When you look at the specs for a bike, trying to get an idea of how it would ride compared to what you own, do you look at torque or at the HP? I am mainly interested in how strong it pulls before reaching 110 miles.... so, correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't torque be what I should be looking at then? My S4R (996) pulls like a freight train and I am used to that power delivery, which is FUN!!! Will a new Monster 1100, Motard or S2R 1000, be similar to my S4R from 0 to 110mph in example?
I gathered the power and torque specs for analysis and it looks like the motard and the 1100M has more torque at lower RPMs than my S4R. So will these bikes pull harder than my S4R?.. or the HP affects torque and my bike definitely pulls harder/faster?
I've never ridden a motard or an S2R 1k, so if you have ridden an S4R 996 and also the others, which one did you feel pulled harder (was more fun)
S4R 2005
POWER 117 hp @ 8750 rpm
Torque 73 lb-ft @ 7000 rpm
Motard:
POWER 90 hp @ 7750 rpm
TORQUE 76 lb-ft @ 4750 rpm
MONSTER 1100:
Power 95 hp @ 7.500 rpm
Torque* 76 lb-ft @ 6.000 rpm
MONSTER S2R 1000:
POWER 95 hp @ 8000 rpm
Torque* 69 lb-ft @ 6000 rpm
your HP affects top end. the LBft gets you there. plus gearing etc.
honestly, add weight into that equation.
S4R 2005
POWER 117 hp @ 8750 rpm
Torque 73 lb-ft @ 7000 rpm
Weight 390 lbs still needing fuel/oil and coolant
Power to weight 3.33 lb/hp
Motard:
POWER 90 hp @ 7750 rpm
TORQUE 76 lb-ft @ 4750 rpm
Weight 395 lbs only needing fuel and oil
p/w 4.38 lb/hp
MONSTER 1100:
Power 95 hp @ 7.500 rpm
Torque* 76 lb-ft @ 6.000 rpm
Weight 370 lbs only needing fuel and oil
p/w 3.89 lb/hp
MONSTER S2R 1000:
POWER 95 hp @ 8000 rpm
Torque* 69 lb-ft @ 6000 rpm
Weight 392 lbs only needing fuel and oil
p/w 4.12 lb/hp
Monster 1100 has at least a 20lb advantage (add in coolant to the equation) with a 3 LB-ft gain on the S4R
It has a 22lb advantage with a 7LB-ft gain on the S2R
and a 25lb advantage and a 5hp gain on the Motard
the only thing is lost to the S4R is the top end of 22 hp but you are comparing an air cooled 2V vs a watercooled 4V on that.
also the Monster 1100 gets under the 4lb per hp ratio. albeit slightly, but significantly better than the motard and only .5lb per hp behind the S4R
realistically, you need to see the dyno curve to see what kind of power it makes. becasue that top end power is just that, top end power.
it also depends on how long it takes the engien to reach max power, and how your bike accelerates, which again, are all bike/engine specific.
If you want power at lower RPMs, you want torque.
If you want power at higher RPMS, you want HP.
A gross simplification (and technically worthless), but not too far off the mark.....
Good post Raux, power to weight ratio is very good indicator of a vehicles perfomance potential. The objective of mods I'm currently carrying out is 3lb/hp.
Quote from: He Man on October 06, 2008, 08:24:53 PM
realistically, you need to see the dyno curve to see what kind of power it makes. becasue that top end power is just that, top end power.
it also depends on how long it takes the engien to reach max power, and how your bike accelerates, which again, are all bike/engine specific.
if you are only looking at the above specs.. and base your opinion from that alone.. then higher torque at lower rpms i.e motard vs M1100 would pull harder and even harder than my S4R? (in my opinion pull harder=more fun)
I wish I could get on a motard right now and just try it.. anyone who can chime in and validate the statements above from riding a motard and the S4R? which engine is more fun to you?
Quote from: Capo on October 06, 2008, 08:56:26 PM
Good post Raux, power to weight ratio is very good indicator of a vehicles perfomance potential. The objective of mods I'm currently carrying out is 3lb/hp.
thanks. when you look at the numbers the Monster 1100 is a bike with a lot of potential.
imagine the p/w with the S4RS engine .
that's 130 hp and and only 368 lbs. (the S4RS is 2 lbs lighter than the S2R) for a p/w ratio of 2.8 lbs/HP
WOAH!
