Riding. [moto]
DISCLAIMER:
Standard SOP applies -
- All skill levels are welcome but be prepared for some technical roads
- Full gear is not required but is very highly recommended
- Please make sure you are able to prove that you're legally able to operate your bike; "M" endorsement on you license, current reg & ins papers
- Speed limits and traffic laws will be obeyed EVERYWHERE unless I think it's appropriate to disregard any laws. In these cases you're encouraged to use your own judgement.
Not to scare people away or anything but... riders going down on my rides are becoming a regular occurrence and the crash percentage is getting higher and higher. I feel responsible in part but in reality, there's only so much I can do. I always try make sure that each and every person has fair warning about my road choice and pace. In the end, it's up to each rider to decide their pace and it's up to each rider to make sure that they DO NOT ride above their skill level in order to try to keep up. It's not a race and we don't get trophies at the end of the day. As most of you folks already know, I'll wait at each turn off or intersection for the group to reform before moving on. These rides aren't testosterone fests, they're just about having fun while trying to achieve smoothness with your bike.
[EDIT] - I mentioned above that all skills levels are welcome... sorry, but this time around I'm gonna have to scratch that, the reason being... last weekend 3 of the Suspects and I were able to cover A LOT of ground in a short amount of time because we were able to move at a fast (and highly illegal) pace. For this ride, the roads will be very technical (or as technical as we have available to us within a 3hr radius), and the pace will be FIRE. I'm concerned about existing daylight and time will be a factor so we won't have time to wait for slower riders.
If however you're more than comfortable riding at an intense pace (3x to 5x the rated speed for turns) for extended periods of time (basically all day) and have the skills and ability to do so without riding over your head or out of your comfort zone WHILE leaving your ego out of the equation, you're more than welcome to come along. Expect to be out for a long time and arrive home late, by late I mean after midnight. The slab ride home can also get intense as they tend to become mini GCR's, and as our long lost friend eracer777 put it- "Wow, that was like doing an Irish road race!" [/EDIT]
All that being said, besides the usual people coming out, I doubt anyone else will venture to come along since you guys rarely ever do (I wish I knew why), so in a way this post is moot, but there's always hope...
We'll be meeting up in Bklyn at Southside Coffee. Time to be determined. The route... far west into PA.
IN -
- me
- Cru
No takers yet?! I see how you people are...
;)
Quote from: goldenchild on October 16, 2008, 10:49:11 AM
No takers yet?! I see how you people are...
;)
I just don't have enough tred to make it back alive at a pace called FIRE[laugh].
Quote from: GLantern on October 16, 2008, 11:11:41 AM
I just don't have enough tred to make it back alive at a pace called FIRE[laugh].
Oh please, cry me a river... how long have you been talking about a new rear tire now? A month? 2? [bang]
Quote from: goldenchild on October 16, 2008, 11:16:52 AM
Oh please, cry me a river... how long have you been talking about a new rear tire now? A month? 2? [bang]
Times r tough and well lets just say my dog ate my rear tire money for me, one is coming in with the next check though ;D. IAlso my riding has really been off since i got the bike back i have been overthinking my technique which is never a good thing, and my confidence with that tire is jackshit right now
Quote from: goldenchild on October 16, 2008, 10:49:11 AM
No takers yet?! I see how you people are...
;)
The one time I successfully met up to ride with you, you turned back due to a few sprinkles. [roll]
How 'bout the following Sunday though? I'm off that week and can do the "until the early AM" stuff without worries of having to get up at my normal 3:30 am.
The pace wouldn't be an issue at all, the little 620 has kept up with the best I can find so far, just don't let me pass you. That'd be just embarrassing. [cheeky]
Quote from: lethe on October 16, 2008, 11:29:50 AM
The pace wouldn't be an issue at all, the little 620 has kept up with the best I can find so far, just don't let me pass you. That'd be just embarrassing. [cheeky]
oh snap... now that's funny
Quote from: lethe on October 16, 2008, 11:29:50 AM
The one time I successfully met up to ride with you, you turned back due to a few sprinkles. [roll]
You keep mentioning that 15 minutes we rolled together... dude, it was 15 minutes [laugh]. Also, how do you know that skdmrks & I weren't looking for an excuse to bail and do our own ride? [cheeky]
QuoteHow 'bout the following Sunday though?
Not riding next Sunday, I've got a date with a go cart...
QuoteThe pace wouldn't be an issue at all...
That's what most people start out thinking, then they crash... OH SNAP I did not just say that! But seriously, there's no ego on these rides, it's just about having fun and trying to be smooth. If you can keep up, goodonyou, if not, then you should know better than to try to. Besides, how far can one push themselves when rolling in a pair of jeans? Not too far I hope.
By "FIRE" do you mean I won't have to keep slowing down for you guys in corners when I'm sweeping?
[laugh]
I kid of course, my riding sucks a bit right now.
Just to be clear, by "pushing" you mean the speed rather than actually pushing the bike because it's a Ducati.
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
I kid, I kid!
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 16, 2008, 12:35:12 PM
By "FIRE" do you mean...
By FIRE I mean trying to get home in time for the bowel movement that's been rearing it's ugly head (did you see that pun?!) [laugh]
i have no rear brakes, having them looked at Saturday. :(
Ducati - making mechanics out... oh make the beast with two backs that, I just want to ride my damn bike! ;) [laugh]
Sorry you're having issues again Kevin.
GC - that's why I'm against stopping for lunch. ;)
Quote from: goldenchild on October 16, 2008, 12:29:00 PM
You keep mentioning that 15 minutes we rolled together... dude, it was 15 minutes [laugh]. Also, how do you know that skdmrks & I weren't looking for an excuse to bail and do our own ride? [cheeky]Not riding next Sunday, I've got a date with a go cart...That's what most people start out thinking, then they crash... OH SNAP I did not just say that! But seriously, there's no ego on these rides, it's just about having fun and trying to be smooth. If you can keep up, goodonyou, if not, then you should know better than to try to. Besides, how far can one push themselves when rolling in a pair of jeans? Not too far I hope.
15 minutes! Bah, it was more like a half hour! [laugh]
No ego here, just a need for false bravado to make up for a lack of displacement. [cheeky] It's really all in fun.
PM me if you don't mind me coming this Sunday. I can't stay out until all hours because of work the next day but as long as I can be home by 9pm or so I'm good. Also, no jeans or sneakers here. I'm still tucking my knee in due to no knee pucks yet but I'm doing good safety-wise and I'm actually dead serious when I say that I can keep whatever pace you want to. I can step it up as much as I need to.
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 16, 2008, 12:49:52 PM
oh make the beast with two backs that,
Where is that WTF smilie when i need it
Quote from: lethe on October 16, 2008, 12:53:29 PM
15 minutes! Bah
It's all gravy. If you want to come along for the ride you're either going to have to meet us in Bklyn, or in Allentown, time tbd.
