This was stolen from the bay area riders forum, but I think it's worthy of derbying.
One of the most common questions new sport bike riders have is, "What kind of bike should I get?" This question is asked so often that I created a standardized response. Please keep in mind that these are the views and opinions of one person (albeit countless other also hold them) With that said, on we go...
Getting ANY modern 600cc sport bike for a first ride is a bad idea (far, far, far worse is a 1000cc). In fact, it may be nothing more than an expensive form of suicide. Here are a few reasons why;
1. Knowledge of Subject Matter
When anyone starts something new they find themselves at the most basic point of the "beginner's mind". This is to say that they are at the very start of the learning curve. They are not even aware of what it is that they don't know. A personal example of this is when I began Shotokan Karate. The first day of class I had no idea what an "inside-block" was, let alone how to do it with correct form, power, and consistency. After some time, and a lot of practice, I could only then realize how bad my form really was. Then, and only then, was I able to begin the process of improving it. I had to become knowledgeable that inside-blocks even existed before I was aware that I could not do them correctly. I had to learn what the correct elements of inside-block were, before I realized that I did not have those elements. After I learned, I was then able to aspire towards the proper elements. This example is to illustrate the point that it takes knowledge OF something in order to understand how that something works, functions, performs, etc. Now lets return to the world of motorcycles. A beginner has NO motorcycle experience. They are not even aware of the power, mistakes, handling, shifting, turning dynamics etc. of any bike, let alone a high performance sport bike. Not only does the beginner lack the SKILL of how to ride a motorcycle, they also lack the knowledge of WHAT skills they need to learn. Acquiring those skills comes only with experience and learning from mistakes. As one moves through the learning curve they begin to amass new information...they also make mistakes. A ton of them.
2. The Learning Curve
While learning to do something, your first efforts are often sloppy and full of mistakes. Without mistakes the learning process is impossible. A mistake on a sport bike can be fatal. The things new riders need to learn above all else is smooth throttle control, proper speed, and how to lean going into turns. A 600cc bike can reach 60mph in about 3 to 5 seconds. A simple beginners mishap with that much power and torque can cost you your life (or a few limbs) before you even knew what happened. Grab a handful of throttle going into a turn and you may end up crossing that little yellow line on the road into on-coming traffic...**shudder**. Bikes that are more forgiving of mistakes are far safer (not to mention, more fun) to learn on.
Ask yourself this question; in which manner would you rather learn to walk on a circus high-wire (1) with a 4x4 board that is 2 feet off the ground (2) with a wire that is 20 feet off the ground? Most sensible people would choose (1). The reason why is obvious. Unfortunately safety concerns with a first motorcycle aren't as apparent as they are in the example above. However, the wrong choice of what equipment to learn on can be just as deadly, regardless of how safe, careful, and level-headed you intend to be.
3. "But I Will be Safe, Responsible, and Level-Headed While Learning".
Sorry, but this line of reasoning doesn't cut it. To be safe you also need SKILL (throttle control, speed, leaning, etc). Skill comes ONLY with experience. To gain experience you must ride in real traffic, with real cars, and real dangers. Before that experience is developed, you are best suited with a bike that won't severely punish you for minor mistakes. A cutting edge race bike is not one of these bikes.
Imagine someone saying, "I want to learn to juggle, but I'm going to start by learning with chainsaws. But don't worry. I intend to go slow, be careful, stay level-headed, and respect the power of the chainsaws while I'm learning". Like the high-wire example, the proper route here isn't hard to see. Be "careful" all you want, go as "slow" as you want, be as "cautious" as you want, be as "respectful" as you want...your still juggling chainsaws! The "level-headed" thing to do in this situation is NOT to start with chainsaws. Without a foundation in place of HOW to juggle there is only a small level of safety you can aspire towards. Plain and simple, it's just better to learn juggling with tennis balls than it with chainsaws. The same holds true for learning to ride a motorcycle. Start with a solid foundation in the basics, and then move up. Many people say that "maturity" will help you be safe with motorcycles. They are correct. However, maturity has NOTHING to do with learning to ride a motorcycle. Maturity is what you SHOULD use when deciding what kind of bike to buy so that you may learn to ride a motorcycle safely.
4. "I Don't Want a Bike I'll Outgrow"
Please. Did your Momma put you in size 9 shoes at age 2? Get with the program. It is far better to maximize the performance of a smaller motorcycle and get "bored" with it than it is to mess-up your really fast bike (not mention messing yourself up) and not being able to ride at all. Power is nothing without control.
5. "I Don't Want to Waste Money on a Bike I'll Only Have for a Short Period of Time" (i.e. cost)
Smaller, used bikes have and retain good resale value. This is because other sane people will want them as learner bikes. You'll prolly be able to sell a used learner bike for as much as you paid for it. If you can't afford to upgrade in a year or two, then you definitely can't afford to wreck the bike your dreaming about. At the very least, most new riders drop bikes going under 20MPH, when the bike is at its most unstable periods. If you drop your brand new bike, fresh off the showroom floor, while your learning (and you will), you've just broken a directional, perhaps a brake or clutch lever, cracked / scrapped the fairings ($300.00 each to replace), messed-up the engine casing, messed-up the bar ends, etc. It's better and cheaper to drop a used bike that you don't care about than one you just spent $8,500 on. Fortunately, most of these types of accidents do not result in serious physical injury. It's usually just a big dent in your pride and...
6. EGO.
Worried about looking like chump on a smaller bike? Well, your gonna look like the biggest idiot ever on your brand new, but messed-up bike after you've dropped it a few times. You'll also look really dumb with a badass race bike that you stall 15 times at a red light before you can get into gear. Or even better, how about a nice R6 that you can't ride more than 15mph around a turn because you don't know how to counter-steer correctly? Yeah, your gonna be really cool with that bike, huh? Any real rider would give you props for going about learning to ride the *correct* way (i.e. on a learner bike). If you're stressed about impressing someone with a "cool" bike, or embarrassed about being on smaller bike, then your not "mature enough" to handle the responsibility of ANY motorcycle. Try a bicycle. After you've grow-up ("matured"), revisit the idea of something with an engine.
7. "Don't Ask for Advice if You Don't Want to Hear a Real Answer".
A common pattern:
1. Newbie asks for advice on a 1st bike (Newbie wants to hear certain answers)
2. Experienced riders advise Newbie against a 600cc bike for a first ride (this is not what Newbie wanted to hear).
3. Newbie says and thinks, "Others mess up while learning, but that wont happen to me" (as if Newbie is invincible, holds superpowers, never makes mistakes, has a "level head", or has a skill set that exceeds the majority of the world, etc).
4. Experienced riders explain why a "level head" isn't enough. You also need SKILL, which can ONLY be gained via experience. (Newbie thinks he has innate motorcycle skills)
5. Newbie makes up excuses as to why he is "mature" enough to handle a 600cc bike". (skill drives motorcycles, not maturity)
6. Newbie, with no knowledge about motorcycles, totally disregards all the advice he asked for in the first place. (which brings us right back to the VERY FIRST point I made about "knowledge of subject matter").
7. Newbie goes out and buys a R6, CBR, GSX, 6R, etc. Newbie is scared of the power. Being scared of your bike is the LAST thing you want. Newbie gets turned-off to motorcycles, because of fear, and never gets to really experience all the fun that they can really be. Or worse, Newbie gets in a serious accident.
8. The truth of the matter is that Newbie was actually never really looking for serious advice. What he really wanted was validation and / or approval of a choice he was about to make or already had made. When he received real advice instead of validation he became defensive about his ability to handle a modern sport bike as first ride (thus defending the choice he had made). Validation of a poor decision isn't going to replace scratched bodywork on your bike. It isn't going put broken bones back together. It isn't going graft shredded skin back onto your body. It isn't going to teach you to ride a motorcycle the correct way. However, solid advice from experienced riders, when heeded, can help to avoid some of these issues.
