I just got done painting the rad and cooler black on my S4Rt. I used eastwood's rad paint for the fins, and some satin black duplicolor for the end tanks. 3-4 coats of each and everything is looking good.
I plan on using evans NPR-r coolant for my monster. I was going to pull the plastic overflow bottle out and paint it black to make it less noticable, but now I'm thinking of ditching it altogether.
In addition, my fans have never kicked on, ever. Highest the temp ever got was in the mid 90's here, and my temp climbed to 212deg one day while waiting for a wreck to clear. 99.9% of the time it's in the mid 170's....even when stopped waiting on the wreck @212 deg, the fans wern't on.
Loose the fans?
Loose the overflow?
Whatcha think? [drink]
I wouldn't ditch the overflow bottle, it's a necessary part to allow the cooling system to purge air out and slurp coolant in to replace it.
You could remove the fans, but then it's all on *you* to watch the temp religiously.
My 996 track bike has no fans...
It runs fine as long as I'm moving...
It also get hot in no time at all if I sit still.
I'll double check, but I don't think the evans coolant expands at all. In fact, I don't believe there is any pressrizing of the rad system after switching over the evans NPG.
Please post pics when you bolt up the newly painted radiator. :)
I will update my "Project S4Rt" thread when I get it all back together. LOTS of powdercoated goodies I'm waiting on to get here. [wine]
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 03, 2008, 07:48:45 PM
I'll double check, but I don't think the evans coolant expands at all. In fact, I don't believe there is any pressrizing of the rad system after switching over the evans NPG.
I believe Boyles' Law will disagree with you...
PV=nrT
Evans isn't water based at all, it's 100% Propylene Glycol. 370 degree boiling point at zero pressure. I'll have to call on monday, but I'm pretty sure I can cap off the overflow and go :)
I took a quick skim through their website, tech stuff here:
http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm (http://www.evanscooling.com/html/tech1.htm)
I'm a bit concerned about the increased viscosity, and lower specific heat, of the NPG versus the traditional 50/50 water/EG mix.
Unless I'm missing something, the higher viscosity will make your water pump work harder.
The lower specific heat means it absorbs less heat per pound, but whether that will make the cooling system work better or worse, I'm not sure... heat transfer is a complicated deal.
It'd be good to have Howie in on this, he may be able to shed some light.
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 03, 2008, 09:49:13 PM
Evans isn't water based at all, it's 100% Propylene Glycol. 370 degree boiling point at zero pressure. I'll have to call on monday, but I'm pretty sure I can cap off the overflow and go :)
So you're telling me you can put a sealed metal tank of that stuff in a fire and it won't explode?
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 03, 2008, 09:49:13 PM
Evans isn't water based at all, it's 100% Propylene Glycol. 370 degree boiling point at zero pressure. I'll have to call on monday, but I'm pretty sure I can cap off the overflow and go :)
Boyles Law isn't based on water..
It's about pressure volume and temp
Quote from: ducpainter on October 04, 2008, 04:56:38 AM
Boyles Law isn't based on water..
It's about pressure volume and temp
+1con boyles law , for 1 thing unless you hook a vacum pump up it will be pressurized to 14.7 psi thats what the air pressure is at sea level , 2 you will have to change radiator cap because of the one way valve, 3 because of expansion of metal how are you going to stop vapor locking just my 2cents
The question that needs to be resolved. Will the system retain the coolant when it is subjected to expansion at its maxium operating temperature?
I agree with both ducpainter and Speeddog. If you heat any liquid it will expand, including propylene glycol. If memory serves me well, the expansion rate is higher than ethylene glycol. Speeddog is also correct about heat transfer and the viscosity of pure propylene glycol. I don't know if the viscosity or heat transfer would be an issue, but I certainly would worry about heat transfer in city traffic. Read Evan's table table:
http://www.evanscooling.com/main27.htm
Their web site is telling you you do not need to pressurize the system or only need to pressurize it a little because the boiling point is so high. I'm not suggesting you add water to the Evans product since I they ereccomend using it straight but do keep in mind you may find you are running higher coolant temperatures. This will not be a problem for the bike since it will not boil over or cavitate easily, but may not be great for your comfort.
Hmmm...might just be something I need to try. I've spoken with a few other people who have run it....all say you really don't even need a rad cap except to keep the coolant from splashing out.
Yes yes, I understand normal ATM is 29.92/14.7psi, but I'm talking about the pressure inside the coolant system. If there is little to no pressure, and no chance of boil over, when why would I need a reservoir for it?
Hrrmm....and then I find a few dirt track articles that say to have a puke tank just incase - granted, they are talking about the belt coming off the water pump and running coolant temps around 325 deg to finish a race....
I'll be pulling my overflow tank out, and painting it black now I see, just incase [thumbsup]
I'll probably chicken out on leaving the fans off as well.