Quote from: opinion914 on October 16, 2008, 01:06:48 PM
Where is that WTF smilie when i need it
It's an old Australian saying much like, "You can draw milk from a dingo but you can't make him sing."
Your "potty mouth" filter is on, it makes common curse words into weird shit.
Quote from: opinion914 on October 16, 2008, 01:06:48 PMWhere is that WTF smilie when i need it
That's make the beast with two backsing retarded make the beast with two backsing bullshit mothermake the beast with two backsing filtering pregnant dog cockmaster assmonkey.
;D
Quote from: goldenchild on October 16, 2008, 11:16:52 AM
Oh please, cry me a river... how long have you been talking about a new rear tire now? A month? 2? [bang]
I ordered a new tire gotta love using credit cards for advances on funds [thumbsup] Will be mounted next week ill stop
:'(
:'(
:'(
:'(
:'(
:'(
:'(
:'(
:'(
:'(
thats my river of tears [laugh] can u tell im bored at work?
Can someone with the loser filter please post up what that looks like?
cockbag - that too ;D
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 16, 2008, 01:26:54 PM
Can someone with the loser filter please post up what that looks like?
cockbag - that too ;D
I know what a cockbag is, but what's a cockmaster? Is that like the chicken in charge? [laugh]
Quote from: goldenchild on October 16, 2008, 01:34:22 PM
I know what a cockbag is, but what's a cockmaster? Is that like the chicken in charge? [laugh]
It's a workout machine, it was taken off the market when too many customers got their balls caught in the springs.
This is bar-none, the best thread on the new DMF that I've seen. Keep up the good work. [clap]
I really wish i could post pics, because i just found a cockbag and cockmaster combined into 1.....
Quote from: opinion914 on October 16, 2008, 01:42:23 PM
I really wish i could post pics, because i just found a cockbag and cockmaster combined into 1.....
Why am I picturing pornographic bagpipes?
It's a bag you keep male chickens in... DUH
Quote from: opinion914 on October 16, 2008, 01:42:23 PM
I really wish i could post pics, because i just found a cockbag and cockmaster combined into 1.....
(http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoxOF9GLmpwZ3xsb2FkPUwwLGh0dHA6Ly9pbWFnZXMuY2FmZXByZXNzLmNvbS9pbWFnZS8xMjQ5OTMzNF80MDB4NDAwLmpwZ3x8c2NhbGU9TDAsMTg0LDE4NCxXaGl0ZXxjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLEwwLEFkZCwxNTEsMTI1fGNwPXJlc3VsdCxibGFua3xzY2FsZT1yZXN1bHQsMCw0ODAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcHJlc3Npb249OTV8)
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 16, 2008, 01:47:13 PM
It's a bag you keep male chickens in... DUH
You mean this (http://media.philly.com/images/condom.jpg) isn't a cockbag?
I can carry many chickens in my cockbag.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a295/giacco/condom-01.jpg)
You guys are disgusting. :o
[laugh]
Have good ride this weekend ... wish I could go!
Slight change of plans...
Due to living and working in this germ infested cesspool of a petri dish we call NYC, I'm STILL feeling under the weather. Canceling the ride? Hell no, just not riding for as long or as fast as I originally intended sooooo...
this ride is now open to all skill levels. Come one, come all. Sorry for the last minute change up.
Who am I kidding?! You folks rarely want to ride with us so I'm not expecting anyone else to join in, just thought I'd ask though... :P
what time you think you guys will be back in the general NYC vicinity? as I posted in the other thread, Terry is still out due to the same cold. I've fought it off or possibly had this strain already lol. I had committed to something else...... but if I can make it back home before dark and the temps drop, I could be swayed :-*
edit: see you guys next weekend [thumbsup]
(feeling bad since I already committed to the ramapo ride, I'll be thinking of you guys, when I can't make it out of 3rd gear [laugh])
M, unfortunately we'll still be getting back after dark... doesn't you bike have HID's ;)?
HID's yes, heated gear? no. ;)
too cold for my liking... I'll prefer to get home at sundown, and watch the Malaysia race @ 6pm. ;D
Quote from: IndustrialGrrrl on October 18, 2008, 06:14:54 PM
HID's yes, heated gear? no. ;)
too cold for my liking... I'll prefer to get home at sundown, and watch the Malaysia race @ 6pm. ;D
K then, I'll see you next week at the cart track!! Oh and Rossi won the race, he just doesn't know it yet ;)
Can't ride tomorrow. :-[ got some cleaning up to do. Have a safe one!
I just got back from a ride actually, it's only 33 degrees what are you complaining about? [laugh]
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 18, 2008, 08:56:49 PM
I just got back from a ride actually, it's only 33 degrees what are you complaining about? [laugh]
That's awesome!
[clap]
I left the house at 10. LOL
What?! I'm already, fed, bathed and dressed like a normal person and typing up a post ride report BEFORE 8pm?!! No, I/we are not getting soft, we'd still be about 180 miles away from home right about now but unfortunately...
I hate to sound like one of these -
(http://www.journerdism.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/broken-record.jpg)
See, it all started for me last night while getting my crap together for today's ride - I like to get everything together the night before so that I can just wake up, take care of doggie and be on my way. Here's a pic of doggie just cause I love him ;D -
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq213/forumpics2323/IMG_0010.jpg)
Anyway, as I was getting my crap together, I was still a tiny bit iffy about riding because I'm still feeling pretty crappy. Not only that, I was worried about the road temperatures and cold tires so I thought I'd post up about it as seen here (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=13439.0). I decided that I was going to ride since the fresh air would probably do me some good, and that I'd make sure to take it real easy since the tires probably wouldn't warm up to temp.
Fast forward to 9am. I make it all the way to the meet up spot (Southside Coffee), a grueling 2 blocks away (organizing rides has to have some perks right?!). We suck/sip down our delicious hot beverages and move out. The BQE, a fight through lower Manhattan, Holland Tunnel, a lovely tour through downtown Newark, and an hour later we get off of the slab. We make a pit stop for gas and to assess our clothing - too many layers, not enough etc. During this stop I felt my tires (currently C2T's) and they felt about room temperature. Not hot, not cold, just neutral rubber. During the spring/summer these tires would normally feel hot and sticky to the touch after an hour and change on the slab, but not this time of year hence my concern.
We leave the gas station and we're shortly on the first of many planned twistys for the day. I made a mental note to make a sincere effort to ride at a casual pace and also make sure I match my revs perfectly while downshifting. Even though I wasn't riding hard or particularly fast, I still managed to break the back end loose because my tires just weren't up to the task as they were never going to warm up. While riding during warmer temps, I'd have to be riding pretty fast to break the back end loose, but with cold pavement and cold temps, your tires just will not stick like you're used to. 5 miles, 10 miles, 15 miles down the road all is well apart from the back of the bike squirming all over the place. If you expect to happen then it's no big deal really. We managed to get some fun corners in. Somewhere around mile 17 into the twistys we come upon a set of corners that I'm pretty familiar with. Left right left right left right so on and so on. The last 2 corners on this particular series goes like this... tight left hand sweeper going slightly uphill with the camber in your favor, going into... a slightly decreasing radius downhill off camber right hander. Visually, the road looks like it's falling away from you. After these series of corners, the road straightens out for a bit before you hit more corners and ride off into the sunset.