I'm not trying to be harsh. I'm being real. Look all over the net. You'll see veteran after veteran telling new riders NOT to get a 600cc bike for a first ride. You'll even see pros saying to start small. Why? Because we hate new riders? Because we don't want others to have cool bikes? Because we want to smash your dreams? Nothing could be further from the truth. The more riders the better (assuming there not squids)! The reason people like me and countless others spend so much time trying to dissuade new riders from 600cc bikes is because we actually care about you. We don't want to see people get hurt. We don't want to see more people die in senseless accidents that could have been totally avoided with a little logic and patients. We want the "sport" to grow in a safe, healthy, and sane way. We want you to be around to ride that R6, CBR600RR, GSX-1000, Habayasu, etc that you desire so badly. However, we just want you to be able to ride it in a safe manner that isn't going to be a threat to yourself or others. A side note, you may see people on the net and elsewhere saying "600cc bike are OK to start with". Look a bit deeper when you see this. The vast majority of people making these statements are new riders* themselves. If you follow their advice you've entered into a situation of the blind leading the blind. This is not something you want to do with motorcycles. You may also hear bike dealers saying that a 600cc is a good starter bike. They are trying to make money off you. Don't listen. *(I consider anyone with under 30,000 miles a noobie)
I have a friend of mine out by San Jose who sought my advise on a first time motorcycle purchase. I echoed many of these points and then suggest a nice new SV650 with ABS.
Three months later, she buys a CBR600. It seems that no matter how much good advice you dish out, when the sales schmuck pushes the $10K sportbike over the $7K starter bike saying how it's just as easy and you'll "grow out of that one in a year" [roll] the buyer relents and goes for the race replica.
I now worry. A lot.
That was a long post, but definitely worth reading. As a noob myself, I am always working on the little things like being smooth on and off the throttle, slowing down BEFORE the turn, and just taking it slow. It is easy to get carried away just on my M900, and I can't imagine how quickly an R6 could get me in trouble.
Good post
1+ [thumbsup]
... we all should remind ourselves who and when we are giving advice to ....
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/83/273147836_a1d4ac6869.jpg?v=0)
I dunno. My first bike was a '95 CBR600. I never had a problem on it. I did have years of dirtbike experience prior, but that hardly prepares you for riding a street bike. However, I knew that I had to be careful and progress at my own pace. I rode that bike for a couple years, sold it for the price I paid for it and then bought a Monster the next year.
Idiots will hurt themselves on any bike. I've seen guys on 250s do really stupid shit too.
I think it just happens to be that the people who generally would pick a modern 600 are usually the kind of people who don't have the kind of restraint necessary. Are there better bikes to learn on than a '08 R6? Of course.
To me, the whole debate is like the motorcycle equivalent to gun control. Do riders kill themselves or do R6s kill riders? Dumb people do dumb things. No matter what they drive/ride/shoot/etc.
On a side note: I've ridden with people who have been "riding for years" who still don't know WTF they're doing. Some people are just never going to be comfortable on a motorcycle and those people, even with their years of experience, are every bit as dangerous as Joe Military on his brand new CBR.
that's what gets me. the whole 'you'll grow out of it' or 'you'll get bored with it'
to me you never stop learning, and seeing that i know my bike can easily do triple digits, i dont think i'll grow out of it. boring... that all depends on the roads you ride...
i agree with the original poster opinion but unfortunately its useless.
like you mentioned you will always have an experienced rider say, " i started with a 1200 ninja i'm fine" to any newbie.
it really doens't matter what anyone thinks. like you mentioned in your posting a person that asks "what should i get" usually has their mind made up already, they are just looking for justification be it a 250 or a 1400 busa.
i say let poeple figure it out on their own. most people are hardheaded to begin with, and really don't want advice.
if they want to risk starting on a 200hp d16 and can afford it as their first experience with motocycles so be it, so long as they only hurt and kill themselves that is OK. if they want to try to start on a 15-30hp bike as a first bike or scooter, so be it, again its their lives they are considering first and foremost and again as long as they only hurt and kill themselves that is OK.
Quote from: darylbowden on October 10, 2008, 10:26:33 PM
I dunno. My first bike was a '95 CBR600. I never had a problem on it. I did have years of dirtbike experience prior, but that hardly prepares you for riding a street bike. However, I knew that I had to be careful and progress at my own pace. I rode that bike for a couple years, sold it for the price I paid for it and then bought a Monster the next year.
Idiots will hurt themselves on any bike. I've seen guys on 250s do really stupid shit too.
I think it just happens to be that the people who generally would pick a modern 600 are usually the kind of people who don't have the kind of restraint necessary. Are there better bikes to learn on than a '08 R6? Of course.
To me, the whole debate is like the motorcycle equivalent to gun control. Do riders kill themselves or do R6s kill riders? Dumb people do dumb things. No matter what they drive/ride/shoot/etc.
On a side note: I've ridden with people who have been "riding for years" who still don't know WTF they're doing. Some people are just never going to be comfortable on a motorcycle and those people, even with their years of experience, are every bit as dangerous as Joe Military on his brand new CBR.
Daryl --- with all due respect, seriously, I agree with everything you said except for the dirt bike experience part. I believe that the years of dirt biking influenced and helped you far more than you may be giving it credit for. I dunno for sure about your personal experience but everyone that I personally know, along with myself, believes that the dirt bike added lots to the whole riding thing.
Whenever I get anyone ask me, I always suggest get a basic 250 dirt bike, road/trailbike. (not some highly strung 2 stroke screamer)
I started off on a Kawasaki KLR250
* Simple reliable bike with a limited amount of power.
* Easy to handle on road with a bit of limited off road use, A good all rounder, that won't bend or break easily if ridden over a gutter/Traffic Island or dropped.
* Tough if you drop it or take a tumble (Dropped mine 4 times will no ill effects)
* When riding on dirt you learn to feel what happens when you slide the front/rear around on the dirt, I strongly feel spending 18 months riding around on dirt tracks was the best experience I could ever have picked up, Now if the S2R moves/slides around under braking or acceleration It doesn't freak me out, Those skills I learnt on dirt have saved me a number of times. (within reason of course, I'm no Casey Stoner or Colin Edwards)
*Easy resale, Legally here in Northern Australia for the first year you can only have a 250 anyway, even with a few marks and scratches a 250 road/trail bike will sell very quickly and easily.
* Learn to ride with limited power, I found you learn to think ahead, you can't rely on the power to get you out of trouble, you learn to watch your surroundings and other drivers, plan ahead for overtaking opportunities or potential danger
* Cheap to maintain and repair, If you break something, most times it's pretty cheap to fix, and dirt riding can be hard on equipment (read expensive) if you don't choose to maintain it, so I find most dirt riders learn very quickly how to do the simple things like cleaning/lubing the chain, cleaning and inspection of there ride.
It may not be suitable for everyone/location, but up here in my part of the world it works pretty well. [thumbsup]
i wish Aprilia would sell the RS 125 in the states.
and i wish states would require under 21 riders to be LESS than 600 cc
same with cars,
europe has the graduated license for cars and bikes.
it works.
so my suggestion should i become a politician is
<16 <125 cc for bikes and no car
<18 <250 cc for bikes and <2.0l for cars
<21 <600cc for bikes and <3.0l for cars
>21 unlimited
now i know there are exceptions. there are I4 small displacement turbos that can scream... but people will get the point.
there will be less kids crashing 300hp mustangs or wrapping themselves around a tree with an R6
I agree that is a good general rule of thumb. However, I had no riding experience and bought a 695 as my first bike. I've been riding for three summers and have 24k miles. I am absolutely thrilled with the 695 as a first bike, and in fact I'll probably keep this bike in my stable for the rest of my life.