Potentially useless post/thread I just made, feel free to wipe it off the map :D
not useless. i learned something and i'm running an aircooled.
Just remember, there's a word for a closed, heated system.
That word is "bomb."
I looked at the website - very interesting. There is a link for use in motorcycles there. I can see that it will expand some. Maybe if the system is not completely full when it is cold, it could expand inside the system as the engine warms up? There should be a way to calculate the expansion rate of this stuff.
http://www.evanscooling.com/main27.htm (http://www.evanscooling.com/main27.htm)
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 03, 2008, 06:13:17 PM
I just got done painting the rad and cooler black on my S4Rt. I used eastwood's rad paint for the fins, and some satin black duplicolor for the end tanks. 3-4 coats of each and everything is looking good.
I plan on using evans NPR-r coolant for my monster. I was going to pull the plastic overflow bottle out and paint it black to make it less noticable, but now I'm thinking of ditching it altogether.
In addition, my fans have never kicked on, ever. Highest the temp ever got was in the mid 90's here, and my temp climbed to 212deg one day while waiting for a wreck to clear. 99.9% of the time it's in the mid 170's....even when stopped waiting on the wreck @212 deg, the fans wern't on.
Loose the fans?
Loose the overflow?i wouldnt ditch the bottle.if you dont like the look what about a set of pods and then go to a wrecking yard and find say a yamaha 125 bottle which will fit neatly under your tank
out of view.
Whatcha think? [drink]
Quote from: Bill in OKC on October 04, 2008, 07:02:38 PM
I looked at the website - very interesting. There is a link for use in motorcycles there. I can see that it will expand some. Maybe if the system is not completely full when it is cold, it could expand inside the system as the engine warms up? There should be a way to calculate the expansion rate of this stuff.
http://www.evanscooling.com/main27.htm (http://www.evanscooling.com/main27.htm)
There is, but it's not worth doing. You will be running a heavy liquid in the cooling system, and not enough of it until it expands. This is not a good plan.
Keep the fans, paint the overflow. Who knows-someday you may end up crossing the desert.
Quote from: someguy on October 05, 2008, 10:00:10 AM
There is, but it's not worth doing. You will be running a heavy liquid in the cooling system, and not enough of it until it expands. This is not a good plan.
That assumes an un-pressurised system.
If the increase in pressure caused by the expansion of the coolant is less than the setting of the cap relief, there will be no overflow.
It can be calculated, the problem is there is very little data on this product pertaining to its coefficient of thermal expansion. The coefficient for water varies with temperature (unlike solids) this would be true for aqueous ethylene glycol solutions also. I am not sure that polypropylene glycol has a linear relationship or varies in a similar manner to that of water.
The question to be resolved "In a closed system what would be the final pressure caused by thermal expansion of 2.7 liters of polypropylene glycol contained within when heated to a temperature of 110°C " assume that the initial volume of 2.7 liters is at atmospheric pressure and a temperature of 20 °C, and that the volume is contained.
The answer would eliminate speculation on what might happen.
Anyone care to step up to the plate?
Quote from: Capo on October 05, 2008, 01:21:03 PM
That assumes an un-pressurised system.
If the increase in pressure caused by the expansion of the coolant is less than the setting of the cap relief, there will be no overflow.
It can be calculated, the problem is there is very little data on this product pertaining to its coefficient of thermal expansion. The coefficient for water varies with temperature (unlike solids) this would be true for aqueous ethylene glycol solutions also. I am not sure that polypropylene glycol has a linear relationship or varies in a similar manner to that of water.
The question to be resolved "In a closed system what would be the final pressure caused by thermal expansion of 2.7 liters of polypropylene glycol contained within when heated to a temperature of 110°C " assume that the initial volume of 2.7 liters is at atmospheric pressure and a temperature of 20 °C, and that the volume is contained.
The answer would eliminate speculation on what might happen.
Anyone care to step up to the plate?
The OP was suggesting an unpressurized system.
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 04, 2008, 08:30:36 AM
Hmmm...might just be something I need to try. I've spoken with a few other people who have run it....all say you really don't even need a rad cap except to keep the coolant from splashing out.
Also, no interest in stepping up to the plate. I have the math, won't bother with it-IMO it's a bad plan.
Just wondering, but at what point does the rad cap blow off pressure into the overflow container?
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 05, 2008, 02:59:28 PM
Just wondering, but at what point does the rad cap blow off pressure into the overflow container?
Depends on the cap-some come with different pressures.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system7.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/cooling-system7.htm)
http://newcarbuyingguide.com/index.php/news/main/2524/event=view (http://newcarbuyingguide.com/index.php/news/main/2524/event=view)
Thanks for the links, I know how a coolant system works. But if the pressure required to release fluid from the cap is more than what the pressure with evans coolant would be, there should be no reason to run an overflow, right?
One of the benifits on their page is " a complely Hermetically Sealed system". Thats airtight I believe.