Cru and I get to the first junction and we pull over to wait for Tom who was the only other rider that we had today. Cru knows Tom from the local SV board. Anyhow, Tom's ridden with us before and I remember being impressed by his riding skills and also the fact that he's a great guy. He gave me zips ties one time to reattach my license plate during that strange period when all the Suspects plates seemed to be falling off their bikes. As we were heading down the fun road we just finished I was checking my mirror to see whether or not Tom was able to hang with Cru and I. Granted, we WEREN'T going as fast as we normally do down that road, 70-ish mph as opposed to 95+. I didn't see Tom in my mirror but I thought nothing of it since I knew him as a smart and skilled rider. Also, on the previous corners of the day we'd lose him for a bit so not immediately seeing behind me was of no concern.
Tom thankfully was riding smart and well within his limits. He wasn't trying to keep up with us, he was just taking everything at his own pace like everyone should be doing. As Cru and I were waiting at the junction, I started to get a bad feeling about Tom. A few minutes go by and Cru text messaged him to tell him where we were in case he for some reason turned off the road. Another few minutes go by and all of a sudden 2 little old ladies pull up behind us and wave us over. I immediately think "Oh shit, bad news." They kindly tell us that they passed a fallen rider back down the road we just came from.
We jump back on the bikes, make a u turn and ride back. A few miles later we roll up on Tom and his now "naked" SV. Lucky for him, his crash wasn't too bad considering the circumstances (remember that downhill decreasing radius off camber right turn?). He wasn't hurt thanks to him wearing FULL GEAR including a BACK PROTECTOR. His suit tore apart a little at the shoulder but that's about it. If it wasn't for the back protector, he might have ended up in the hospital cause on the side of the road at that corner there's nothing but rocks in all shapes and sizes ranging from babyheads to small boulders.
Based on Tom's recount, he told us that he target fixated on the rocks while he was at the apex of the right hander and the next thing he knew, he was down. Like I said, he wasn't hurt but he'll for damn sure be sore tomorrow. As for the bike... he lost the front fairing, gauge cluster, headlights, mirrors, the exhaust can fell off, the rear subframe got bent, among other things...
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq213/forumpics2323/photo-2.jpg)
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq213/forumpics2323/photo-1.jpg)
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq213/forumpics2323/photo.jpg)
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq213/forumpics2323/photo-4.jpg)
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq213/forumpics2323/photo-3.jpg)
(http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq213/forumpics2323/photo-5-1.jpg)
To give you an idea of what the bike looked like before the accident, here's a stock pic -
(http://www.matfys.lth.se/Niclas.Danielsson/pictures/MCbilder/SV650S_Copper_RHF_1024.jpg)
We sat around for a bit to catch our breath, luckily it was looking like Tom and the bike would be able to ride home although he wouldn't have lights or a gauge cluster. We left the scene in the early afternoon and slowly meandered our way home. There were further incidents on the ride home apart from Sunday traffic. We all made it safe and sound.
I knew I was going to post this little tale here on the DMF when I got home, but at the same time I didn't want to because Cru and I KNOW that this might be the one to scare everyone off of our rides for good and nobody will ever ride with us again. As it stands, hardly any of you come out with us as it is, but after hearing about all the crashing going on in these rides? Ppfff, I'm pretty sure none of you will come with us now (as much as I'd love for all of you to). I'll still be posting up for rides but I won't be expecting too much of a response :'(.
As bad as I feel for Tom and his crash, and as much as I wish it would've never happened, I'm slightly heartened to know for a fact that there's was nothing I could've done to prevent his accident and my conscience is clear on this one unlike the last half dozen accidents. Target fixation, cold tires, not a good combo for sport riding. I used to absolutely FEAR people going down on these rides and for a long time nothing ever happened. Sadly, now instead of fearing people going down, I've come to almost expect it. The only thing I can tell you folks is nothing that you haven't heard before -
- WEAR YOUR GEAR. Full gear from head to toe including proper riding boots and a back protector preferably something rated CE level 2. Jeans and tims DO NOT count and gear.
- DO NOT ride above your skill level and or comfort zone. These rides aren't races, you will not get a trophy or a sponsorship or a free bike at the end of the day. You are not Valentino Rossi, nobody is paying to ride your motorcycle so don't try to ride like it. If your ego is telling you otherwise, you'd better start thinking about taking up chess instead. These rides are for meeting new FRIENDS, seeing old ones and for having fun. Nothing more, nothing less.
- DO NOT try to keep up with the rider in front of you. Follow them, sure, how else are you going to know which way to go? Just don't try to keep the same pace. What's fast for one person may be slow for another and everyone's perception and skill levels are very different. DO NOT assume that you'll be able to follow.
I sincerely hope that you folks will continue to want to have group rides with me and the other US's. As I was telling Mypetmonster earlier... my only goal during these rides is to have fun and to learn how to ride my bike smoothly. As such, everyone of all skill levels is welcome to come and experience what group sportriding is about and experience some of the best roads our area has to offer. Shit, you might even be able to eat some deep fried french toast or some rockin' fries while we're at it. Tom, if you're reading this, I hope all will be well with you and your bike soon. To the rest of youze... stayed tuned for next week's report - GRAND PRIX NEW YORK!!!
Sorry to hear about your buddy Tom. The bike looks pretty bad, as does his helmet, but, most important, it sound like he is OK, plus he was able to make it home safe and sound, thanks to the GC/Cru escort.
Great dog!
Thanks Howie!
Not to make light of the current situation of these rides we've got going on but...
Could this be the official Usual Suspects theme song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMenB9Ywh2Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMenB9Ywh2Q)
:-\
Glad Tom's mostly ok, at least he has winter to fix his bike. ;)
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 19, 2008, 09:13:36 PM
Glad Tom's mostly ok, at least he has winter to fix his bike. ;)
Do people jump out of planes during the winter months?
Damn Eric i'm glad he is alright man. The second i saw you post the cold tire thread this morning i had a bad feeling. Like evil said sounds like he has a serious winter project ahead heh.
GC & Cru: I know you said that you guys had ridden with Tom before, but the first thing that immediately caught my eye when looking at the photos of the damage, was his back tire..... it says a lot to me. No offense but it looks like a newbie's rear tire. Perhaps it was a new tire, (though looks old to me) and it's just a photo and I don't know the dude and I wasn't there.