I also have a friend who bought a triumph scramber (800cc +) for his first bike and has loved it. I think displacement isn't a good measure to go buy.
I agree with a lot of the things on this thread, especially since I am a newbie. Yes, my first street bike is a 696. Yes, it has a ton of power and yes, I could have gotten a smaller bike to hone my riding skills. If I had listened to my Harley riding brother, I would be on a SR4, but also knew that it would be too much power. Could I have gone even smaller, gotten something used, of course. I probably made the classic immature "newbie" mistake. However...
I spent years of dirt riding which ABSOLUTELY gave me an advantage over a first time rider. Bombing the woods of New England in my youth taught me basic riding controls, the whole concept of foot/clutch/hands/head/body coordination, and most importantly, low speed control (considering you are never fully going flat out in the woods and doing a LOT of body shifting and clutch control). What dirt DIDN'T teach me, was how to deal with all the idiots in cars, not paying attention, talking on the cell phone, pulling out into traffic without looking, cutting each other off, blowing stop signs, not signaling or...you get the picture. And can you tell I live in MA? [bang] Those things I had to learn, regardless of the type or size of motorcycle I am riding.
Anyway, yes, a smaller bike will help the learning curve. But at least for me, the learning curve was short. The other thing outside of SKILL, is confidence. And that will come over time, regardless of the bike you own. And yes, if you are on a smaller bike, confidence might come quicker as your skill improves. But that's up to the individual and everyone is different. But for ME, I like the extra power, especially when I need to get the hell out of the way on the highway. I like to pass people quickly and limit the amount of time spent in people's blind spot. And the power thing leads me to my next comment about maturity.
Making a mature decision not only goes into the kind of bike you SHOULD get or would LIKE to get, but it comes into play when you use the bike, above all else. The most mature decision ANY rider can make is when you pull back on that throttle and how far. A mature rider will know their limitations and work on improving and overcoming those. If you can't lean into the corners yet, go find a parking lot and PRACTICE it. Even experienced riders should take an afternoon and practice basic riding techniques that will save your life. How many people on this forum still practice stopping short? I bet not many.
Bottom line is, get a bike YOU are comfortable with. Know YOUR limitations. Make a mature decision based on a lot of time and research. Know YOUR limitations (yes, I said it again). Don't worry about what others think, since other people aren't in control of your life and a bike is a life and death situation. And PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.
Ride safe everyone...and watch out for the idiots in cars.
maturity is one of the reasons i advocate the age/cc limit.
Quote from: mac900 on October 11, 2008, 01:41:54 AM
Daryl --- with all due respect, seriously, I agree with everything you said except for the dirt bike experience part. I believe that the years of dirt biking influenced and helped you far more than you may be giving it credit for. I dunno for sure about your personal experience but everyone that I personally know, along with myself, believes that the dirt bike added lots to the whole riding thing.
I think it definitely helped, I guess I shouldn't given it more credit. My point in downplaying it was that a ton of people tend to equate dirtbike experience with streetbike experience and while there are many similarities, there are enough differences that it certainly cannot be considered a substitute for street exp, maybe just an augmenter.
well I weigh roughly 220lbs, I don't think anything with less than 62hp is going to move me all that good up a hill... In all seriousness though I think the Ducati 6__ cc engines are a whole different animal than the 4 valve Japnese 6__cc engines... I think a Ducati 620 is the perfect beginner bike for a responsible owner, idiots will fall on anything and they might want to buy something cheaper.
You may have hit this point but I had to eventually skim. I also disagree with the "newbie under 30,000 miles" comment, I think it all depends where you ride- 30k experience in a ghost town hickville will not train you how to deal with heavy aggressive traffic as good as 10k in a mojor city. 30k in a major city will never prepare you to carve the mountain twistys at a good clip, I am saying I don't think it's the quantity of miles that makes the rider but quality of the miles. A lot of people can rack a lot of miles without cars on all sides of them, for me living in or near major cities all the time I think I can deal with heavy traffic and homocidal cab drivers better than most...
Quote from: Raux on October 11, 2008, 08:14:03 AM
maturity is one of the reasons i advocate the age/cc limit.
True, but I know a lot of 21+ folks with no business driving a lawn mower not just because of skill, but also because they are complete knuckleheads. But agree that there should be some laws that take into account general road experience, rider skill level and age. There was a woman in her late thirties in my riding class that had ZERO experience, passed the course (barely) and was issued her certificate to get a bike. She scared the hell out of me at the start and END of the two day sessions.
I'm not sure what my point is with this post, but all I can say is, there are probably a lot of folks out there that shouldn't be riding ANYTHING for a number of reasons.
Quote from: eesnas on October 11, 2008, 08:22:56 AM
well I weigh roughly 220lbs, I don't think anything with less than 62hp is going to move me all that good up a hill... In all seriousness though I think the Ducati 6__ cc engines are a whole different animal than the 4 valve Japnese 6__cc engines... I think a Ducati 620 is the perfect beginner bike for a responsible owner, idiots will fall on anything and they might want to buy something cheaper.
This is another interesting point. Let's say 400 lbs for the bike + 220 lbs for the rider + 50 pounds for gear = 670 lbs or 10.8 lbs per HP. Maybe not exactly ideal but not bad when you figure that an Camry (the best selling cage) weighs 3280 lbs. Add the driver and it's 3500 lbs plus 200 lbs of fuel, oil, water etc and it's 3700 lbs with 158 HP in the base 4 cylinder model (again, very popular) or 23 lbs per HP. So, even on a 62HP bike, a big guy, has at least, twice the power to weight ratio of the average family sedan.
My point is, every motorcycle on the road is going to be faster than the average flow of traffic. And it's true that an idiot can crash a big wheel and fook themselves up, but it's also true that harnessing performance takes skill. There are more factors to take into consideration and when you're learning to perform a complicated activity like riding a motorcycle, an activity that requires a higher degree of attention and concentration than driving a Camry, it's probably best to do it on a machine that allows you to focus on the fundamentals without the added consideration of trying to fathom out the proper braking technique to decelerate from 135 MPH to avoid that Buick that has suddenly appeared in front of you after 2 seconds of indiscretion with the throttle.
Just my $.02
Quote from: darylbowden on October 10, 2008, 10:26:33 PM
On a side note: I've ridden with people who have been "riding for years" who still don't know WTF they're doing. Some people are just never going to be comfortable on a motorcycle and those people, even with their years of experience, are every bit as dangerous as Joe Military on his brand new CBR.
hey, man, i 'm doin' the best i can.... :'(
So I'm a new rider as of June. I got a Monster 696 as my first bike and I'm almost at 550 miles. I do remember reading these types of posts and articles online before getting the monster and yeah I was that self-righteous naive newbie who thought anything less than the 696 wouldn't work for me. Anyway... I'll admit I've dropped it 4 times... all of which I was traveling under 2 mph or in one case I was just walking it. Embarrassing, yes, but one undeniable fact I knew when I got the 696 is that I would drop it and it would get scratched up and that would be the price I'd have to pay for getting it as my first bike. (For all of you wondering: the 696 takes zero-speed drops like a true champ; hardly a scratch beyond the tips of the mirrors, levers and rear levers.) I'll spare you all my harrowing new-experience ride stories, but I'll say that I'm very happy I didn't get anything smaller than the 696 and I'm already itching for more power.
I think what it comes down to is focus and respect. New riders don't always understand how much respect is due to the bike and the throttle. I think my personal experience with cars allowed me to take learning on the 696 at my own pace. I'm 25 now and I've driven in cages for more than 200,000 miles and in 65+ different manual cars without ever having an accident. Not to mention the fact that I got the 696 and have learned how to ride it all in NYC and Brooklyn, NY where there is very little opportunity to take it above 40 mph most of the time... 50mph if you're lucky. Also learning to respect and focus on traffic is a big lesson learned quickly in NYC.
