you can be told not to ride next to anyone and to filter slightly faster than traffic...you can be told to not ride in the middle where all the oil drops...but it takes practice.
bike control skills come some from experience, but a lot of that will be bad habbits. Good bike control skills come from good instruction in a controlled environment (track).
Quote from: cbartlett419 on September 11, 2008, 09:59:20 PM
I commute rain shine hot cold in dense traffic but during my first track day I did not recognize my ride, she was a different animal entirely so that puts me on the track day person side of the fence
My only problem w/ the thinking of the track rider knowing their bike best is that they are running over the same corners and straights over and over without any real major change in conditions .
Yes they are pushing their bikes closer to their limits but once they get in a groove , it's got to be like getting into a zone where things tend to remain pretty much the same lap after lap.
No dodging animals in the road , gravel in the corners , blind corners ,hill crests that don't tell you what is on the other side , carving new corners, learning the way your bike handles minor changes in road surfaces , minor rider inputs , how your bike handles your inputs at various speeds and in various degrees of curves , how much braking you need to do in all sorts of situations , how much grip do your tires have in various lean angles, does your bike want to handle in the way you want it to or do you need to do suspension adjustments for a better handling ride.
A track bike is setup for optimum handling for a specific track.
I would think it better to know how to set up your bike so that it is right for you anywhere you ride ( track excluded since it's so specifc to the specific track ).
So it would be obvious that I'm leaning toward the rider who rides longer rides since that rider is exposed to many different road conditions. Dolph
until you go out on the track, you won't understand quite why some people saying that's incorrect.
And how do you know how fast your bike can turn to dodge that road debris if you haven't cranked the bars hard at speed...in a way you'll never ever do as 'practice' on a public road.
You can't learn how to push your riding limits without removing the other areas that take up your concentration..ie: the very road challenges you are talking about. When those are removed you can learn better how to operate your bike.
And then when you have a better ability to operate your bike and make it do exactly what you want with no surprises, you can apply that to the situation where something happens on the road...gravel, etc.
your entire paragraph starting with 'no dodging..." is full of stuff you learn at the track.
a few years ago you would have been able to convince me someone with decades of street riding would easily be more proficient than someone with a little track riding. That's because a few years ago I was a rider with many years of street riding under his belt but no track riding. I commuted for about five years daily, rain or shine.
I was very wrong. I obtained great survival skills of course, and I wasn't slow... but in terms of outright ability to make the bike do something consistently time and time again, and be positioned correctly, and keep the bike stable... My riding skills improved more with four coached days on the track than years and years of figuring it out myself on my bike and by reading books.
And those 'surprises' you point out in street riding happen less too. The blind corner can be addressed with vision drills on the track, and then if there's truly a surprise around the corner, like a parked car or an accident, your command over your bike will be a huge asset.
A very relaxed grip on the bars learned and then drilled ovcer and over again on the track will help you not give improper input to the bike as it moves around...when your rear slides a little due to sand and your front wheel corrects, you won't death grip it and keep it from doing so... etc.etc.etc.
I think we'll never convince each other about this one, but without having done the track side, I will keep saying your ideas of what you learn on the track are just not right. You make the track sound like the same thing over and over again...it's just not like that. And since none of us are at the level of professional racer, bike setup per track just doesn't happen...it's just not that focussed.
fun discussion... I forgot to throw in some smileys. :) :)
Dunno.... I started riding when I was around 10. did the next ten yrs in mostly dirt. Started street for the last 12. I ride about 15-20 miles per day. Then will lay down about 100 miles every other weekend, in the hills beating up the twisties. I ride in the sun, in the rain, and I adore riding in the snow. Seriously, if you take it easy and you go out early morning on fresh snow, it is cathardic<sp>. I can get my bike to do most anything I want or need it too. I have been actively working on my street skills though. So many years in the dirt and flat track left me with an odd style(kinda like supermoto). Trying to work on a more traditional style of street ride now. Especially as I stepped down to the 695, the rear wheel doesn't want to break loose as easily as it did on my bigger higher hp bikes so backin' it in don't work. It's all a constant growing process and I think it's when you grow over-confident and stop attactively paying attention to what you are doing that you get bit in the ass.
Quote from: Statler on September 12, 2008, 12:45:43 PM
And how do you know how fast your bike can turn to dodge that road debris if you haven't cranked the bars hard at speed...in a way you'll never ever do as 'practice' on a public road.
Other than speeds and lean angles, don't forget about braking!!!
I learned a LOT about the braking capabilities of my bike when I hit the track. Prior to getting on the track, I had NEVER hit the brakes on the street as hard as I was consistantly doing on the track. I want to say that it was after my second track session that I noticed the rotors were bluish. I have a lot more confidence in the braking abilities of my bike(s), now.