Something that I do, (and this is me), when leading new riders around roads they don't know is, if there is a tricky section coming up that I know of, I will tap on my rear brake several times, to warn the riders behind me that something different is coming up.. If it's sweepers, or tight twisties that are all pretty much all the same, repeated rhythm then I don't worry about it and take off. BUT again, if it's something that I know would give me a problem when I was a new rider I look out for them, and give them a heads up. Even if it means me sacrificing the curve. BUT THIS IS JUST ME!!! so you can take from that what you want. It's not meant to be a criticism, it's just something I do, again I'll use my gender as an excuse and call it the "mom"/big sister thing lol neither of which I am. (though I will pull the mom/big sister thing with my work crew members often)
As for me, I had the longest 120mile ride today with Ramapo. lol. Took our group (RJ joined us and that was a pleasant surprise) all day doing (what must have been) below the speed limit the whole ride, but it was a nice way to end my season, their route was awesome, even with a GPS and the route plugged in I doubt I could find the roads they planned out, the scenery was beautiful. We met up for breakfast and stopped for lunch. [bacon] yummm food. (it's a foodie group, I went with) Luckily I made it home, the monster wasn't happy going so slow lol... naa the gauges once again are caput, this time the bike shut off on me completely (2x) while I was riding in the morning, thankfully I was only doing about 2 mph for a turnoff the 1st time, and about 10-15 mph the second time. See I wouldn't know exactly how slow/fast I was going as the needle of the speedometer fell off months ago. [laugh] So the bike gets torn down again now...... sad to see my season end, but we did manage to get in 7 trackdays in this year, so I have all those photos to look at this winter to get me through.
My bad incident was after a bathroom break, when we were on the side of a road with very heavy traffic, (were only on this road for the equivalent of 3 blocks, and the only traffic we saw all day), no one would let us merge back in, I saw a opening, and the woman driving a car behind me I guess decided she was going to speed up and not let us in.... and we both tried to occupy the same spot at the same time..... the car won of course, so we sort of collided. My ankle came off the peg as she hit me, and my leg got pinned then between the car and the peg........ I'm ok though. I think I got home in time to ice it up my ankle and take 3 motrin, it's not hurting this morning as I write this. In a strange turn of luck, Terry didn't make it out today, as he wasn't 100% still fighting the tail end of this dreaded cold, if he was there... I think the [leo] [leo] would've taken everyone away...... [laugh]
Wow! Take care of that ankle, Michelle :(
Quote from: howie on October 20, 2008, 05:29:31 AM
Wow! Take care of that ankle, Michelle :(
I'm all good, Howie. Not a problem bearing weight (and there's a lot of it now lol). There's just a deep bruise above my ankle, the surface hasn't even changed color. :P
Oh jeeeezzzzzzz... seems like every week it's something new. Cru, glad your boy is ok. M... sounds like you had a close call! - glad you are ok too.
Quote from: patricks2r on October 20, 2008, 06:34:44 AM
Oh jeeeezzzzzzz... seems like every week it's something new. Cru, glad your boy is ok. M... sounds like you had a close call! - glad you are ok too.
Yeah, Tom will be ok. In reference to his tires, they do look a little unworn towards the edges, but I have ridden with him prior (granted it was a year ago) & he kept up just fine. So, I can see where you're coming from IG, but rest assured he's not a newbie. Also, the corner that he went off on was a pretty easy corner (especially at the pace we were going at the time), so there wasn't really a need to forewarn him. He basically passed a car & although he came a little hot into the corner he just basically froze & went off the road. He realizes it was a dumb mistake and is just glad that he's ok & his bike was at least ridable.
Also, sorry to hear about your incident with the cager. :(
Quote from: goldenchild on October 19, 2008, 09:14:40 PMDo people jump out of planes during the winter months?
Yep, snow on the ground & all. I haven't done that yet but I want to give it a go at least once. ;D
Sorry to hear about your mishap M, glad that you're relatively ok [thumbsup]. Also, thanks again for the sound advice. I don't foresee people knocking down the doors and lining up to join these rides any time soon so perhaps the winter will be a good respite for it all.
I've been trying to evaluate whats been going on in these rides and why folks are crashing so much and quite honestly, I can't think of any one particular reason. I also can't think of what may have changed and what differences there are between the last few seasons and this one. In the past, there has never been an issue apart from my own "almost moments".
The only thing that I can even remotely come up with is the pace up front may have gotten a bit faster than in the past, but then again, I can't say for sure ???
Quote from: goldenchild on October 20, 2008, 01:01:04 PM
I've been trying to evaluate whats been going on in these rides and why folks are crashing so much and quite honestly, I can't think of any one particular reason.
Perhaps, you've ridden most of the roads around NYC enough to know what speed to carry and what type of turn is coming up so there's no pucker moment (10/10 focused on the turn) where as the late-joiners doesn't know the lay-of-the-land and expends mental effort at puckering while leaning (8/10 focused on the turn)?
Quote from: CDawg on October 20, 2008, 01:06:27 PM
Perhaps, you've ridden most of the roads around NYC enough to know what speed to carry and what type of turn is coming up so there's no pucker moment (10/10 focused on the turn) where as the late-joiners doesn't know the lay-of-the-land and expends mental effort at puckering while leaning (8/10 focused on the turn)?
Maybe but... we've been doing about 90% of our riding in areas that aren't very local (you should know ;)), and in areas that are a lot newer to us, unlike Harriman [puke], the 'Skills [bang], and the tristate intersections :-X (NY,NJ,PA).
GC & Cru,
you guys said you rode with Tom last year, and you were impressed with his riding ability. I'm just "guesstimating" here, but I can feel pretty certain to bet that you two have improved your riding abilities light-years ahead of what you guys where doing last spring. If I'm wrong, tell me....
This is similar to what I had to deal with when I first started riding with Terry. You guys have no clue as to how quick you guys can ride, in comparison to most of us. I've seen Terry try to lead a newbie up to Perkins Dr. last summer and I cringed because I saw what was going to happen, and sure enough the newbie dumped it in a turn. Lucky for him it was on the inside of a turn, and didn't go off a cliff. It wasn't that Terry was trying to show off, to him he was going slow.... but to the rest of us he might as well have been Vale. ;) Face it, you guys are just too good ;) I think that if you truly want people to join you just to ride and make friends, then you're going to have to turn it down more than a few notches. But then you're going to fall asleep..... so it's a choice you make.... Make it an open to all skills ride and just putt putt around, or make it a spirited ride, and only invite those that you have ridden with and can hang. I think most that have done group rides for a while come to this decision sooner or later.
edit: there's no reason you can't do both. I will invite people I know to putt putt rides and I will gladly lead them around and have Terry sweep for me (so he can play a little bit and try not to fall asleep).... or we won't invite anyone and we go out together, just the two of us, so he can play and I'm pretty good at catching up, or he's just happy following me around. ;)
PS Terry wants to know when is he going to see you guys on the track? You can even borrow his SV!!
