This was in the weekend news. It appears that Utah is taking the first steps to a graduated licensing system.
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/10/16/utah-implementing-multi-level-motorcycle-license/ (http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2008/10/16/utah-implementing-multi-level-motorcycle-license/)
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10726865 (http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10726865)
I'm glad I already got mine.
I'm local to Utah, and with all the new scooter and motorcycle riders, who don't have licenses and are driving bikes because of gas prices, we really haven't had many more rider deaths (which really surprises me).
I'd bet there are twice as many riders as there were a few years ago, but definitely not twice as many deaths.
Bravo !
First two years 125, then two years 600, then open...that would be it.
And yes...still with 16...not starting with 18 like here.
You guys are sooooo lucky [moto]
Really, its like the idea of giving up some freedoms for a bit of security.... Shouldnt you have a right to buy the biggest baddest whatever you can afford? I thought we had that right in the US?
If they make it fair enough (though i have my own ideas of fair) id be for it. As it stands it doesnt have much of a distinction between bike classes so we will see how it develops.
Perhaps if they have varying tests for each class with no time restriction in between and a clear class distinction (we all know 600cc 4v I4 does not = to 620cc Monster or any vtwin cruiser). but they said they still dont know the full story behind it yet, so we'll wait and see i guess.
Good news. Hopefully more states follow.
Personally I think a power to weight ratio with upper limits on weight & power for each license would probably be best but it's hard to work out.
Quote from: He Man on October 20, 2008, 09:20:52 AM
Really, its like the idea of giving up some freedoms for a bit of security.... Shouldnt you have a right to buy the biggest baddest whatever you can afford? I thought we had that right in the US?
A driver's license is NOT a right - ever.
I like what truckers have... they have a newb license and when they go a certain period of time without incident or tickets they get an A license (or some other name for it) which says they have proven to be safer driver (granted it is not perfect - but works for the majority).
The problem with that method for bikes is you would have to ride for quite a while before you would be able to get the A license... and some ride only a few k a year while others ride a 1000miles a month.
I think its a good idea.
We have situations crop up all the time where a kid goes and buys a bike, total newbie, and ends up getting hurt terribly or killed within hours of owning it.
Gotta say though, you can't cure stupid. A person can kill themselves just as easily on 250 if they are intent on being wreckless.
Motorcycle deaths have actually gone up.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4571562 (http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4571562)
Ohio does not have a graduated licensing, but when I got my first MC endorsement, the bottom said M Novice. When I renew, it will just say M.
Quote from: SP3 on October 20, 2008, 11:48:31 AM
A driver's license is NOT a right - ever.
I never said it (drivers license) wasn't a right. I think you're mistaken about what I was trying to say.
you have the RIGHT to buy whatever you wish is the point.
If we can put a restriction on motorcycle licenses, we should be able to do the same with cars.
Like previously stated, a stupid ftard can get into just as much trouble with a 250cc than he can with a 600cc. Its not the capcity of the engine, its the rider. Its always the rider. Likewise with the whole "600cc is a good starting bike". Why is it not a good starting bike? because the rider lacks skill to control such power.
Why can rich uncle buy you a 400hp AMG mercedes with a fresh license? Theres no way you are telling me that a new driver can put all 400hp on the road and be safe.
My point is, you cant stop stupid people from being stupid, and it isn't right to stop me from buying whatever I want. I think what would be fare is graduated testing without restrictions. Perhaps someone knows how to ride a motobike and wants a 600cc since hes been riding supermoto as a kid, or dirt bikes. So he goes out and takes a 600cc I4 class test (Which should be divided by power to weight ratio) and if he passes he can put that bike on the street. I would be pissed of if i had to ride a 125cc for 2 years before i could go up. I think the real experince from riding is from miles youd gain much more from doing 15,000 miles in 1 year, then you would with 5,000 miles a year. If there was a way to log miles of a person that would be cool ,but it aint happening.
Quote from: He Man on October 20, 2008, 03:00:08 PM
I never said it (drivers license) wasn't a right. I think you're mistaken about what I was trying to say.
you have the RIGHT to buy whatever you wish is the point.
BUY whatever you want. You just can't ride it. ;)
In Australia, we have had this for years, but the rules have changed a little over the last few with power to weight coming in & different states have differing laws.. It used to be you could ride anything under and including a 250cc. Well some 250's are QUICK! Even some 125's are quick. And new riders over 30 can go to a full licence after doing the 2 day learner course and 1 day provisional course and pass an exam and riding test.