I'm much more confident now than I was when I first got the bike. But there's still a lot of respect and love I have for it. Still no guarantee that I'll go for much longer with out a truly educational crash, but it is possible to start on a 600cc bike and be content and safe. As long as you're not stupid -- ergo you need to know what being stupid is: Take the Class!!!
Really I think a large portion of the problem is that severe lack of mid-size bikes. For a street bike your options are 250, 500, 600, 750, 1000 and up. What happened to the whole 250-500 range? Even at 500cc your options are limited and those bikes don't tend to have the 'cool' factor that a 600/750 has.
I think Kawasaki got it right with the new 250 ninja. That bike looks sharp. If we there was a supply of good looking 350/400cc bikes, that might remove the stigma as people find out how easy and fun smaller bikes are to ride. That of course begs the question of 'if the bikes are available will people ride them, or will the bikes be made available because the consumer demands them?" Right now, there is no demand because new riders are pretty much relegated to a 600cc "beginner's bike."
I've had one acquaintance who works at a dealer say the big problem is the emission rules. I don't know how true that is, but if it is, I find it ludicrous.
Andy
Quote from: derby on October 11, 2008, 09:04:23 AM
hey, man, i 'm doin' the best i can.... :'(
Nah dude, I'm talking about that hack gm2 ;)
Quote from: Privateer on October 11, 2008, 09:29:07 AM
Really I think a large portion of the problem is that severe lack of mid-size bikes. For a street bike your options are 250, 500, 600, 750, 1000 and up. What happened to the whole 250-500 range? Even at 500cc your options are limited and those bikes don't tend to have the 'cool' factor that a 600/750 has.
I think Kawasaki got it right with the new 250 ninja. That bike looks sharp. If we there was a supply of good looking 350/400cc bikes, that might remove the stigma as people find out how easy and fun smaller bikes are to ride. That of course begs the question of 'if the bikes are available will people ride them, or will the bikes be made available because the consumer demands them?" Right now, there is no demand because new riders are pretty much relegated to a 600cc "beginner's bike."
I've had one acquaintance who works at a dealer say the big problem is the emission rules. I don't know how true that is, but if it is, I find it ludicrous.
Andy
ducati had a 400 monster at one time? right? i mean could you imagine if they came out with an entry level monster BELOW the 696 instead of fitting in the 900 like i want. it would really eat into everyone else's profits. plus i wouldnt have to give up the 696 to the wife [thumbsup]
The 696 was my first bike. I've always liked ducatis but thought it would be a little much for a first bike at first. I looked around for other starter bikes like the ninja 250 and the sv650 and so on. I took my MSF course and it was all very natural for me. I said that if I got a 100 on my riding test then I'd go ahead and swing the 696. Sure enough, I got the Monster and haven't regretted it. I haven't tried to lift the front end or ride zigzagging through traffic or without gear. And I probably won't ever do any of those. Do I realise that a mistake can hurt me pretty bad, yeah. But do I feel uncomfortable on my bike no. Certainly the 696 is not a fair comparison to a ZX-6r or a GSX-R 600 but even on those (my brother-in-law has a GSX-R 750 that I've ridden) there is a huge peak in the power curve that comes way after 10k rpms. Most beginning riders will not be flogging the throttle on one of those to hit the huge hp those bikes have. If they are, they are a danger on any bike not just a larger one.
Quote from: Amlethae on October 11, 2008, 09:05:05 AM
So I'm a new rider as of June. I got a Monster 696 as my first bike and I'm almost at 550 miles. I do remember reading these types of posts and articles online before getting the monster and yeah I was that self-righteous naive newbie who thought anything less than the 696 wouldn't work for me. Anyway... I'll admit I've dropped it 4 times... all of which I was traveling under 2 mph or in one case I was just walking it. Embarrassing, yes, but one undeniable fact I knew when I got the 696 is that I would drop it and it would get scratched up and that would be the price I'd have to pay for getting it as my first bike. (For all of you wondering: the 696 takes zero-speed drops like a true champ; hardly a scratch beyond the tips of the mirrors, levers and rear levers.) I'll spare you all my harrowing new-experience ride stories, but I'll say that I'm very happy I didn't get anything smaller than the 696 and I'm already itching for more power.
I think what it comes down to is focus and respect. New riders don't always understand how much respect is due to the bike and the throttle. I think my personal experience with cars allowed me to take learning on the 696 at my own pace. I'm 25 now and I've driven in cages for more than 200,000 miles and in 65+ different manual cars without ever having an accident. Not to mention the fact that I got the 696 and have learned how to ride it all in NYC and Brooklyn, NY where there is very little opportunity to take it above 40 mph most of the time... 50mph if you're lucky. Also learning to respect and focus on traffic is a big lesson learned quickly in NYC.
I'm much more confident now than I was when I first got the bike. But there's still a lot of respect and love I have for it. Still no guarantee that I'll go for much longer with out a truly educational crash, but it is possible to start on a 600cc bike and be content and safe. As long as you're not stupid -- ergo you need to know what being stupid is: Take the Class!!!
See I think people are actually at the greatest risk of being hit from behind... Some guy posted something about the weight to HP ratio of a family sedan compaired to a bike, the thing is you should have a big multiple over the average car, you must ride aggressive to survive in traffic as the guy quoted above probably knows, being in NY etc... If your bike cannot move SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the flow of traffic you run the risk of being run over from behind by some girl in an SUV brushing her hair while talking on the phone and finding her favorite playlist on the I-pod, BOOM from behind you end up dead and she spills a latte [coffee]. the thing is the drivers behind you are the ones likely to do the most damage and without the available HP you can't avoid them. All bikes have brakes to stop you from danger ahead, of course the skill of the rider is needed to operate the brakes correctly to avoid hazards front-facing, for danger approaching from the rear I think it's important to almost always move faster than the general flow of traffic, otherwise you're at risk of being rear ended with every car that passes. I have seen slow riders almost get whaled so many times it's CRAZY and I got banged up sitting at a red light, it's really the biggest danger out there.
My point of quoting the guy above, well he has illustrated the point I forgot to make earlier. No matter what size bike he went down 4 times and it was all due to general lack of balance and probably coordination. I am not the thinnest guy anymore but I was always very "sure footed", pretty good at sports, but mainly I just have a good sense of balance. Despite the fact I put on some lbs recently I still consider myself pretty stong and my balance is still excellent. I know guys in much better shape than me and they drop stuff, trip on the sidewalk, can't shoot a basketball right, my point is this part of "athleticism" is actually really important for the low speed manuvers. If you're a good athlete, strong and coordinated then I am thinking your only reason for dropping 4 times in such a short span is a lack of focus and deliberateness to your actions. One time when I first got the bike I friggin forgot to put my kickstand down, the good thing is I was fast enough and strong enough to catch the bike before it fell, I don't think it means I am a bad rider it was just me lacking focus at that moment and ever since then I ALWAYS make sure to put my kickstand down I will never forget how pissed I would have been if I didn't catch the bike that one time. Be deliberate, balanced, strong, and quick and there should be no reason to drop at low speed unless you're distracted or slip on some variable on the road. I also always deliberately put my ass on the outside on the seat when making U-turns just like we were taught in the MSF class, you know how many guys I see out there that are just too fat or lazy to do a proper U-turn! it's crazyness... I think a lot of the problems with new riders is pure lack of coordination and balance, and also the failure to continuously practice and develop good habbits so they become deliberate steps in certain manuvers, then of course some are just not strong enough, a lot want to look cool and pull up to stop lights one-handed, just genral stupid stuff. yeah I was getting cocky and doing one hand off the grip in heavy traffic, nearly dropped and was quick enough to snap my other hand onto the bars to keep it up, just some people get too comfortable and forget the steps on the low speed stuff, if you're not quick enough this is when you start droppin the bike. During the MSF I saw some girl drop the bike 3 times before she walked off the lot, she wasn't even strong enough to lift the bike back up, I mean there really should be a fitness requirement to riding or some type of balance/coordination exam. I think the most important aspect I didn't mention is that one knows their own limits and operates within them or exits the comfort zone in small amounts, I think if you're dropping the bike 4 times in the first 500 miles, a brand new bike mind you, that you should either hit the gym, get more sleep, or buy a cheaper bike- chances are the types of "drops" you are having will continue to happen unless you change some part of your low speed equation and the low speed factors really all require on strength, balance, and concentration. I have roughly 5k experience, mostly city riding but a good balance of highway in there too, I have never dropped low speed only times my bike has gone down are when it got hit or knocked over by the wind while it was parked and when I got rear ended. I've talked to guys that drop their bikes 4 times a year and I just base my findings upon what I see in them, just seems like a lack of focus and coordination, and yeah when you're on 2 wheels those are pretty important.