Quote from: IndustrialGrrrl on October 20, 2008, 03:47:58 PM
I think that if you truly want people to join you just to ride and make friends, then you're going to have to turn it down more than a few notches. But then you're going to fall asleep..... so it's a choice you make.... Make it an open to all skills ride and just putt putt around, or make it a spirited ride, and only invite those that you have ridden with and can hang. I think most that have done group rides for a while come to this decision sooner or later.
PS Terry wants to know when is he going to see you guys on the track? You can even borrow his SV!!
IG,
While I can't speak for GC, I think you've hit the nail on the head with that comment.
I'd like to get on the track, but at present can't afford the cost of a potential crash & tires. Possibly in the spring I'll be able to get out to a trackday though. I'd love to see how much fun the RC is to ride
legally at ~9.5K for more than a few moments. [laugh]
Quote from: goldenchild on October 20, 2008, 01:01:04 PM
Sorry to hear about your mishap M, glad that you're relatively ok [thumbsup]. Also, thanks again for the sound advice. I don't foresee people knocking down the doors and lining up to join these rides any time soon so perhaps the winter will be a good respite for it all.
I've been trying to evaluate whats been going on in these rides and why folks are crashing so much and quite honestly, I can't think of any one particular reason. I also can't think of what may have changed and what differences there are between the last few seasons and this one. In the past, there has never been an issue apart from my own "almost moments".
The only thing that I can even remotely come up with is the pace up front may have gotten a bit faster than in the past, but then again, I can't say for sure ???
IG, I thought that your bike just fell over and didn't realize what happened until I saw the woman getting out of the car. Glad everything was okay and the rest of the ride was uneventful. Although the ride was slower, it was cool checking out some roads that probably don't even exist on map. That crazy small downhill corkscrew stretch was awesome.
GC, you guys ride at a fairly quick pace and just feel newer people that show up are not prepared or don't expect it. In the ride description, you state that they're not a race and to ride within ones ability which roughly translated means: use common sense. While in a calm state of mind, following this advice should be easy but under a stresssful situation this is probably the last thing someone is thinking about. Nobody wants to be the rider that is last to arrive at the intersection, the rider holding everyone up, or the rider not able to keep up with the everyone else. While most people could care less with how someone performs on a friendly ride in the country, it's these situations that will cause someone to start taking chances and push beyond their abilities. The typical scenarios are always the same: crossing the double yellow, corner entry speed to high, inability to properly threshold brake, not looking far enough ahead, etc. With enough of these happening together, it's easy to figure out what could happen.
Since the situations are almost identical (as far as the mind is concerned), I thought I'd share some of my experiences. I'm fairly new to sport bike riding but have attended many open track events on four wheels. At EVERY event, there is always one person (or more) who puts the car into the wall. The driver behind trying to keep up becomes so focused on the car ahead that instead of driving the track and hitting all his marks, becomes a danger to himself and everyone else participating. It's easy to tell who's overdriving the vehicle as they'll be the guy with lots of oversteer on corner exit or locking up the wheels in the braking zone. What some of these drivers fail to realize is that it's not a race and nobody wins anything but it hurts even more when you've just wadded up your new M3. It's always the same excuse too: the car just started spinning, the tires just let go and (my favorite) I was trying to find the limit. While I'm a big fan of finding ones limits, I believe it has to be done with a clear mind, unstressed, and done small increments. In alot of these incidents, most happen during the last run group of the day when most people are tired and hungry.
Personally, I'm guilty of pushing harder than my skills allow at times and had many "check my shorts" moments but am better at slowing things down a bit when realizing my mind is traveling faster than my abilities. You shouldn't feel responsible for people crashing as it's they're own choice on whether or not to push harder. Your "just cruising around the turns" 70% could be someone elses "Oh my god get me off this thing" 130%. I hope nobody here will take this the wrong way as I mean no disrepect to riders who have gone down here or claim to be a know it all because I don't. I just wanted people to be aware of the "Red Mist" and how ones judgement can become clouded when dealing with personal stress or pressure when riding.
Glad to see Tom is ok. You to Michelle.
You guys have no clue as to how quick you guys can ride, in comparison to most of us. I've seen Terry try to lead a newbie up to Perkins Dr. last summer and I cringed because I saw what was going to happen, and sure enough the newbie dumped it in a turn.
I think I was behind that guy on that ride. Terry had to ride his bike home w/no clutch in the rain over GWB in traffic.
Terry is a very experienced rider. GC and cru's skills have gotten sooo much better his past season since the first time I rode w/them. They were already pretty good to begin with. They also put in the miles to get there.
I hope to ride w/you guys again next season.
mookie,
yeah, that was the incident I was referring to at Perkins. Sergio (a neighbor of ours) dumped his pretty TL1000 and broke off a piece of the clutch lever, no biggie, there was still enough to do something with if we have a pair of pliers.. but more importantly the reservoir broke... so Terry somehow hopped on his bike and rode it home from Perkins without a clutch.
GC & Cru,
I think the best things you did to improve your riding abilities was that you never stopped riding during the winter. I think this is what puts you guys way ahead of the normal learning curve in improving riding skills. This plays on top of the years of aggressive bicycle riding experience and talent! (something you guys also have in common with Terry)
I don't know if you guys remember my friend Alicia that came to the NYMMC post-diner ride. She was riding her new 2008 SV650. She only started riding later last summer, she learned on a piece of shit late 90's Honda Shadow, she rode that piece of shit all winter though! And then after riding during this past spring realized she wanted something sportier and with more power. She rode a few monsters, and my SV650 (which I keep street legal). She was leaning towards the SV before she rode it, and after riding mine the deal was cinched, after a deal for me to get a ninja zx-6r fell though, she was going to buy mine, she ended up buying a brand new one instead. What's my point... my birthday is coming up next month and I'm now officially old... I get off-topic easily.... my point is, she rode all winter long in the city, and she was able to keep up with us on that ride. And I owe it to her riding during the winter, her skills have improved dramatically from last season. regardless... I'm a baby... so I'm not riding during the winter, that's what my car is for [laugh]
Quote from: IndustrialGrrrl on October 20, 2008, 03:47:58 PM
I'm just "guesstimating" here, but I can feel pretty certain to bet that you two have improved your riding abilities light-years ahead of what you guys where doing last spring. If I'm wrong, tell me....
Quote from: R.J. on October 20, 2008, 04:22:35 PM
GC, you guys ride at a fairly quick pace and just feel newer people that show up are not prepared or don't expect it.
QuoteYou shouldn't feel responsible for people crashing as it's they're own choice on whether or not to push harder. Your "just cruising around the turns" 70% could be someone elses "Oh my god get me off this thing" 130%.
IG, RJ, great posts I'm once again thankful for the insight. As some of the other Suspects and I sat down to a tasty meal tonight we discussed this very matter. While we all agreed that the pace up front has gotten faster this past year, I still hold on to the notion that it has only gotten a small percentage faster.
