We had an "S2R 1000 flat spot" thread a couple of weeks ago and we all described our woes and gave theories of what the problem was and what the fix was.
Well Bazz20 posted that he "tricked his bike to think it is cold."
This interested me as I knew my S2R 1000 ran better when it was cold. I PMed Bazz20 and asked for info. He sent me this link http://www.celoxperformance.com/powermodule.html (http://www.celoxperformance.com/powermodule.html) and told me that he got one from Ebay.
I linked to Ebay from their site and ordered one...$17.71 USD, delivered.
Got it yesterday and installed it last evening. Took the Monster for a ride this afternoon. Temp was high 50's F and I really wasn't expecting much as the bike ran better in the cold anyway.
Wow !!!
I described my bike's problem as "juttering". At low speeds, low RPM it would judder and even had a clicking sound comming from the motor. To me it felt like the ECU was doing an on/off, on/off, on/off to the fuel delivery.
Well today I was crusing in 5th and 6th at 2500 RPM and the bike was absolutely smooth! Unheard of prior to the addition of this sub $20 part. Even seemed smoother in all gears at every speed.
Proceedure: Disconnect battery, remove two headlight bolts and lower headlight from the brackets. unplug air temp sensor and push two bare wires from the part into the "communication" sockets of the plug where the sensor was plugged into. Tape everything back up and reinstall the head light and take your "new bike" for a ride...You will be amazed.
What do you have to loose anyway $20 and an hour of your time? Completely reversible if you hate it...so you are out $20 if you do.
IMO and on my bike, this is the best mod I have made to the bike with respect to performance and "bang for the buck" ...bar none!
Well, you paid nearly $20 for a $3 resistor.
Does your bike tell you what the air temp is?
BC.
Glad to hear your bike is running well. It is a good feeling when a motorcycle starts to run they way you knew it should.
I wonder if there are any hazards now that bike has been tricked to think it is cold. Could this affect the engine in any way?
Quote from: Travman on October 16, 2008, 09:14:06 PM
I wonder if there are any hazards now that bike has been tricked to think it is cold. Could this affect the engine in any way?
Sure, the bike now uses exactly the same fuel mapping regardless of actual temperature. When it's hot, the bike is likely to run very rich.
Quote from: Bladecutter on October 16, 2008, 08:07:38 PM
Well, you paid nearly $20 for a $3 resistor.
[laugh] gotta love the haters!
You could also spend $80 for what I hear is a $5 resistor w/some adjustments.
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11272.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=11272.0)
Quote from: mmakay on October 16, 2008, 09:54:48 PM
Sure, the bike now uses exactly the same fuel mapping regardless of actual temperature. When it's hot, the bike is likely to run very rich.
the bike does not run very rich , yes it does richern it up but only too the point of where it should be , and once you reach 4 grand all the censor become redundant anyway and as for being a 3 dollar resistor well it comes in a little case to protect it and out here in the sticks spending a hundred bucks on fuel to drive to an electrical shop seems a bit backwards to me [bang]
Quote from: Bladecutter on October 16, 2008, 08:07:38 PM
Well, you paid nearly $20 for a $3 resistor.
Does your bike tell you what the air temp is?
BC.
Well I paid $20 for someone to know what size resistor to put in a little black box, instructions to tell me where to put it, a website letting me know that this item exists and what it can do for my motorcycle, packaging to hold the item while it is shipped to me and shipping directly to my mail box.....
Without a doubt, the best $20 I've spent on that bike since I bought it!
Capitalism, entrepreneurism...gotta love it!
Does the bike tell me what the air temp is??? Huh?
Wonder if I could do this for my EURO 3 norm 695 as well..
I noticed that click on-off thing too and I bet its to to that eco crap going on.
Wonder how the Lambda probe would like it.
Quote from: ArguZ on October 17, 2008, 03:51:22 AM
Wonder if I could do this for my EURO 3 norm 695 as well..
I noticed that click on-off thing too and I bet its to to that eco crap going on.
Wonder how the Lambda probe would like it.
it works fine with the lambada censor , im just letting people know thats theres a cheap fix out there and this is the second bike ive had it on , and its no different to what people are doing with o2 censors or buying a dpcu or any other command chip and i dont have any affiliation with the people who sell the product , i was a little skeptical at first too but at 20 buck thought why knot but it does work and works well [thumbsup]
Quote from: bazz20 on October 17, 2008, 05:04:29 AM
....its no different to what people are doing with o2 censors or buying a dpcu or any other command chip....