Quote from: Cucciolo on October 06, 2008, 08:59:12 PM
if you are only looking at the above specs.. and base your opinion from that alone.. then higher torque at lower rpms i.e motard vs M1100 would pull harder and even harder than my S4R? (in my opinion pull harder=more fun)
I wish I could get on a motard right now and just try it.. anyone who can chime in and validate the statements above from riding a motard and the S4R? which engine is more fun to you?
I never made an opinion about hte above specs.
i said they are all PEAK powers. aka, an DS1100 may make more low end torque, but as your are accelerating out of that max torque zone, what happens? does the tq drop off, or does it just level out?
an S4R may make tq at high end, but does it shoot up there, or is it a steady climb up there? the tq and the HP compliment each other up there.
The Hypermotard also sports a different seating position and different geometry, so the perception of speed is up to the user. if you compare the S2R1000 and S4R it would be much more fair. and i can tell you for a fact that the bike is extremely fun down low. Never rode an S4R (well only around the block so i never hit it hard)
Quote from: He Man on October 06, 2008, 09:11:24 PM
an S4R may make tq at high end, but does it shoot up there, or is it a steady climb up there?
Here's my steady climb, 2006 S4R...
(http://byfiles.storage.live.com/y1pzIbWjIuGwZOCtiAsbUQ7QtKRjvF9Xc_7n4s6Irw-IUVn7FgHKvnupoeYbL5HMdWr)
Quote from: He Man on October 06, 2008, 09:11:24 PM
I never made an opinion about hte above specs.
i said they are all PEAK powers. aka, an DS1100 may make more low end torque, but as your are accelerating out of that max torque zone, what happens? does the tq drop off, or does it just level out?
an S4R may make tq at high end, but does it shoot up there, or is it a steady climb up there? the tq and the HP compliment each other up there.
The Hypermotard also sports a different seating position and different geometry, so the perception of speed is up to the user. if you compare the S2R1000 and S4R it would be much more fair. and i can tell you for a fact that the bike is extremely fun down low. Never rode an S4R (well only around the block so i never hit it hard)
I never said you made an opinion based on the specs.. that's why I asked for your opinion based ONLY on the numbers alone. I see your point about being a different bike for a motard, but I would be able to feel how hard it pulls no matter what the seating position is. from that around the block ride.. you must have noticed the S4R's power... if you did that same short ride on your bike.. at low speed even.. how do you compare them?
oh. my mistake, i thought you gave me an opinion. You're asking for one.
Honestly, cant tell you. I was on a bike drought. Sold my M944 and sat on the S4R almost 3 months later, so my mind made it feel insanely good (hell if i was on a ninja 250 i would of probably felt the same way! lol)
this is a tq curve of a S2R1000 with DPECU(HM)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2217/2373038744_bd8b20e914_o.jpg)
you can see the difference. 2v is basically ON. and steady. 4v is a gradual build up.
I guess this is why the S4R is much much more powerful on the take of. in a few seconds your engine is running at a higher RPM and your tq and hp carry through. a 2v stops making power at before 8,000 rpm. the 4v's sweet spot is at 8,000rpm. so you cant really compare. i really like my DS1000, but it i do most of my traffic gunning and urban riding at 5,000+rpm, and i find it manageable. If i had a 4v, i might be wheelieing by accident. you cant power wheelie at 2v in 2nd gear at 5,000rpm. not without a pumping the front and slipping the clutch like a madman. People say you can power wheelie a 4v in 3rd gear....so theres your difference lol.
People claim the 4v is much smoother too. Thats something you'll have to ask of an owner who has both bikes though.
wow, putting the two side by side you can really see the difference on how the 2v vs 4v make torque.
the 2v is quick torque at low rpm and has a broad flat torque curve giving you a high percentage of max for a long time. it gives you 94% of max torque as low as 3800 rpm. while the 4v needs nearly 5500 rpm to reach 94% and is peaky and not flat at all. meaning you really have to rev it up to get that torque to the road. while you can twist the throttle anywhere on the 2v and get pull.
Yeah, but if you look at the numbers in stead of the percentages, you see that they are very close up to 6k rpm. At that point the 4v just continues and the 2v steadily drops off. I you take a look at the 55 lb-ft line; the 2v drops below it at 8k rpm whereas the 4v stays above it up until 10k rpm.
Quote from: IdZer0 on October 07, 2008, 12:12:00 AM
Yeah, but if you look at the numbers in stead of the percentages, you see that they are very close up to 6k rpm. At that point the 4v just continues and the 2v steadily drops off. I you take a look at the 55 lb-ft line; the 2v drops below it at 8k rpm whereas the 4v stays above it up until 10k rpm.
true, but also the 4v has about 8 to 10 more lb-ft. that's why i was comparing percentages. and unless you are screaming on the track do you shift at 10K?
the 2v has more streetable torque is my assessment. but i've never ridden a 4v. just looking at the charts. and i'm not an expert. just love the 2v air cooled bikes. in another thread they talk about how the monsters will stay aircooled and the new figher will be 4v watercooled. so point is moot on monsters for the future.