Now with the power to weight ruling, my 620 was learner approved and alot of other bikes are now and learners aren't restricted to scooters which are more dangerous than normal bikes IMO.
Quote from: Super T.I.B on October 20, 2008, 04:52:41 PM
BUY whatever you want. You just can't ride it. ;)
In Australia, we have had this for years, but the rules have changed a little over the last few with power to weight coming in & different states have differing laws.. It used to be you could ride anything under and including a 250cc. Well some 250's are QUICK! Even some 125's are quick. And new riders over 30 can go to a full licence after doing the 2 day learner course and 1 day provisional course and pass an exam and riding test.
Now with the power to weight ruling, my 620 was learner approved and alot of other bikes are now and learners aren't restricted to scooters which are more dangerous than normal bikes IMO.
this is what i was thinking as well. buy whatever floats your boat, but dont expect to ride it. dont expect the DMV to give you a license to kill right away.
maybe this would stop some dealers from selling 'busas to novice riders with more $$ than brains
Quote from: herm on October 20, 2008, 05:00:45 PM
this is what i was thinking as well. buy whatever floats your boat, but dont expect to ride it. dont expect the DMV to give you a license to kill right away.
maybe this would stop some dealers from selling 'busas to novice riders with more $$ than brains
That's the thing, that doesn't happen here. Well, to my knowledge. ???
If only we could get graduated automobile licenses. Base license gets you into a small sedan. More training can you into more powerful vehicles and specialized training for big trucks and SUV's. Business' reliant on specialized vehicles would get a number of vouchers to train employees.
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Quote from: Super T.I.B on October 20, 2008, 05:07:06 PM
That's the thing, that doesn't happen here. Well, to my knowledge. ???
many bike salesman remind me of the mortgage industry.
they will sell you the biggest one they can get you financed for
Wasnt there a story of a ude selling a busa to osomeone and he goes of to crash the bike? his friend comes to the dealer and yells at the dealer?
Quote from: superjohn on October 20, 2008, 06:31:46 PM
If only we could get graduated automobile licenses. Base license gets you into a small sedan. More training can you into more powerful vehicles and specialized training for big trucks and SUV's. Business' reliant on specialized vehicles would get a number of vouchers to train employees.
Thank you. This message brought you by "Appoint Superjohn Sec. of Transportation"
"I approve this message" - Superjohn
I'd just like to get some kind of general knowledge test to go with that. There are too many idiot mouthbreather cagers out there. I was in my car today (had to carry a lot of stuff) and almost got taken out by two different old men who pulled out right in front of me. One crossed a lane of traffic to cut me off as he turned right on red (into the wrong lane that had no obstructions in it). [bang]
Quote from: He Man on October 20, 2008, 03:00:08 PM
My point is, you cant stop stupid people from being stupid,
No, but starting on a starter bike, is, IMO, a part of proper rider education-I don't think it's a stupidity prevention.
Quote from: somebastid on October 20, 2008, 08:33:32 PM
No, but starting on a starter bike, is, IMO, a part of proper rider education-I don't think it's a stupidity prevention.
And you can still easily kill yourself on a starter bike. ;)
You still need edukashun.
Quote from: Super T.I.B on October 20, 2008, 08:37:10 PM
And you can still easily kill yourself on a starter bike. ;)
You still need edukashun.
Mebbe something more than 8 hours in a parking lot at 5 MPH. :P
Quote from: somebastid on October 20, 2008, 08:57:43 PM
Mebbe something more than 8 hours in a parking lot at 5 MPH. :P
Yep. Maybe have to do MSF or whatever you do over there before even getting a bike.
I know of people who have even tried doing the licencing courses over here, being all confident thinking they are Rossi, getting shit scared when they first try and ride a bike and leaving.
Come to think of it, there was someone on TOB who had a 620 and was selling it because he was scared of it. :-\ Can't remember his name. ???
Quote from: Super T.I.B on October 20, 2008, 09:25:20 PM
Come to think of it, there was someone on TOB who had a 620 and was selling it because he was scared of it. :-\ Can't remember his name. ???
Mebbe it was a cagiva one.
Graduated licenses for cars is a stupid idea, the biggest problem people have when driving cars is being inattentive, inconsiderate & lazy. It doesn't matter how much power they have, they're still going to be shitty drivers.