Don't fool yourself, its nothing like having a DP ECU, or PCIII, or any other type of remapping....... I'm not saying it won't seem to run better, but its not going to run as well as it could (should) under the full range of conditions.
Quote from: bazz20 on October 17, 2008, 12:18:47 AM
....and once you reach 4 grand all the censor become redundant anyway....
How do you know this? There is some speculation that the ECU ignores the inputs from the O2 sensor when the rpms are higher than some threshold
and the throttle is opened more than some threshold percentage. What makes you think it stops using the inputs from the temp sensor and the baro sensor? On my S2R1K, that widget you're messing with also provides the atmospheric pressure input for the ECU. Does your mod preserve this function? Have you verified that the engine runs well at sea level and 5000 ft altitude? I suppose if you don't have any hills in your area this may not matter to you....
Quote from: bazz20 on October 17, 2008, 12:18:47 AM
the bike does not run very rich , yes it does richern it up but only too the point of where it should be , and once you reach 4 grand all the censor become redundant anyway and as for being a 3 dollar resistor well it comes in a little case to protect it and out here in the sticks spending a hundred bucks on fuel to drive to an electrical shop seems a bit backwards to me [bang]
You said you tested it in the "high 50's". I'm just saying that you might get very rich when it's a lot hotter out. Like in the 90's.
Quote from: Old-Duckman on October 17, 2008, 02:18:32 AM
Well I paid $20 for someone to know what size resistor to put in a little black box, instructions to tell me where to put it, a website letting me know that this item exists and what it can do for my motorcycle, packaging to hold the item while it is shipped to me and shipping directly to my mail box.....
Without a doubt, the best $20 I've spent on that bike since I bought it!
Capitalism, entrepreneurism...gotta love it!
Does the bike tell me what the air temp is??? Huh?
How'd you old guys are so smart. ;D
LA
Quote from: mmakay on October 17, 2008, 08:06:05 AM
You said you tested it in the "high 50's". I'm just saying that you might get very rich when it's a lot hotter out. Like in the 90's.
+1
you dont know if its a spits out a constant temp reading, or it takes actual and subtracts a percentage from it. Also, how do you know the guy even did the math right?
How many more moles of air are there in 50 degree air vs the air temp they decide to put it at?
atleast with the 02 sensor the engine is trying to reach a specific value.
It is a known fact that nothing is more precise and will yield the same results as dyno tuning. However, if the seat of the pants dyno can notice that much of a difference it is undoubtedly money well spent. Unless the cylinders are washing out it's much better for an engine to run a bit rich than to run lean. Just my .005
Granted that I have only ridden it in 50-ish F temps. My Monster ran better when it was cold anyway so if I noticed major improvent in chilly weather I am hoping that I will have favorable results in the warmer weather too...though time will surely tell
Alas we will see no 90's for at least 9 months (barring some weather fluke)...and maybe not then. Believe me I am looking forward to testing it out in the 80's but also unlikely for many moons...high forecast for next week is one day of 65.
Changes in elevation: Yes the sensor is also a pressure as well as temp sensor (according to the Ducati workshop manual). I have nearly 16,000 miles on the Monster and probably have not had it over 300 miles in any one direction from my home. I do my touring on a '99' ST4. So for me, elevation changes are not a concern.
That said, I would think it would be no worse to deal with than a carburated vehicle. You can tune a carb for higher elevations by rejetting. If you were planning to ride some time in a much higher elevation...this is a very easily reversible mod. Remove 2 headlight bolts, remove tape, unplug the black box, plug the sensor back in, two bolts back in headlight...What, 20 minutes max...Much, much easier than rejetting a carb.
What I find most interesting is that some of the responses act like I am suggesting you cut off your family jewels and hope that the bike runs better because of your sacrafice...Hey, it's 20 bucks, 20 minutes...I see no reason to gripe, if you don't want to spend so little time and effort to at least see if it will improve how your bike runs...Frankly I couldn't care less...I was just passing on a cheap fix that seems to have worked wonders on my S2R 1000. Do with the info what you want.
Quote from: Old-Duckman on October 17, 2008, 02:26:29 PM
What I find most interesting is that some of the responses act like I am suggesting you cut off your family jewels and hope that the bike runs better because of your sacrafice...Hey, it's 20 bucks, 20 minutes...I see no reason to gripe, if you don't want to spend so little time and effort to at least see if it will improve how your bike runs...Frankly I couldn't care less...I was just passing on a cheap fix that seems to have worked wonders on my S2R 1000. Do with the info what you want.