BTW- I am still a "new rider" I don't want anyone to think I am calling myself a vet or anything. I just think I have a very good aptitude for learning physical activities and riding very much is a physical activity especially on these small bikes at low speeds. I am constantly learning and improving, I think the only thing I hate so far about being on a motorcycle are the idiot drivers not paying attention. I also keep careful tabs on my budget and it really would put a sting on my wallet to drop the bike, partly that alone keeps the shiny side up! [drink]
EDIT: forgot to mention, one time I was a little pissed about something and when I was pulling onto a main street cold weather and cold tires I got a really crazy fishtail going, totally accidental, probably looked cool but I was scared shit. I managed to somehow keep the bike up although I swear it felt like I had almost got thrown into a high-side, lesson learned was never bring emotions onto the bike especially in cold weather with cold tires.
With the Stupid laws that thankfully changed up here just recently (Queensland Australia), you could hold a car license for a couple of years, go do a simple half day course/test and you had an open bike license (No restriction)
Sadly it took 3 big accidents and the riders deaths before they decided these laws might not work
19-20 year old, first bike brand new R1, Lasted a couple of weeks, trying to do a stunt (Wheelie) on the highway, lost control of bike and was killed. The riding instructor doing the testing tried to convince him he was not indestructible and to slow down, but under the laws, if the guy passed the tests, he could not hold back his license. Irony is, the instructor wrote on his paperwork that if he didn't slow down and lose the attitude, he'd be dead within 6 months!
30+ year old, coming back to bikes after a period away, CBR1000RR, again, just got his license, told his riding buddies he owned a 600 6 or 7 years earlier, how much power could it have over the 600? First ride on a sunday morning with friends, drops away from the group, next thing he flies past them on a corner and plows into an embankment, they noted the brake light never came on, He target fixated and ploughed in. Died there in front of them.
21 year old on an R6 doing a high speed run up on the tablelands, lost control, hit a tree and was killed instantly, he had just picked up the bike 2 hours earlier.
Would lower powered bikes saved these guys lives? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know....
But handing the keys to a bike like the R1/Fireblade/Gixxer (or any bike of that amount of power including the 600's) to a beginner to me is just stupid and asking for trouble.
Limit the amount of power these guys have by restricting the cc's to begin with, they have just started that again here (you have to ride a 250 for a minimum of 12 months) there were very few 250's being imported when the law came in, but now all the big Japanese companies are scrambling to bring in 250's to offer people a choice and a decent range.
But it proved the point, give a 20 year old an open bike license just because they have driven a car for 2 years, Its like giving a 2 year old a loaded gun to play with, it might be ok, but most likely it's going to end in pain and suffering...Or worse!
That's just my $0.02
Although with currency conversion that works out to roughly $0.016 ;D
i dropped my bike old M900 1 time, had one low speed slide and one highspeed high side.
the first, was pretty early in ownership and no one told me about the false neutral situation. i hit the starter, let go of the clutch (not on the bike to warm it up) and the spring kickstand came up. BAM broken clutch level, bent shifter. [bang] lesson learned. if i'm starting the bike off of it, i always grab the front brake til i am CERTAIN it's in neutral. oh and fix that damn kickstand.
second was a cold weather/ice/high idle situation- i was late for work and had the idler turned up, the ground was especially slick from mist/icing and when i went to pull up the road from the parking lot, the bike pancaked on my right ankle. :'( lesson learned, always wait til it's done warming up before taking off and be mindful of the cold, cause the ground is always colder.
third was a tank slapper- front end got light coming out of a long sweeper that had a bad pavement transition due to new construction. got tossed like a rag doll over the bars about 65-70 mph. broken collar bone and other minor stuff. [bang] lesson learned, always wear gear which i always had, but this time saved my life. landed on my helmet and leathered elbow. and had i gotten another early monster i would have bought the steering damper.
i think all people have accidents, the severity of which is mitigated by our gear, tactics and responses.
I have better gear now than i did then. i have a bike that handles better and is better balanced. and i ride even more mindful of the road and its condition. [moto]
oh and i would have original bought the bike i thought was a better fit for me, 750 ss, instead of being pressured to buy the 900 monster.
Quote from: CairnsDuc on October 11, 2008, 01:30:26 PM
With the Stupid laws that thankfully changed up here just recently (Queensland Australia), you could hold a car license for a couple of years, go do a simple half day course/test and you had an open bike license (No restriction)
Sadly it took 3 big accidents and the riders deaths before they decided these laws might not work
19-20 year old, first bike brand new R1, Lasted a couple of weeks, trying to do a stunt (Wheelie) on the highway, lost control of bike and was killed. The riding instructor doing the testing tried to convince him he was not indestructible and to slow down, but under the laws, if the guy passed the tests, he could not hold back his license. Irony is, the instructor wrote on his paperwork that if he didn't slow down and lose the attitude, he'd be dead within 6 months!
30+ year old, coming back to bikes after a period away, CBR1000RR, again, just got his license, told his riding buddies he owned a 600 6 or 7 years earlier, how much power could it have over the 600? First ride on a sunday morning with friends, drops away from the group, next thing he flies past them on a corner and plows into an embankment, they noted the brake light never came on, He target fixated and ploughed in. Died there in front of them.
21 year old on an R6 doing a high speed run up on the tablelands, lost control, hit a tree and was killed instantly, he had just picked up the bike 2 hours earlier.
Would lower powered bikes saved these guys lives? Maybe, maybe not, we'll never know....
But handing the keys to a bike like the R1/Fireblade/Gixxer (or any bike of that amount of power including the 600's) to a beginner to me is just stupid and asking for trouble.
Limit the amount of power these guys have by restricting the cc's to begin with, they have just started that again here (you have to ride a 250 for a minimum of 12 months) there were very few 250's being imported when the law came in, but now all the big Japanese companies are scrambling to bring in 250's to offer people a choice and a decent range.
But it proved the point, give a 20 year old an open bike license just because they have driven a car for 2 years, Its like giving a 2 year old a loaded gun to play with, it might be ok, but most likely it's going to end in pain and suffering...Or worse!
That's just my $0.02
Although with currency conversion that works out to roughly $0.016 ;D
Sad to hear about these BUT in every example the guys were riding like idiots. I mean, to some degree is this not Darwinism? I see guys riding without lids all the time, they know the danger but they choose to be stupid. These guys are all grownups and they should have known better.
Part of me wanted a bike when I was 20, hell I had more money back then but I knew at the time I would end up being an idiot, almost like I was smart enough to talk myself out of it. I finally bought the bike at 27 because I wanted something nice and needed to have an escape from work. I also will say, before my bike arrived I probably spent 4 hours per day for a week watching crash videos, I also read "Proficient Motorcycling"- I really educated myself on the dangers then I took the MSF. I remember my roomate asked me why I was watching videos of people wiping out all the time, I replied "I am learning what not to do when I get my bike."