Graduated licenses for bikes is a good idea because bikes are inherently unstable. Learning to ride something with less power is a lot safer. Lighter, less powerful bikes make for a learning environment where a noob can concentrate on the important stuff like not being killed by the 16 y/o asshat in the $400 rust box car who's talking on their cell. Yes, you can still get messed up on a lower power bike but don't try to tell me that that's a valid reason for not having graduated licenses because it's total BS. We should have graduated license *AND* be required to take the MSF BRC. Yes, I would do it over again if I had to.
I understand the desire for equity here but it's just not really founded in reality. Bikes *are* more dangerous.
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 06:38:27 AM
Graduated licenses for cars is a stupid idea, the biggest problem people have when driving cars is being inattentive, inconsiderate & lazy. It doesn't matter how much power they have, they're still going to be shitty drivers.
Graduated licenses for bikes is a good idea because bikes are inherently unstable. Learning to ride something with less power is a lot safer. Lighter, less powerful bikes make for a learning environment where a noob can concentrate on the important stuff like not being killed by the 16 y/o asshat in the $400 rust box car who's talking on their cell. Yes, you can still get messed up on a lower power bike but don't try to tell me that that's a valid reason for not having graduated licenses because it's total BS. We should have graduated license *AND* be required to take the MSF BRC. Yes, I would do it over again if I had to.
I understand the desire for equity here but it's just not really founded in reality. Bikes *are* more dangerous.
+1
Says it all right there.
Today it's cc limits for new riders. Tomorrow it's flashing headlights, and orange safety vests. Then maybe a 'kick me' sign on the back of his safety vest?
I guess I am more in the camp of personal responsibility. If a dummy wants to buy a Ninja and loop it at 70mph when riding home from the dealership, then more power to him (no pun intended, but accepted just the same). I do like responsibility for the sake of the safety of innocent bystanders. But who is to say that same dummy wouldn't just buy a 125cc bike, and try and rev the engine, pop the clutch, and try and get the wheel up with lots of body english?
What about a young rider that has been riding and racing in the dirt for many years. He (or she) then turns 16 and is more than capable of handling the responsibility and skill necessary to ride a larger cc machine?
Government regulation = bad
Personal responsibility = good
Quote from: MTBryan on October 21, 2008, 08:41:33 AM
Today it's cc limits for new riders. Tomorrow it's flashing headlights, and orange safety vests. Then maybe a 'kick me' sign on the back of his safety vest?
I guess I am more in the camp of personal responsibility. If a dummy wants to buy a Ninja and loop it at 70mph when riding home from the dealership, then more power to him (no pun intended, but accepted just the same). I do like responsibility for the sake of the safety of innocent bystanders. But who is to say that same dummy wouldn't just buy a 125cc bike, and try and rev the engine, pop the clutch, and try and get the wheel up with lots of body english?
What about a young rider that has been riding and racing in the dirt for many years. He (or she) then turns 16 and is more than capable of handling the responsibility and skill necessary to ride a larger cc machine?
Government regulation = bad
Personal responsibility = good
+1
Evilsteve brings up many many good points. But it is just what MTBryan is saying. One day this, the next day that. The number one reason people get into shit is becasue they arent paying attention, and its easier to not pay attention in a car then riding a bike. I dont beleive in a graduated licencing system. Perhpas a CC licening system, similar to cars and weight. If you want to drive a truck you need to get a special license, if you wanna drive a big rig, you need to get that type of license.
Maybe you could get away with a sportbike class license, cruiser bike class license, and standard bikes. So if you pass it you can get whatever bike you wanna get. You could get the standard bike license and take the sportbike class (similar to Lee Parks ARC, or maybe a track day oriented at street skills, or something)in a few months when you are comfortable with your skill level.
That is no different from what I've been saying. Whether it's a particular class of motorcycle or a power/weight or CC based, they're all a different kind of graduated licensing system. Graduated in that case may not be the appropriate word of course but they all seek to obtain the same result. We're going to keep insufficiently trained people off bikes they can't handle. The dependency with a class based license is that the training & testing is sufficient and appropriate. Do we have any faith that the gub'ment would be able to achieve this? I don't. Power/weight based system is at least a little objective. How long you're on a smaller license could be controlled by passing tests or whatever and we're then dependent on DOT/NTSB people to come up with a viable system of course but that's where the MSF comes in. You're on a .5/1 (let's say) power to weight until you pass the MSF, then you can go to .75/1 and then pass the ARC or Lee Parks (or whatever) and you're open. There'd need to be weight limits otherwise just about every HD ever made would be in the learner category which of course is stupid. Of course, given that they're all limiting in some way, these same issues apply in all cases (class, power/weight, cc). I don't really mind which, anything is better than noobs on busas IMO.