[laugh] Great response man! [thumbsup]
Quote from: arai_speed on October 17, 2008, 02:46:17 PM
[laugh] Great response man! [thumbsup]
[thumbsup] What is up with all the haters? The man said it worked on his bike and now he wants to pass his experience on to you. You can use his experience and apply it or just read this thread and move on. Simple as that. Give the guy a break.
Thanks Old-Duckman for the heads-up. [beer]
Quote from: Old-Duckman on October 17, 2008, 02:26:29 PM
Changes in elevation: Yes the sensor is also a pressure as well as temp sensor (according to the Ducati workshop manual). I have nearly 16,000 miles on the Monster and probably have not had it over 300 miles in any one direction from my home. I do my touring on a '99' ST4. So for me, elevation changes are not a concern.
As I said, if you don't live around hills the lack of altitude compensation may not matter to you. For some of us, at least here in cali, we routinely travel from sea level to +5000 feet in a matter of minutes. Not having the compensation for altitude would be undesirable. I only pointed this out so that others considering this mod would be aware that it is not a panacea.
FYI, most carbs nowadays automatically compensate for altitude changes. They have diaphragms that react to the change in pressure and in turn modify the mixture.
Hope it works out for you, given your limited range of travel you might be all set....
Quote from: Ivan on October 17, 2008, 03:53:24 PM
As I said, if you don't live around hills the lack of altitude compensation may not matter to you. For some of us, at least here in cali, we routinely travel from sea level to +5000 feet in a matter of minutes. Not having the compensation for altitude would be undesirable. I only pointed this out so that others considering this mod would be aware that it is not a panacea.
FYI, most carbs nowadays automatically compensate for altitude changes. They have diaphragms that react to the change in pressure and in turn modify the mixture.
Hope it works out for you, given your limited range of travel you might be all set....
ill live beside the see and and travel on roads higher than 5000 feet and cant tell any differents but im still running the o2 censor
Quote from: bazz20 on October 17, 2008, 04:13:12 PM
ill live beside the see and and travel on roads higher than 5000 feet and cant tell any differents but im still running the o2 censor
You have an EFI bike. theres a barometric sensor where your headlamp is. its that thing with a cone shape thing with slits in it.
Quote from: Ivan on October 17, 2008, 03:53:24 PM
As I said, if you don't live around hills the lack of altitude compensation may not matter to you. For some of us, at least here in cali, we routinely travel from sea level to +5000 feet in a matter of minutes. Not having the compensation for altitude would be undesirable. I only pointed this out so that others considering this mod would be aware that it is not a panacea.
FYI, most carbs nowadays automatically compensate for altitude changes. They have diaphragms that react to the change in pressure and in turn modify the mixture.
Hope it works out for you, given your limited range of travel you might be all set....
Old Duckman lives in an area where 300 miles encompasses sea level to 5000+ feet as well. Not as quickly as in so cal, but it's still something he will be able to report on in the future.
Quote from: ICON on October 17, 2008, 03:19:11 PM
[thumbsup] What is up with all the haters? The man said it worked on his bike and now he wants to pass his experience on to you. You can use his experience and apply it or just read this thread and move on. Simple as that. Give the guy a break.
Thanks Old-Duckman for the heads-up. [beer]
Another +1 on taking the time to let other people know about something that worked for you. I might just try this thing so that we can have another opnion.
[beer]
UPDATE: Just ordered one off Ebay, so I'll give you another opinion as soon as it shows up. We should still have enough riding time here in Texas to evaluate it [moto]
I appreciate the people who understood where I was comming from. Hope it works out good for anyone who tries one.
I'll be curious to hear results.
Quote from: He Man on October 17, 2008, 04:18:13 PM
You have an EFI bike. theres a barometric sensor where your headlamp is. its that thing with a cone shape thing with slits in it.
i know where it was cause it aint there now , my old 900 ss couldent tell the difference either but runs the same up the mountain when i tune out board motors for the lakes , thats up in the mountains here well over 5000 feet the difference is a quarter off a turn on the mixer scew but again its only for idle
so the part is modifying the output of the temp sensor and telling the ecu the air is colder than it actually is?
i'm not sure how that'd effect the closed loop operation, but that should still produce the same running given the air temp is not a controlling input there. it will run richer when open loop, but i'd expect the closed loop to override that. i think duane told me that someone from marelli told him that the 5.9m tend to not use ambient air temp based spark advance trims.
if you could tell the ecu that the engine temp got to 60 degrees (celcius), but never hotter it'd run open loop all the time as that comes in at 65 degrees from my s2r1000 playing, but the engine temp trim should be almost zero by then - both fuel and spark. if you hooked up a mathesis or dds you'd be able to work out what resistance is required in the engine temp sensor to replicate that temp, but then you'd need to set up some way of letting the resistance change for temps under 60 so you still got cold start enrichment. might work.
the 1.5m ecu bikes have ambient air pressure sensors inside the ecu, whereas the 5.9m bikes have the 4 wire air temp and pressure sensor.