Meanwhile, while all this riding is going on, I've had several discussions with Cru about the pace we tend to ride and we both agree that it's too fast for the street so earlier this year I made a conscious effort to slow down the pace of the ride. So far this year while riding at the front and setting the pace, I can honestly say that on these Sunday group rides I feel like I'm always holding back, always riding at a casual pace, and always taking my time. So much so that I can allow my mind to wander and I can get into my own head and spend some quality time with myself. A lot of the time, most of my concentration is taken up by the music that going on in my earbuds. Not the smartest thing to do when riding but like I said, I above, I feel like the Sunday rides are a stroll in the park.
In a previous post I mentioned that everyone's riding ability and maybe even more importantly, everyone's
perception is very different and what may be fast and hectic to some, may in fact be ho hum for others.
IG, RJ, I think we're all saying the same thing.
Earlier this year, before all the these accidents started happening, when I was out riding with only the boys, there were moments when I'd ride at what I considered a fast pace - 90%, 9/10ths, however you want to say it. In these rare moments, everything ceased to exist. I never heard my bike, I never heard the music coming for my ipod, I didn't feel the vibration from the bike, and I had no thoughts. Nothing. There was only my body and my bike cohabiting and acting as one. Sounds real corny I know, but it's true. These times are rare and I can count on my fingers when I've allowed myself to get to that state. The first time this state happened this year Cru almost went down. Had he gone down, it wouldn't have pretty and he would've most definitely ended up broken. Picture a chicane, a hard left going into a hard right. Both turns are 90°. I'm not 100% sure what the sign at these turns say but I think they say 10mph. One this particular day, even though I was riding pretty hard, I was curious how fast I was about to enter this set of turns so I snuck a peek at the speedo right at corner entry. I was a little surprised to see 97mph and as I reached the first corner's apex, I was already cracking up from what I saw on the speedo. These are the times that I generally don't post about as I like to keep them for myself, but reflecting on these instances has caused me to slow down a lot on the street and I think I have.
Michelle, as Cru said, I think you hit the nail on the head regarding these group rides. If I want for them to continue to happen, then I'll literally have to putt putt around all day, at least for the open call rides. If I want to have a more spirited ride, I'll have to plainly say that the ride will be spirited and I'll have to pick and choose who all gets to go. If I want to ride fast, well, then I guess I won't post up at all.
Regarding winter riding... Michelle, once again I agree 100% with you. For those that have never ridden with me before, or have ridden with me last season, you'll know all about my "skill building" exercises. For those don't know about these exercises, image a really crappy road. Potholes, dirt, gravel, broken pavement, or simply a dirt road up a mountain. A road fit for only a 4x4. Now imagine that road being twisty and undulating either up or down a mountain or both. To me, this type of road is a "skill building" road. Just like riding in the rain or snow or even ice, nothing will teach you throttle control, how your body position effects how the bike handles, and braking threshold like one of these crappy roads. Wanna learn how to steer the bike with your hips? Ride up and down Flatbush Ave in the rain during rush hour in 2nd gear. Wanna learn how to safely stop your bike from 60mph? Find a parking lot near you, preferably one with a crappy surface and have at it. Wanna learn how to turn the bike using only the throttle and pressure on the pegs? Find a dirt road and go play. Wanna have confidence in the twistys? Go for a ride in the twistys when there's still snow, salt, and ice on the road. By spring, you be a hammer.
These are the things that I think folks who are looking to improve their skills should be doing (aside from proper instruction in a closed environment). These are the things that I think are very worthwhile to learn. Sure I suppose it's cool practicing getting your knee down in an empty parking lot but I think that does little for your skill and ultimately will do nothing for you.
Just a couple of ideas when riding with someone new. Since the basic reason for going fast on the straight is to get to the next turn, slow down after the turns until folks gather up. Last rider catches up, next to the last signals up front, etc until the lead gets the signal. This should reduce the lag between the fast and the not as fast. Corner, sprint, corner, sprint, corner, corner, sprint and before you know it a little faster corner speed plus a little more exit speed leads to a really stretched out group, the slower rider looses sight of the group and starts pushing the limits. Also, no passing on the double yellow or passing groups of cars. Just one more. If the group goes beyond six, split the group.
Leading a group ride is also about picking the right roads. You guys seem to plan the ride around the roads rather than the roads around the ride. If you're taking noobs out, don't go on roads with really super hard sections. That's why I stopped taking people on Ohayo Mountain Road. I had two people go down on that road even after I'd stopped and explained that it was *very* technical and that they should go slow. Human nature is what it is so it doesn't always help to slow down. ;)
On other sites that I've been involved in, most of the time people organize group rides and set the pace. If more people show up or want to go that have a lower skill level then you split groups and have someone lead the slow group slowly. The US rides usually end up with the noobs riding un-assisted (it seems) and that can lead to issues as we've discovered. If you're going to lead a ride then you kind of have to be a leader before you're a rider. You may be a great leader for the US but that doesn't mean that mindset will transfer across to other people. I've lead some big group rides before and while it's not my preference, it's important to be aware of varying skill levels & control the pace. I failed on my last one (that you guys were on I think) when that gixxer dude went down. I think overall we rode at a reasonable pace for most of the people. That's what makes big groups harder. It's not the numbers it's balancing the skill levels with the roads & the pace.
The other undeniable fact is that some people are just better at riding than others. You guys have achieved a lot through riding together & learning together but some people just aren't capable of riding at that level. It doesn't matter how long or far they ride or how much they ride in winter, they'll never be great riders. This isn't a nice realization for people, accepting that they're just not that good and never will be. I have a friend that started riding at the same time as me he just never progressed like I did and didn't really care to. He's a competent rider but I can ride away from him going at like 35%. I've had two friends start riding this past year and I've been leading them around. I take them on some of the roads upstate but most I don't. One of them got better faster (although he's over confident) and the other not so fast (she's more cautious and will probably end up being a better rider for it if she gets over her timidity).
The point is that when you're leading a ride, it's not just another ride, you're a leader not a rider. Same goes for the sweep. You have a job to do. Evaluating people's respective skill levels is important and can be critical to planning a safe & fun ride. When you're riding with friends all about the same level it's a different story, you're actually just navigating, any of you could lead if you all knew the roads.
Good points made here about your relative increase in skill compared to others.
Not to beat a dead horse but... I broke down all the accidents that have taken place during these rides this year in my head and they play out as follows -
- lowside in gravel from running wide
cause - target fiaxation. Rider was a newb following me going ~20mph
- lowside in gravel from running wide
cause - corner entry speed too fast which lead to target fixation. Rider not a newb but still learning.
- lowside (pt.1) from running wide
cause - corner entry speed too fast, not looking through turn. Rider not a newb but still learning.
- lowside (pt.2)
cause - target fixation. Rider not a newb but was probably following the rider in front of them too closely and ended up fixating on them while they ran wide and crashed. Was a good thing the rider in front didn't get run over.
- smacked into a rock wall
cause - corner entry speed too fast. Experienced rider but might have felt pressure from the rider behind as they were following very close.