I'm gonna run some in my 999. Since it's got an aftermarket catch can it will be easy to see whats going on.
Here is a table:
http://www.mrc-eng.com/Downloads/Brine%20Properties.pdf (http://www.mrc-eng.com/Downloads/Brine%20Properties.pdf)
You need to have either an expansion tank or enough room in the radiator top tank like they used to use on old cars when the tank was on top and the cores ran vertical. Even then, there was an overflow tube under the pressure cap in case the coolant got too hot to be contained by the reservoir.
Quote from: howie on October 05, 2008, 06:07:52 PM
You need to have either an expansion tank or enough room in the radiator top tank like they used to use on old cars when the tank was on top and the cores ran vertical. Even then, there was an overflow tube under the pressure cap in case the coolant got too hot to be contained by the reservoir.
Table is a bit over my head, or pehaps I'm just looking for an easily explainable answer. If the Evans waterless coolant boils at 400 deg (i'll never see more than half that), and runs with pressure in the 2-5 psi range, and the ducati rad pressure cap is a 15psi cap, why would any coolant be purged from the system if pressure never exceeded the cap's pressure?
Is it just to burp the system that I need an overflow?
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 05, 2008, 08:15:30 PM
Table is a bit over my head, or pehaps I'm just looking for an easily explainable answer. If the Evans waterless coolant boils at 400 deg (i'll never see more than half that), and runs with pressure in the 2-5 psi range, and the ducati rad pressure cap is a 15psi cap, why would any coolant be purged from the system if pressure never exceeded the cap's pressure?
Is it just to burp the system that I need an overflow?
The reason you can run no or low pressure with the Evans Coolant is the high boiling point. In a system using a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol with 0 PSI the boiling point will be slightly over 212
0 (I don't remember the exact number and I aint going to look it up). Add 15 PSI and you raise the boiling point to about 265
0. If I remember correctly, the fans on your bike are set at 218
0. In traffic and in certain parts of the engine the temperatures can go well above 218
0, so they use the pressure cap to raise the pressure , raising the boiling point to a safe level for both you and the engine. If the pressure goes above 14 PSI the cap relieves excess pressure so the system doesn't burst.
The table is expansion rate, not pressure. In other words, how much the coolant will increase in volume with temperature. When the volume increases, it needs to go somewhere. Since the table is for a 50/50 mix the numbers would not be accurate for straight Evans. If you noticed, they use a 50/50 mix. Why? This is because propylene glycol is a poor medium for heat transfer Water is.
Quote from: TAftonomos on October 05, 2008, 02:59:28 PM
Just wondering, but at what point does the rad cap blow off pressure into the overflow container?
The cap on my S4R is marked with 1.5. I assume this is bar which is quite high.
Quote from: Capo on October 05, 2008, 10:41:30 PM
The cap on my S4R is marked with 1.5. I assume this is bar which is quite high.
Sure is. 1 bar = 14.5 PSI.
Quote from: Capo on October 05, 2008, 10:41:30 PM
The cap on my S4R is marked with 1.5. I assume this is bar which is quite high.
Interesting.
My S4 cap is marked 1.2.
That's a big jump in system pressure.
I did what you want on my S4R. I removed the stock overflow bottle and the fans. I did, however, mount a smaller overflow bottle on my rad that I made up out of an oil sample bottle I got from work. It has a volume of about 100ml, and I put enough in it that I can see it in the bottle when it's cold, and it dosen't overflow when it gets hot. I've never had a problem with my bike overheating on the street or the track with the fans removed.
I would strongly recomend against removing your overflow bottle completely, or blacking it right out, because it is the best indication you've got about wether you've got any coolant in your cooling system. If you develop a leak, the level drops out of your bottle. You take a look before you go for a ride, see something's wrong, and deal with it befor it becomes a major. Otherwise, you have to pull your rad cap all the time to check your levels.
That's just my 2 cents.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 06, 2008, 10:05:10 AM
Interesting.
My S4 cap is marked 1.2.
That's a big jump in system pressure.
My big :-[ I checked it and its 1.2 (17.5psi) at which point the coolant temperature would be 123.5° C (254.3° F)
Its been tried and tested
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=22601&page=2 (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/showthread.php?t=22601&page=2)
Just to add more amusement to this thread... Peak antifreeze compares and contrasts EG and PG
http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_a.html (http://www.peakantifreeze.com/tech/tech_a.html)
There are several pages of this - it just keeps getting better as you click the 'next' button
I am sure there are differences between evans and peak - additives and whatever so - this is for general EG/PG knowledge only
you guys do realize that using the evans isn't recommended as an antifreeze, but a replacement coolant. No water is used (or recommended!).
Indeed, although Polypropylene Glycol is miscible with water, Evans is quite specific in removing all existing coolant from the system
That is a good point to keep in mind. I've read so much about antifreeze my head hurts now. I need some bacon bad.