I envy you guys with the EFI.
These carbs are hard to adjust. At least on my bike they are. You gotta take half of everything apart just to get at them.
Finally got the chip or box or whatever you want to call this part. Will hopefully get it installed sometime this week and test it out next week end.
Quote from: Bladecutter on October 16, 2008, 08:07:38 PM
Well, you paid nearly $20 for a $3 resistor...
If you paid $3 for that resistor you got ripped off. ;D
...and on the topic of whether you should do
any of this or not, my reply is:
"I think we're ALL GOING TO DIE."
Eventually.
I did the same thing to my M750CRi.e. back in '02 when I converted it to efi. I went to Radio Shack and bought a 0-10K ohm variable resistor and wired it in series with the stock ambient air temp sensor. Fired up the bike and turned the knob till it ran better according to my 'seat of the pants' dyno. I know it worked because if you took it to zero ohms, the thing popped and chugged as it was ultra lean. Turned it all the way up and it blew black smoke (way too rich). The efi system I put it on was a non-feedback type (no lambda/oxygen sensor) '99 SS750i.e. system I pirated off of a salvage wreck I bought.
I *KNOW* it's not a proper fix, but since I had an hour and $5 into it...and it did make the bike run better for my time/energy involved...I let it run like that for a couple years. Then I found a used DP SS ecu and no longer had a need for my 'home-brewed' solution.
Your Mileage May Vary. Try at your own risk. I warrant NO success if you do this to your bike. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: SA_S2R on November 02, 2008, 07:07:44 PM
Finally got the chip or box or whatever you want to call this part. Will hopefully get it installed sometime this week and test it out next week end.
Curious to hear your results. I am still 100 percent pleased. I was able to get the Monster out on some high 60-ish days and still remarkably smoother than prior to this mod...
I couldn't be happier!
Quote from: SUPER DUKE! on November 02, 2008, 08:17:31 PM
If you paid $3 for that resistor you got ripped off. ;D
...and on the topic of whether you should do any of this or not, my reply is:
"I think we're ALL GOING TO DIE."
Eventually.
If this is a rip off...it is the best $20 rip-off I ever dropped a 20 on!
It is so funny to me that you guys will spend $150 on mirrors that replace ones that worked as good or better...(bet they are about $20 worth of glass and aluminum too) but you act like this is the stupidist thing that one can do to their bike.
I Laugh as I enjoy the smoothness this $20 rip-off brings to my bike every time I fire it up and go for a ride!
I've been looking for a local S2R1000. I'll be sure to remember your $20 fix if I have any smoothness problems.
Probably will not be able to get to it until the weekend. Is the air sensor like a little cone with slits in it?
Quote from: SA_S2R on November 05, 2008, 04:33:57 PM
Probably will not be able to get to it until the weekend. Is the air sensor like a little cone with slits in it?
Yep, that's it.
Since the wires comming out of the black box have no spade, or other kind of fitting on them (just two thin bare wires) I folded the end of each wire back on itself to give it more contact area with the plug on the monster wiring harness.
I think it would have been nice if they had supplied solder on or crimp on adaptors for the bikes it fits and you could fit those to the wires prior to attaching the box to you wiring harness...Oh well.
BTW on my Monster (06 S2R 1000) you plug the wires from the black box into the wiring harness plug to contact the grey/black and the grey/red wire. These are the info wires, not the power and ground wires. It doesn't matter which wire from the box goes to those two wires on the harness.
I only removed the two bolts that the headlight pivots on (big allen head bolt on each side of the headlight) put a towel on the front fender and let the headlight lay on the towel/fender when I was installing the box. As the instructions say, tape up both the box and the unplugged sensor. Make sure you tape both up well so no water gets into either the unplugged sensor (in case you want to hook it up at some later time) or the wiring harness of the bike.
Sounds more complicated that it is. Now that you know which wires to plug into, it should be a 15 minute job max ! Most of my time was spent verifying which wires in the harness to plug into.
how about "fat duc 02" for $80 Has anyone tried it?
Quote from: Old-Duckman on November 05, 2008, 08:03:34 PM
Yep, that's it.
Since the wires comming out of the black box have no spade, or other kind of fitting on them (just two thin bare wires) I folded the end of each wire back on itself to give it more contact area with the plug on the monster wiring harness.