- lowside
cause - target fixation coupled with too much front brake. Riding in hectic twistys IS NOT the place to learn how to trail brake!!
- lowside
cause - corner entry speed too fast.
- lowside
cause - corner entry speed too fast.
- lowside
cause - target fixation.
Do you guys see a pattern here? Of all these accidents, I'd consider only 2 riders to be newbs. Newbs with skills, but newbs nonetheless. What we have hear are people riding over their limits plain and simple. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but these accidents happened when I was leading and the pace that I set was moderate at best. By moderate, I mean I was hovering around 40% or 4/10ths which is where I hover when I feel like a moderate pace. Only one of the accidents happened when I as the "leader" was riding about 80% or 8/10ths.
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 07:32:39 AM
The point is that when you're leading a ride, it's not just another ride, you're a leader not a rider... You have a job to do.
Get out of my head Dan, these exact thoughts have already been coursing through my little brain. The future group ride postings will be amended along these lines. I still feel like I hold a lot of the responsibility for these accidents since I was leading so I'm listening to whatever you smart folks have to say.
Quote from: goldenchild on October 21, 2008, 12:18:11 PM
Get out of my head Dan, these exact thoughts have already been coursing through my little brain. The future group ride postings will be amended along these lines. I still feel like I hold a lot of the responsibility for these accidents since I was leading so I'm listening to whatever you smart folks have to say.
Ok my turn. Now listen up i usually am always joking around but after some thought i have some serious words on this subject.
I know you must feel like these accidents are your fault GC but plain and simple they are not. People might want to catch up and not be the one left behind but you know what? Every single ride you tell everyone to ride at a pace they are comfortable at IT IS NOT A RACE. And judging from most of the accidents this year a lot of them seem to be common mistakes that a lot of us have been guilty of.
Target fixation seems like the main reason and for one is a common issue and its something not everybody knows about right away. For those who have done other sports that involve pretty much anything that moves you are familiar with this mistake, always look where you want to go.
Coming in too fast? We have all been guilty of it but i would say that a lot of roads have posted signs with a recommended speed if you feel that you are too unfamiliar with the next turn or road take it down a notch. I have come to plenty of signs that read 25mph but it was completely blind and i brought it down to 20mph.
Those are my opinions on that but this is the main part here. Everyone and i mean EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions i do not buy the whole blaming it on somebody else bullshit. I have crashed on 10mph turn and you know what it was COMPLETELY my fault i knew my tires were cold, i knew i should have hung off the bike so my bike would have stayed more upright but i did not and therefore i kissed pavement. I learned from this though....
You can not go blaming the leader if he has consistently warned you about how technical the roads are and to ride at your own pace. Because GC you do stop at every intersection after the twisties and wait and you do not yell at the person if they are going slow. On both rides i have been on i have been far from the fastest and i took my time, just because i could not see you does not mean i rode any faster. I was responsible for my own personal safety not the guy who was 5 bike lengths or even a 1/4 mile ahead of me. They are not controlling my throttle, body position, braking, and overall situational awareness I AM. If i eat shit in that next corner because i came in at 100mph even though the turn read 30mph thats my fault.
Granted there is a responsibility for the group as a whole and since you are leading you do feel some guilt for all that has happened. I would feel the same way and i understand where you are coming from. Granted i have not lead many motorcycle rides but i have been leading plenty of other sports for years. However it is not like you are leading people down a cliff drop snowboarding, double black diamond, or say a 10foot drop mountain biking or 15foot waves surfing in the middle of a storm. These are roads that any car can travel on so if you slow down and work on just being smooth you will be ok. Accidents and mistakes happen and the best you can do is be prepared for and minimizing them by wearing proper gear, having warm tires, researching proper techniques and practicing. But most importantly people have to learn from their mistakes and if we NEVER EVER made a mistake nobody would ever improve.
I do see as the super long rides and fatigue can really were some people out, however i felt that this is understood from your posts for signups of each ride. I personally know that i need a good nights rest before hand, a good dinner and to be mentally prepared. There are certain things someone should do before participating in any sport that would seem common knowledge to a lot of us. But this is not always the case and maybe we all need to make a collective effort to post things such as preride rituals so others can learn what to do before a big ride.
I guess though a lot of people do not see it through my eyes, to some its always a competition, granted i am competitive but at anywhere above 60mph on roads i do not know i suppress that a bit. I do think though that being more selective on your rides will bring more joy to you and everyone who rides with you. If you need to unwind and have a fast day then take whoever you know can keep up.
However if you want a ride to meet new people and just take it easy make it open call, and maybe map out some easier routes this will ease your mind and everybody else on the ride., from those rides you can figure out who to bring on the more advanced rides next time. You could also post or pm the route beforehand, if possible i know you are changing them up until sunday morning, that way getting people comfortable with where they are going to be. You have to look out for yourself too, remember this sport is about having fun if your not having fun why ride?
In the end though we are all responsible for our own actions we ride our own bikes not the rider in front or behind us. That's my opinion and i am in no way looking to fight with anybody here thats why they are opinions and not everybody agrees with them.
Quote from: GLantern on October 21, 2008, 12:52:26 PMGranted there is a responsibility for the group as a whole and since you are leading you do feel some guilt for all that has happened. I would feel the same way and i understand where you are coming from. Granted i have not lead many motorcycle rides but i have been leading plenty of other sports for years. However it is not like you are leading people down a cliff drop snowboarding, double black diamond, or say a 10foot drop mountain biking or 15foot waves surfing in the middle of a storm. These are roads that any car can travel on so if you slow down and work on just being smooth you will be ok. Accidents and mistakes happen and the best you can do is be prepared for and minimizing them by wearing proper gear, having warm tires, researching proper techniques and practicing. But most importantly people have to learn from their mistakes and if we NEVER EVER made a mistake nobody would ever improve.
I have to disagree here.
The thing about riding a motorcycle is that you can be on the same stretch of road and have it be like a mosey through the park on one pass and then like you're free basing napalm on the next. I ride some of my roads at a snoozy 60mph average (I can do that pretty easily in the car) or I can pick up the pace to like 80 or 90. That's not riding my limits. When I have noobs following me, I may not even get to the speed limit. I'm going at their pace because I'm leading them. If I'm riding with buddies who are at my level (or who I know are very good at riding their own ride) then I'll go whatever speed I'm happy. The main distinction is that if you're leading a group ride, you set the pace based on the speed of the group. If you're riding with buddies it's a different story.
I agree that Eric isn't responsible for these accidents because his hand wasn't on the bars, however, in the interests of minimizing accidents, the leader should ride at the pace of the group, not the other way around. If there are multiple skill levels, the group needs to be split up. The reason for this distinction is that riding a motorcycle at speed has a large mental component (like a cliff drop) with a corresponding skill requirement. The faster you go the higher the skill level required but also the more taxing it is mentally for people that are pushing their limits. Some people reach a point where they're going to be overloaded and then, you guessed it, fixate & go down.