For all of us here on Earth it's our own responsibility to understand we are fragile, I feel bad these guys died riding but I also think they were all hazards and really not smart people.
When I first started riding I went on a few "group rides" and bike runs with the harley guys I know. After seeing how riding in a group can get dangerous I stopped doing it, I only ride alone now, last time I did a group ride there were these punks doing wheelies right over people's shoulders, I remember the fact they were being reckless made me too angry to enjoy the day. Too often people end up trying to keep up with the pack or they think it's all as easy as it looks, that's when people get themselves into trouble.
In those examples though I guess a low powered bike might have prevented the accidents, not really sure, but I can't see guys like this staying on a 250cc for a long time anyways, eventually these people would find a way to hurt themselves on something judging by the stories, it does suck though that they didn't have me around to show them crash videos all day, then I bet they would have been a little smarter... I watched so many crash videos and studied them it was almost an obsession... I know I don't have to say it but I just want to- ride safe out there [moto] [bacon]
Eesnas, Your riding alone away from the group is the exact reason I ride alone, I set my own pace, I avoid the dickheads who want to race and do stupid stuff, I change my mind on my direction and where I want to go, If I find a road I want to explore, Off I go. But I digress
It's always the problem of much do you make the laws up to protect people from themselves, you will always get the Idiots who think they are indestructible and can do no wrong.
But the Sad part is when these people go out and do something wrong and smear themselves across the country side, we as a group cop the blame from the public and the the Guv-ment says we must protect these people who can't think for themselves, and new laws are introduced, some good, most bad.
The press got hold of it all over the state, more riders killed down south in the same state and we are labeled as stupid bike riders with a death wish, laws must be changed, Blah blah blah!
Then the minority groups join in, they propose speed limiters, front number plates, power restrictions, satellite tracking, people scoff at the suggestions, It will never happen they say.........
But then a secret report is leaked that 2 state Dept's are looking at front number plates and tracking systems for motorbikes (the Victorian and Queensland state Government Transport depts have both admitted to investigating these and many more options, The front number plate issue nearly made it into law!!!)
Do you suggest a high powered bike to a beginner? No, but you can't stop some people, some people have a death wish, they just don't know it!
The fundamental question will always remain, do you want the Guv-ment to place restrictions on new riders, start them off slow and with limited power with a good chance to learn or hope that people are smart enough to do the right thing and know when they approach a high powered bike to treat it with respect.
I know which one I prefer to happen, but sadly I know what is going to happen
Quote from: eesnas on October 11, 2008, 01:16:29 PM
See I think people are actually at the greatest risk of being hit from behind... Some guy posted something about the weight to HP ratio of a family sedan compaired to a bike, the thing is you should have a big multiple over the average car, you must ride aggressive to survive in traffic as the guy quoted above probably knows, being in NY etc... If your bike cannot move SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the flow of traffic you run the risk of being run over from behind by some girl in an SUV brushing her hair while talking on the phone and finding her favorite playlist on the I-pod, BOOM from behind you end up dead and she spills a latte [coffee]. the thing is the drivers behind you are the ones likely to do the most damage and without the available HP you can't avoid them. All bikes have brakes to stop you from danger ahead, of course the skill of the rider is needed to operate the brakes correctly to avoid hazards front-facing, for danger approaching from the rear I think it's important to almost always move faster than the general flow of traffic, otherwise you're at risk of being rear ended with every car that passes. I have seen slow riders almost get whaled so many times it's CRAZY and I got banged up sitting at a red light, it's really the biggest danger out there.
Personally I think if you find yourself in a situation where the only way out is to accelerate as fast as you can, you may have other issues. How did you get into that situation?
I've never once found myself in a place where the best thing I could do was twist the throttle as hard as I could. Some idiot coming up behind me *way* too fast? Change lanes. Someone not paying attention? Calmly pull away from them. Etc. It's all about reading the situations, and avoiding them before they happen. This comes with experience.
I know you have some experience with this, but for the record, when I'm sitting at a light-one eye is one the light and the other is watching the driver behind me
until I pull away. No abundance or lack of power would've ever done anything to help you when you got rear-ended.
I don't think that r6 is a lot faster than monster 696 for example but people buying r6 usually buy it for racing. So the first bike not being 600 is not what I think. It is all in your head - you don't have to go full throttle if you can't control it and then you can increase the rpms as you learn.. monster 696 was the first bike for me and now I have about 2000km on it and I think that a 125 ccm would be more dangerous for me than the monster. didn't buy the r6 because it is made with all of the fairings for higher speeds and I don't want high speeds for now.
This thread has been very interesting, and a lot of my opinions have already been stated. There does see to be confusion about the '600' nature of the smaller monsters (and SSs, back in the day). They are NOT in the same class as a 600 race replica from the big four.
The first motorcycle I ever "rode" was a late nineties CBR 600RR. It belonged to a friend of my cousin, who stuck the helmet on my head and told me to let 'er rip. I was still in middle school, no license, really stupid. But I thought I'd give it a shot.
That bike, while it didn't so much scare me, made me feel both idiotic and feeble. I couldn't control it, had no idea how the power curve worked, and couldn't modulate the front brake much more than "on" and "off". Taking that ride, however stupid, at least taught me very quickly that someone DOES NOT learn to ride on a bike like that, and in fact learns more bad habits than anything else.
When I did decide to get my first motorcycle, I knew that I wouldn't be flinging myself around corners and riding even close to the limit with any skill for quite some time. At the same time, I wanted something that I could still learn start learning "that stuff" on later. So it needed to be sporty, cool, practical, and unique without being suicidal. 620 monster. Bingo.
I now ride an S4R, and I know that I will never stop learning. I want to buy a good used 99x or 74x superbike soon (after Indy, I gots da feva) because I want to learn to ride faster on the track, not the street. And that's the same place a 600 racer belongs, too. I would even argue, having ridden a 2005 R6 in both conditions, that 600s are super fun and the track and ABSOLUTELY SUCK on the street, at least by comparison. With any monster, its more of a bike that, while still fun at a track, allows you to go almost as fast as a 600 on street with more confidence, comfort, margin for error, and dare I say a little more style.
-Nick [drink]
One last opinion: A great supplement for a beginner motorcyclist is mountain biking, preferably with a 29er. More gyroscopic effect, and more of a hold-your-line cornering style than wee lil 26ers.
I could not agree more...
Just came back from a 250km tour in the nice autumn weather.
Some sun, some rain, dry road, wet leaves , cagers, sunday cagers with bicyle/caravans/boats/horses in the back..
So a lot of things that could go wrong on their side and mine.
I was not riding for three weeks and my 695 really needed to show me there is enough fire to thrill me for more years.
What Ducati should do is not to think about a Monster in between the 696 and 1100...no
They should have a YoungMonster with 250cc and kick some ugly Ninjas butt.
That would bring youngsters to the brand and show the the beauty of a half upright machine compared to that green toilet seat.
Just my 0.02
Quote from: semyhr on October 12, 2008, 06:09:01 AM
I don't think that r6 is a lot faster than monster 696 for example but people buying r6 usually buy it for racing. So the first bike not being 600 is not what I think. It is all in your head - you don't have to go full throttle if you can't control it and then you can increase the rpms as you learn.. monster 696 was the first bike for me and now I have about 2000km on it and I think that a 125 ccm would be more dangerous for me than the monster. didn't buy the r6 because it is made with all of the fairings for higher speeds and I don't want high speeds for now.
So you're asserting that your 80 hp (at the engine) 696 is comparable to the 110+ rwhp (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2008-yamaha-r6-first-ride-69270.html) (6th paragraph down) Yamaha R6, the first production bike to break 170 mph (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/mcn/2008/march/1-9/mar0408yamahar6breaks170mph/?&R=EPI-99002), or even a comparable KawaHonZuki.