I think it would have been nice if they had supplied solder on or crimp on adaptors for the bikes it fits and you could fit those to the wires prior to attaching the box to you wiring harness...Oh well.
BTW on my Monster (06 S2R 1000) you plug the wires from the black box into the wiring harness plug to contact the grey/black and the grey/red wire. These are the info wires, not the power and ground wires. It doesn't matter which wire from the box goes to those two wires on the harness.
I only removed the two bolts that the headlight pivots on (big allen head bolt on each side of the headlight) put a towel on the front fender and let the headlight lay on the towel/fender when I was installing the box. As the instructions say, tape up both the box and the unplugged sensor. Make sure you tape both up well so no water gets into either the unplugged sensor (in case you want to hook it up at some later time) or the wiring harness of the bike.
Sounds more complicated that it is. Now that you know which wires to plug into, it should be a 15 minute job max ! Most of my time was spent verifying which wires in the harness to plug into.
Thanks for the write up on how you installed this, as I was not too impressed with the installation instructions that came with the box. Anyway, as soon as I can burn off some gas this weekend I'll do the install and report back.
Quote from: Orangettes on November 05, 2008, 10:45:08 PM
how about "fat duc 02" for $80 Has anyone tried it?
I did a Google search and it sure sounds like a nice set-up. I read a brief write-up at Web bike world. The guy loved it. I like the fact that it is adjustable. Though the adjustability is nice to have...I don't have any equipment to tell me how must adjustment it would require. The guy in the article says he thinks he must have adjusted his right by blind luck and he is not about to mess around with it.
Might be a good idea to pick one up (before those who know what's best for us, take them off the market) and put it on the shelf to take to the mechanic with the bike the next time I get it tuned. I wonder if it would work in conjuction with black box I have on now?
Actually his results sound very similar to mine with the exception that his was 4 times the price of what the black box costs...Still an inexpensive fix.
It is a shame that we have to play these games that the enviro-weenies have foisted on us in the name of "global warming" or some other such bogus nonsense...Let my bike breath the way it wants to!! and leave me alone! (soapbox mode off)
The Fat Duc 02 works and allows the air fuel mixture to be adjusted. I had the dealer put one on my Multistrada 1100 and have put 500 miles on it in a week. It smoothed out all the roughness, it does not give you an increase in power just takes care of the lean issue. At a 1000 miles the dealer is going to pull the plugs and o2 sensor to see what they look like.
Got the box installed, but unfortunatly have not had much of a chance to try it out. I did fire the bike up and cruised around the neighborhood in 1st and 2nd and it did seem smoother. Will post a full update when I get a chance to put some miles on the bike.
OK - had my first chance to do a run on a local raod with some twisties and I must say that it did feel smoother. I wouldn't go so far as to say you could roll on the throttle at 2,500 rpm in 6th and it be smooth, but it was better. One thing that was noticibly better was the ability to cruise in 6th around 65-70 with out it feeling like it was chugging.
Will update again after I get a few more miles on it.
SA_S2R, glad it is working for you.
Unfortunately we probably just had our last nice weather for awhile, yesterday.
Either way I have the Monster in the basement for winter storage and would need to turn it around (tight squeese in there at the moment) so, I don't expect to be riding till spring of 09...a bit of a depressing thought.
Did you do any "around town"riding yet? Great improvement on my bike it that rev/speed range. I also noticed big improvement just putting around local roads in the 45 - 50 MPH, 5 & 6th gear areas.
Quote from: Old-Duckman on November 15, 2008, 03:38:18 AM
SA_S2R, glad it is working for you.
Unfortunately we probably just had our last nice weather for awhile, yesterday.
Either way I have the Monster in the basement for winter storage and would need to turn it around (tight squeese in there at the moment) so, I don't expect to be riding till spring of 09...a bit of a depressing thought.
Did you do any "around town"riding yet? Great improvement on my bike it that rev/speed range. I also noticed big improvement just putting around local roads in the 45 - 50 MPH, 5 & 6th gear areas.
I did try it out for a few more days and did get preety good results with it, however I did notice a really strong smell of gas when letting the bike warm up in the mornings. Drivability was much improved though in the 3-4,000 rpm range and overall I was happy with the results especially given the bargain price of $20.
Ultimately unplugging the temp and pressure sensor did not sit well with me and and I decided to order a Fat-Duc O2 Manipulator. I replaced the black box with the Fat-Duc and have been happy with the results.
If anybody wants to a getly used black box for $10 +S&H then PM me.