As for personal responsibility, I completely agree. Personal responsibility is something that is sorely lacking and should be encouraged. I'm a skydiver, I know about personal responsibility. What most of the personal responsibility arguments neglect to mention however is that the affects of ineffective licensing flows on to everyone else in the form of insurance costs, ridiculous laws and an overall perception in the wider community that motorcyclists are basically crazy. This perception affects us all and just saying "personal responsibility" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface because so many people actively avoid personal responsibility and that affects us all. Many of these people would still attempt to avoid it but then it would become very easy to distinguish between those people and the people who are doing the right thing and getting appropriately licensed. Not to say that would be the end of it but inaction doesn't do anything for us either.
For the record, the AMA agrees, the status quo is the way as far as they're concerned.
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 10:00:10 AM
<snip>
As for personal responsibility, I completely agree. Personal responsibility is something that is sorely lacking and should be encouraged. I'm a skydiver, I know about personal responsibility. What most of the personal responsibility arguments neglect to mention however is that the affects of ineffective licensing flows on to everyone else in the form of insurance costs, ridiculous laws and an overall perception in the wider community that motorcyclists are basically crazy. This perception affects us all and just saying "personal responsibility" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface because so many people actively avoid personal responsibility and that affects us all. Many of these people would still attempt to avoid it but then it would become very easy to distinguish between those people and the people who are doing the right thing and getting appropriately licensed. Not to say that would be the end of it but inaction doesn't do anything for us either.
<snip>
Ding ding ding!!!
These idiots who don't take personal responsibility affect the rest of us, specifically with insurance costs and perception of the general public.
Steve, you hit the nail on the head.
Quote from: herm on October 20, 2008, 05:00:45 PM
this is what i was thinking as well. buy whatever floats your boat, but dont expect to ride it. dont expect the DMV to give you a license to kill right away.
maybe this would stop some dealers from selling 'busas to novice riders with more $$ than brains
Didn't you mean to say shit for brains ;D
Quote from: EvilSteve on October 21, 2008, 10:00:10 AM
That is no different from what I've been saying. Whether it's a particular class of motorcycle or a power/weight or CC based, they're all a different kind of graduated licensing system. Graduated in that case may not be the appropriate word of course but they all seek to obtain the same result. We're going to keep insufficiently trained people off bikes they can't handle. The dependency with a class based license is that the training & testing is sufficient and appropriate. Do we have any faith that the gub'ment would be able to achieve this? I don't. Power/weight based system is at least a little objective. How long you're on a smaller license could be controlled by passing tests or whatever and we're then dependent on DOT/NTSB people to come up with a viable system of course but that's where the MSF comes in. You're on a .5/1 (let's say) power to weight until you pass the MSF, then you can go to .75/1 and then pass the ARC or Lee Parks (or whatever) and you're open. There'd need to be weight limits otherwise just about every HD ever made would be in the learner category which of course is stupid. Of course, given that they're all limiting in some way, these same issues apply in all cases (class, power/weight, cc). I don't really mind which, anything is better than noobs on busas IMO.
As for personal responsibility, I completely agree. Personal responsibility is something that is sorely lacking and should be encouraged. I'm a skydiver, I know about personal responsibility. What most of the personal responsibility arguments neglect to mention however is that the affects of ineffective licensing flows on to everyone else in the form of insurance costs, ridiculous laws and an overall perception in the wider community that motorcyclists are basically crazy. This perception affects us all and just saying "personal responsibility" doesn't even begin to scratch the surface because so many people actively avoid personal responsibility and that affects us all. Many of these people would still attempt to avoid it but then it would become very easy to distinguish between those people and the people who are doing the right thing and getting appropriately licensed. Not to say that would be the end of it but inaction doesn't do anything for us either.
For the record, the AMA agrees, the status quo is the way as far as they're concerned.
Probably just my ADD Kicking in. That post makes sense to me. [thumbsup]
Personal repsonsibility is lacking in the US. It is why people try to sue mcdonalds for making them fat. It is why people sue a gun company because they produce a weapon that is designed to propel bullets. There are infintely more problems then there are solutions for the whole topic of "personal responsibility". Well the main solution is called insurance. and everyone pays for the cost of it.