Riiiiiiiiight.
The first bike I rode was a Kantana 600. It was too much bike. I never had a problem riding it, in fact I found learning on it easy. But I was not responsible with the power. And I still have a copy of the ticket (100 in a 55) to prove it.
Quote from: somebastid on October 11, 2008, 04:59:20 PM
Personally I think if you find yourself in a situation where the only way out is to accelerate as fast as you can, you may have other issues. How did you get into that situation?
I've never once found myself in a place where the best thing I could do was twist the throttle as hard as I could. Some idiot coming up behind me *way* too fast? Change lanes. Someone not paying attention? Calmly pull away from them. Etc. It's all about reading the situations, and avoiding them before they happen. This comes with experience.
I know you have some experience with this, but for the record, when I'm sitting at a light-one eye is one the light and the other is watching the driver behind me until I pull away. No abundance or lack of power would've ever done anything to help you when you got rear-ended.
True no amount of power would have prevented my rear-ending for the simple fact the driver behind me jammed on the gas after we had both been sitting at the red light for a few minutes, this you're right about. I will say though when I am on the highway I have been in plenty of situations where rolling on heavy throttle has helped me escape drivers that look to be dangerous. I am not saying I outrun every car but when I see a driver that looks to be absent-minded I use acceleration to get clear of them and then if I need to position myself elsewhere to let them pass I do just that. I have never felt dropping back is as safe as I can more easily judge hazards ahead than behind, typically it is easiest to just move faster than the traffic and leave them behind. Basically, I think we'd all agree a Vespa on the highway is more dangerous than a 620 monster, which is why they are not allowed on the highway where I have lived (not sure about everywhere else), the reason being not enough power or speed to beat the flow of traffic. I think every car that passes you presents the possible risk of not seeing you, therefore by not being able to increase speed as quick as you decide to presents a greater risk. In the same sense I think that owning or driving slow cars is more dangerous than fast ones, there have been a handful of times when I am driving a car where I am avoiding trouble by accelerating, I ride a 620, it's not a ton of power but anything less and I would feel vulnerable. I just think it's better to have a little extra power if needed to avoid a problem rather than not enough, I know most people are idiots and they don't understand why a faster vehicle can be safer but in my mind you can speed up or slow down to avoid trouble, I like to have the option to do both, if you don't have enough available power then you limit yourself to possible options to escape tricky situations. Keep in mind I think a 620 is plenty of speed for me, I do not feel underpowered as I can probably accelerate faster than 95% of cars on the road, I am just saying that this is how a bike should be and that if a beginer wants the same power to weight ratio as a family sedan then they can go buy a Vespa, which in my mind is more dangerous than a 600cc motorcycle because of the low power. On the Japanese 600cc bikes I agree, it's too much power for a beginer, but if someone can't handle a 620cc Vtwin then they probably shouldn't ride at all.
Have you ridden a smaller bike?
The MSF ones don't count.
i think that new suzuki that is coming out that is a single cyclinder 250 that looks like a retro 70s bike is going to make them a lot of money.
i'm considering getting one of those for daily commuting in a suburb town. think about it probbaly really great gas mileage and it looks like a fun bike for just tooling around on in genearl and probably won't have maintencnace till 15000 miles. and it has that retro look. the real question is how does it ride.
the dirt bike thing people speak of sounds like a great idea. only problme is that those of us that live in more urban areas don't have access to dirtbike trails on a regular basis so that dirbike thing would be really bad since that person migh only get out to ride dirtbikes maybe 1 or 2 times a month tops and not have the storage space for the bike/trailer/etc. so while i agree dirbikes would be great to learn on, its not really feasible for everyone.
Quote from: somebastid on October 12, 2008, 11:22:27 AM
Have you ridden a smaller bike?
The MSF ones don't count.
Only the MSF ones... I am under the impression that a 250 ninja is much quicker than a 250 Nighthawk. I think smaller bikes are fine, maybe I am 'personalizing' my posts too much to just my thinking and size... I guess I should clarify, what I am saying is a 620 Monster is a great bike for a beginner, I weigh 225 and I think anything with less HP than my 620 might actually be more dangerous. I believe a 250 Ninja might have roughly the same HP, so there might be no sense in some of my posting as I have never rode a bike like this. Regardless, to touch back to the OP here, to imply "all 600cc bikes are too much for a newbie" is a blanket statement that I do not agree with, is there not a big difference between the 2 valve and 4 valve motors? I just find the discussion interesting though, but I will freely admit other than the MSF bikes I have only rode my 620.
did they ever sell the 400 monster in the states?
Quote from: Raux on October 12, 2008, 11:37:24 AM
did they ever sell the 400 monster in the states?
from what I know it was in Japan only... that's a great example of a bike that I would need to lose 50 lbs to feel okay about riding, at my current weight I would feel like it would be unsafe/underpowered.
maybe now with the light 696-style frame a 400 wouldn't feel so sluggish.
figure that the bike could lose another 10-15 pounds (696 to 1100 gained 15) to 340lbs and hp ratings near around 50-60 it might be the right bike for starters.
Quote from: Raux on October 12, 2008, 11:42:16 AM
maybe now with the light 696-style frame a 400 wouldn't feel so sluggish.
figure that the bike could lose another 10-15 pounds (696 to 1100 gained 15) to 340lbs and hp ratings near around 50-60 it might be the right bike for starters.
That's a good point...
Quote from: eesnas on October 12, 2008, 11:45:13 AM
That's a good point...
the more and more i think about it, it would be the right move for Ducati. I mean the new fighter will take the hi end and the monster could grab the entry level with a 400.
i think the 400 idea from ducati bringing it to the states would be a disaster.
here is why, ducati still likes being viewed as somewhat of a "premium" brand over the japanese bikes. if they brign that bike here it will have to be a few thousand cheaper than the 696 and that puts it at around 5500-6k out the door.
as an entry level bike its going to be more expensive than other beginner bikes like the ninja 250 and rebel and such, and its going to be underpowered for even a person that likes ducatis. people would say, for that much i'lljust buy a used 620 or 695 for the same price or cheaper.
its still going to have the valve adjustments and such so that would turn people off, great way to intorduce them to the ownership of a ducati. and that would not be great.
valid points. lower entry cost, but with same high maintenance costs, would hurt the ducati image.
Quote from: Obsessed? on October 12, 2008, 08:10:01 AM
So you're asserting that your 80 hp (at the engine) 696 is comparable to the 110+ rwhp (http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/yamaha/2008-yamaha-r6-first-ride-69270.html) (6th paragraph down) Yamaha R6, the first production bike to break 170 mph (http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults/mcn/2008/march/1-9/mar0408yamahar6breaks170mph/?&R=EPI-99002), or even a comparable KawaHonZuki.
Riiiiiiiiight.
The first bike I rode was kawasaki z750 and that's the bike I learned to ride and I don't see why you can't compare it to monster. R6 is a different story but as I mentioned you buy R6 to race, there is no pleasure chilling on that bike.
Of the guys at my work who ride, 2 have GSX-R 600's, 2 have R6's, 3 have CBR 600's, and the rest have an assortment of cruisers. Oh, and there's a dude on a stretched white 'Busa.
None of them do trackdays.
Quote from: eesnas on October 12, 2008, 11:33:58 AM
Only the MSF ones... I am under the impression that a 250 ninja is much quicker than a 250 Nighthawk. I think smaller bikes are fine, maybe I am 'personalizing' my posts too much to just my thinking and size... I guess I should clarify, what I am saying is a 620 Monster is a great bike for a beginner, I weigh 225 and I think anything with less HP than my 620 might actually be more dangerous. I believe a 250 Ninja might have roughly the same HP, so there might be no sense in some of my posting as I have never rode a bike like this. Regardless, to touch back to the OP here, to imply "all 600cc bikes are too much for a newbie" is a blanket statement that I do not agree with, is there not a big difference between the 2 valve and 4 valve motors? I just find the discussion interesting though, but I will freely admit other than the MSF bikes I have only rode my 620.