This isn't anything new here guys, this is what group riding is about - the group. If you're (not specifically you GC) not into that idea then think about not running group rides and sticking to just riding with friends.
There is some really good insight in this thread.
It is not the ride leaders fault...
it is his/her responsibility to realize that as the group grows everything needs to change.
None of us recognize our progress in riding ability.
We don't perceive how much faster we've gotten.
Michelle can probably tell a story about how I was reprimanded for forgetting just that.
Ride safe everyone.
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 01:36:42 PM
I have to disagree here.
I think we've come full circle and I agree with Evil.
I feel like we can discuss this til we're all blue in the face, or at least until we all get carpel tunnel and we still won't agree which isn't a bad thing and it certainly makes for an interesting and active NYMMC [clap] (it's about time people, SHEESH).
For the remainder of the season and for seasons to come I'll be running my rides differently, stay tuned for details. I also want to say thanks everyone for your participation, openess and advice in this dilemma, you've all been a great help.
fag
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
Hopefully I can join you some time. :)
For a ride...
On motorcycles...
Each on our own motorcycles...
[laugh]
Why am I a cigarette?
I have several off color responses but I'll give it a rest. :)
I don't totally agree with setting a pace. It's tricky business and in my experience it can lull a following rider into a false sense of security. If you hold back for the people behind you, there's a good chance they're holding back most of the time too so they don't run up your ass. Your mind might wander and you gradually up the pace without noticing or you hit a very technical section of road and suddenly someone behind you is in over their head. They've been following you the whole ride easily matching the pace you set, now they're in trouble and they didn't see it coming.
Quote from: goldenchild on October 21, 2008, 12:18:11 PM
Not to beat a dead horse but... I broke down all the accidents that have taken place during these rides this year in my head and they play out as follows -
- lowside (pt.1) from running wide
cause - corner entry speed too fast, not looking through turn. Rider not a newb but still learning.
That sounds awfully familiar 8).
Quote from: univox on October 22, 2008, 05:58:19 AMI don't totally agree with setting a pace. It's tricky business and in my experience it can lull a following rider into a false sense of security. If you hold back for the people behind you, there's a good chance they're holding back most of the time too so they don't run up your ass. Your mind might wander and you gradually up the pace without noticing or you hit a very technical section of road and suddenly someone behind you is in over their head. They've been following you the whole ride easily matching the pace you set, now they're in trouble and they didn't see it coming.
So don't run group rides. It is a tricky business, which is why I say that a group ride is not like riding with your buddies. I disagree that holding back means everyone else is holding back too. Yes, it's been said that not running a good pace can lead to inattentiveness however, you've failed in the example that you give to set an appropriate pace an evaluate the riders in your group.
The point of setting a pace is so that the whole group can enjoy the ride *on a group ride*. If your group is too disparate in skills to run one pace, break the group up into smaller groups. The idea of setting a viable pace is not to run a group ride in the vein of a HD charity event but to set a pace such that everyone can enjoy the corners and relax in the straights. The Pace (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=117.0) is still applied in order for everyone to ride their own speed but this must be tempered by the good of the group. What you seem to be talking about is setting a pace that is too slow. Quite frankly, you can't account for people who aren't paying attention, if people have an inclination to drift off, don't invite them or have them run a faster group.
Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do, people go down. I've been on a ride where someone ran off the road going under the speed limit, on a two lane (each direction) highway because their mind was on other things. I had planned to talk to him at the next stop (I was running sweep) and let him know that he needed to concentrate more because he'd been running wide on several very easy corners. He had been running at his own pace, just wasn't there. In this example, the leader could have stopped the ride & talked to him. I could have done the same. The next stop was only like 15 minutes away.
This is where personal responsibility & maturity come into the picture. This person should never have been riding that day. He had some pretty serious family issues going on. He wanted to take his mind off of them but couldn't. He should have stayed home or stopped riding. The leader (a good friend of mine) set a good pace, the sweep (me) was keeping an eye on the guy (he was pretty new) but we just didn't catch it in time. Do I feel responsible? No way in hell. I'm not at the controls, nor did I force him out the door onto his bike that morning.
Like I said, leading a group ride is not the same as going for a ride. It take a lot of skill, judgment and awareness to run a group at a safe speed. I'm not saying I'm the expert here, I'm just trying to really spell out the differences in what we often call a group ride and what is actually a group ride.
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 22, 2008, 10:58:49 AM
If your group is too disparate in skills to run one pace, break the group up into smaller groups.
The Pace (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=117.0) is still applied in order for everyone to ride their own speed but this must be tempered by the good of the group.
leading a group ride is not the same as going for a ride. It take a lot of skill, judgment and awareness to run a group at a safe speed.
Word! Couldn't have said it better myself.
Set the group and pace you want to ride and DQ folks (both too inexperienced or too aggressive) who won't abide by your rules.
Quote from: tommys67 on October 22, 2008, 07:39:25 AM
That sounds awfully familiar 8).
Mmm. That one was me... :P
Quote from: IndustrialGrrrl on October 20, 2008, 03:26:29 AM
As for me, I had the longest 120mile ride today with Ramapo. lol. Took our group (RJ joined us and that was a pleasant surprise) all day doing (what must have been) below the speed limit the whole ride, but it was a nice way to end my season, their route was awesome, even with a GPS and the route plugged in I doubt I could find the roads they planned out, the scenery was beautiful. We met up for breakfast and stopped for lunch. [bacon] yummm food. (it's a foodie group, I went with) Luckily I made it home, the monster wasn't happy going so slow lol... naa the gauges once again are caput, this time the bike shut off on me completely (2x) while I was riding in the morning, thankfully I was only doing about 2 mph for a turnoff the 1st time, and about 10-15 mph the second time. See I wouldn't know exactly how slow/fast I was going as the needle of the speedometer fell off months ago. [laugh] So the bike gets torn down again now...... sad to see my season end, but we did manage to get in 7 trackdays in this year, so I have all those photos to look at this winter to get me through.
My bad incident was after a bathroom break, when we were on the side of a road with very heavy traffic, (were only on this road for the equivalent of 3 blocks, and the only traffic we saw all day), no one would let us merge back in, I saw a opening, and the woman driving a car behind me I guess decided she was going to speed up and not let us in.... and we both tried to occupy the same spot at the same time..... the car won of course, so we sort of collided. My ankle came off the peg as she hit me, and my leg got pinned then between the car and the peg........ I'm ok though. I think I got home in time to ice it up my ankle and take 3 motrin, it's not hurting this morning as I write this. In a strange turn of luck, Terry didn't make it out today, as he wasn't 100% still fighting the tail end of this dreaded cold, if he was there... I think the [leo] [leo] would've taken everyone away...... [laugh]
Hey M, I'm glad you're ok. heard from Ramapo MC regarding a minor incident during the foliage and didn't know it was you until I read your post. I did the DESMO ride instead of the RMC foliage ride and GC's ride.