Quote from: Cucciolo on October 06, 2008, 07:26:16 PM
I've never ridden a motard or an S2R 1k, so if you have ridden an S4R 996 and also the others, which one did you feel pulled harder (was more fun)
My butt dyno says 2V 1000 pulls a harder low down. Some of that may be because of the torque curve more than the raw torque numbers. 4V kicks the shit out of it higher up.
A big single cylinder motard will put out tree stumps starting at about 431 rpm. Course, it runs out of air at 1.4k rpm, so you can't rev it too much. [cheeky]
last week i could've shown you a graph [laugh] oh well.
all engines of the same size will make similar peak torque, just the rpm at which it occurs will vary, and with that the intensity of power delivery. you accelerate mostly at low to mid rpm, so that's where you need the power on a road bike. power is torque x rpm, so for more power you need more torque. for more torque you need more capacity.
the s2r1000 will make you think "wow, this things got some grunt".
the s4rs with make you think "holy sweet mother of jesus" as the front comes up in second and puts you into next week with a smile a mile wide.
whereas the s4r will get you to next week a tad slower. less air flow potential through the heads, slightly less power, similar torque and at similar rpm.
how much torque and where it occurs defines how it rides pretty much, altho without seeing a curve it can be a bit deceptive. power is a consequence of that. generally the bigger the engine the better the streetbike, as you have the grunt to get you going.
if you've ridden an inline 4 600 and had to count time passing as you wait for it to come on then you want a bigger engine. but, once you've reached 12,000 in first it's all go because from then on you're in the power. on a drag strip the main difference wil be 60 ft times for instance, with similar power you get similar trap mph even if the time is slower.
if you don't want to rev it get a bigger engine. if you want to go really fast get a bigger, powerful engine.
On top of al the great advice so far, you also have to take into account the sort of riding you're likely to be doing. A 4V motor is still going to feel much stronger if you're doing nothing but accelerating and decelerating because of the way the engine makes power. With the wide flat torque curve of a 2V motor, it's going to feel more responsive in traffic and in everyday driving. This was one reason many reviewers noted that the less powerful ST3 was actually easier to ride than the ST4 that preceded it even though the ST4 made a lot more power. The mill in the ST4 was just so peaky it didn't make for a "casual" sort of ride.
Then again, if you don't want casual [evil]
the 2v motors generally have narrower, more rounded torque curves than the 4v motors and a lower peak torque output for a given capacity. the st3 makes about 10% more torque than the st4 because it's about 10% bigger, but power wise it makes about 7% less. all std the st4s makes similar peak power to the st4, but has the midrange of the st3, as they're the same capacity. comparatively the st4 feels slow, but with better top end and therefore like it needs to be revved harder to work due to the comparative shape and lower peak of the torque curve - the st3 curve is much more like a 2v curve, but with a broader spread. the st4 has the older, longer duration inlet cams which at std settings would exaggerate that.
play with the cam timing tho and you can change the way they feel quite markedly. you can even make a 748 feel like it has no top end. i played with a demo 1000ss and varied the cam timing by 15 degrees from 106 to 121 inlet centerline. made 4% less peak torque at 121, but felt much different in terms of delivery and torque curve width. 121 had 3 less hp under 7,000, the curves crossed at 7,500 and it had 5 more at 8,500. it felt slower, but much more top endy, whereas 106 felt like an old long manifold carby motor with lots of midrange, but no top end and sort of boring in a straight line at least.
you can make an st4 feel like that too, and make an st3 feel like it has to be revved hard.
Here is a dyno of my S4R, the dashed line was 'out of the box' the solid line was after the mods. There is a real kick in the ass at 6.5k.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm143/Tarugo996/s4rpower.jpg)
Quote from: Capo on October 07, 2008, 10:40:59 AM
Here is a dyno of my S4R, the dashed line was 'out of the box' the solid line was after the mods. There is a real kick in the ass at 6.5k.
WOW... that is a huge difference in performance from stock.. what mods did you do.. and if you were to choose one only, which one has the grater impact on the graph?
Thats the DP full 50mm Termis kit that includes SPS cams, also the heads were flowed by John Hackett. It was all done at the same time so I couldn't tell you what contributes to how much.
The engine is back with him now for further mods.