See if you can find a friend with one sometime. I ain't no lighter than you, and I was impressed. Yes, you have to wring it's neck, but the bike *did* definitely move along fine. It's definitely a fun ride [thumbsup]
Quote from: Obsessed? on October 12, 2008, 01:03:53 PM
Of the guys at my work who ride, 2 have GSX-R 600's, 2 have R6's, 3 have CBR 600's, and the rest have an assortment of cruisers. Oh, and there's a dude on a stretched white 'Busa.
None of them do trackdays.
They don't do track days, but do they drive by the posted speed limits on the highways?
I don't think CC should be the measurement... HP, torque, and weight.... Too many new riders drop the bike at stops cause it weighs too much or they are not used to the weight... or are just too short to completely flat foot it... but that is the minor issue... a 620 monster versus a cbr600.... big difference in the trouble factor. As to off roading... I grew up on off road bikes... and it helps a lot.... Oh.. and I don't think any of us obey the posted speed limits on highways... cager or bike... ;D YES... I agree.. they should have graduated licenses.. it would be safer for all involved. (I think I replied to all comments made in random order.) [thumbsup]
My first bike was an M900. I have nothing wrong with people starting on bigger bikes, it just takes a level head and a bit of restraint.
Quote from: ryandalling on October 13, 2008, 09:05:37 AM
I don't think CC should be the measurement... HP, torque, and weight.... Too many new riders drop the bike at stops cause it weighs too much or they are not used to the weight... or are just too short to completely flat foot it... but that is the minor issue... a 620 monster versus a cbr600.... big difference in the trouble factor. As to off roading... I grew up on off road bikes... and it helps a lot.... Oh.. and I don't think any of us obey the posted speed limits on highways... cager or bike... ;D YES... I agree.. they should have graduated licenses.. it would be safer for all involved. (I think I replied to all comments made in random order.) [thumbsup]
A fair proportion of Australia runs a power to weight setup - the "learner approved motorcycle scheme". There is even a detuned M620 available under it. I think it's as good a compromise as one can make. Deals with the complete numpties, and the restrictions don't last that long if you've had a car licence for at least a couple of years. For reference, the only bikes < 250cc which aren't allowed are the Suzuki RGV250, Aprilia RS250 and the like i.e. proper race two-strokes.
There are some anomalies in the inplementation from state to state, though. Where I live (the Aus. Capital Territory), it's purely power to weight and you can actually ride a Harley under your restrictions. The implementation of weight is slightly different here, too, they allow less for bikes above 250 cc so a Honda RVF400 isn't allowed in the ACT but is in the state which entirely contains the ACT...
Still gives people plenty of options for bikes which are pretty damned quick, and means taller people have options too.
I think it's funny when people say they started on a 600, and then they say it's like a 19XX 600... Yeah... It's pretty evident that a 19XX and a 2008 600 are sooooo comparable... They have the same weight & power and braking and acceleration [roll]
A modern 600 is bordering on being as powerful and as light weight with aggresive ergos and rake and trail numbers as race bikes were at one time...
So yeah, have fun starting on one.....
And the you can die on a 250 argument is moot also... The handling, although nice (for an experienced rider), on say a 2008 Ninja 250 is no where near as razor sharp as a modern 600...
It's a lot easier to get in over your head on a SuperSport than a beginner bike, power is only 1 small part of it, it's the package as a whole than makes it not a wise choice to begin your riding life with...
[puke]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pnvkqIQcd8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pnvkqIQcd8&feature=related)
Quote from: Jobu on October 15, 2008, 12:29:45 AM
[puke]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pnvkqIQcd8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pnvkqIQcd8&feature=related)
Dear god. What's worse is the comments! People are
listening to this idiot!
Quote from: somebastid on October 15, 2008, 10:52:14 AM
Dear god. What's worse is the comments! People are listening to this idiot!
What an idiot.
Weight is the #1 issue?
Buy the most powerful bike possible?
Idiot.
so this friend of mine... never sat on a bike yet, decided he wants a bike.
the 'tender at the bar he manages actually told him "you'll fit well on a 'busa. I don't see anything wrong w/that."
I was speechless for a second. or two.
the whole time previously that I was talking to him, I had him practically sold on an 08 ninja 250 (since he does like new, shiny toys).
now he's looking at a 'busa. I told him that he ought to at least let me ride it around the block before he bins it and kills himself. he still doesn't seem to grasp my concern.
[roll]
People often comment on weight, seat height & power. When comparing the Ninja 250 & Ducati 696 size and weight are very close, power is not.
Weight:
2009 Ninja 250 - 374 lbs.
2009 Ducati 696 - 355 lbs.
Seat Height:
2009 Ninja 250 - 30.5"
2009 Ducati 696 - 30.3
Power-torque & HP:
2009 Ninja 250 - 16.2 ft-lbs & 26 HP
2009 Ducati 696 - 50.6 ft-lbs & 80 HP
Quote from: Jeff U on October 17, 2008, 07:00:19 PM
People often comment on weight, seat height & power. When comparing the Ninja 250 & Ducati 696 size and weight are very close, power is not.
Weight:
2009 Ninja 250 - 374 lbs.
2009 Ducati 696 - 355 lbs.
Seat Height:
2009 Ninja 250 - 30.5"
2009 Ducati 696 - 30.3
Power-torque & HP:
2009 Ninja 250 - 16.2 ft-lbs & 26 HP
2009 Ducati 696 - 50.6 ft-lbs & 80 HP
I could be wrong, but I think that may be the wet weight for the Ninja compared to the dry weight for the 696. I noticed the other manufacturers were starting to use wet weight this year. Either way, the 696 has WAY more oomph than the ninja
Quote from: teddy037.2 on October 15, 2008, 02:27:12 PM
so this friend of mine... never sat on a bike yet, decided he wants a bike.
the 'tender at the bar he manages actually told him "you'll fit well on a 'busa. I don't see anything wrong w/that."
I was speechless for a second. or two.
the whole time previously that I was talking to him, I had him practically sold on an 08 ninja 250 (since he does like new, shiny toys).
now he's looking at a 'busa. I told him that he ought to at least let me ride it around the block before he bins it and kills himself. he still doesn't seem to grasp my concern.
[roll]
When I was first looking for a bike 8 years ago, I went to a dealer that had a 'busa on the floor. I asked about it, just curious at the time and the dealer asked how long it'd been since I'd been on a bike. I said about 10 years. He replied, "honestly, I wouldn't even sell you that bike because you'd be a greasy spot before you got to the freeway."
I gained some respect for that dealer because of that.
superjohn - You are correct on weights. My previous post mixed dry & wet.
Dry Weight:
Ninja 250 - 333 lbs (source Kawasaki web site)
Ducati 696 - 355 lbs (source Ducati web site)
I think my 696 is a great first bike... admittedly, it's kind of like dating a supermodel while you're in highschool. You feel like the man, but you really have no idea what to do with her.
ppphhh my first bike was 1200cc busa with a turbo charger on it. That thing ripped. I was responsible at the ripe age of 18 and never had any problems on it as new ride. I only weighed 120lbs when I got that bike, it went about 300MPH. Good starter bike.
haha...that was a good one :)
I think the most important part is age and experience on the street.
I got speeding tickets in my car when I was 18 and just had the license for three months.
I also crashed my first car...not totaled but looked cool.
The 695 is my first bike, I am 36 and I put 8000 km on it this summer.
Not drops, no crashes, no tickets...and yes...I have been to track two times with it as well.
Its not the 600 or 1000 or 2000cc...its the upper half of the the motorcycle that counts. [wine]