Who here mounts there own tires? Do you just use spoons or is there something else I need? What about balancing? Most every bike I see has the weights by the valve stem so I'm wondering If a balance issue would be noticeable.
I mount my own with spoons on my 620. Wrapped a little tape around them to protect the black paint. Didn't worry about the balance, at the speed I travel it was no issue. Have also spooned them on my DRZ400SM. I assume from your log on you are a porschephile, my winter beater 951 turboS just came out of hypernation yesterday. Had been commuting every day since late april in my bikes but when it hit freezing that was below my limit. bill
If you can wait a little, ill be throwing up a video how to (first time video!) of how to do it.
Do note, ive never done it before. I just bought a new tire (Pilot Road 2ct), 3 tire irons, rim proctectors, and im gonna use the ghetto 2x4 technique to break the bead!
Hey CobraJet, yes I am a bit of a Porschephile. I am a Master tech in San Antonio. Welcome to the forum.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34542 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34542)
This inexpensive tool (with the motorcycle attachment) has been invaluable. I usually use it with the rim clamp and not the post, but it comes with a large bar that feeds under the bead. You lever under the bead, and spin it around the post while prying up. I can usually pop the tire off without even touching the rim. Also, it has a built in bead breaker at the base of the stand. Or if you like, just use the rim clamp to hold the wheel, and whip out the spoons.
I got pretty good changing slicks on my supermoto, and it works good with dirt bike tires too. Trust me, a whole lot eaiser than the 2x6 method.
Or if you have the bucks, I've always wanted on of these...http://www.nomartirechanger.com/ (http://www.nomartirechanger.com/)
I mounted and balanced my last set of Pirellis using a set of motion pro spoons and a homemade wheel holder/bead breaker.
I can’t find the website of the guy whose design I copied, but my setup consists of an old 14" car wheel mounted upside down with a 2' length of 5/8" all thread to a half sheet of 3/4" plywood. One end of the all thread is mounted to the plywood so that it passes through the center of the car wheel with enough left over that it will also pass through the axel of the motorcycle wheel as it’s placed on top of the old car wheel. (I used a length of automotive heater hose to wrap the edge of the car wheel to protect the motorcycle rim from scratches) After the MC wheel is placed on top of the car rim, bolt it down with the all thread using a small piece of wood as a washer between the 5/8ths nut and the MC wheel. I break the beads using a floor jack positioned between the plywood and the MC tire.
Rim protectors were made using some scraps of plastic I cut from an empty windshield washer bottle.
Quote from: Roscoe on October 24, 2008, 11:48:15 AM
Or if you have the bucks, I've always wanted on of these...http://www.nomartirechanger.com/ (http://www.nomartirechanger.com/)
I have one of those and it rules! [thumbsup]
I can put my bike on the rear stand, pull the wheel (don't have to loosen chain adjusters - Triumph 6750, unmount the tire, remount a new rear, put it all back together in 30 minutes.
I can do the front start to finish in 30 as well, and that's taking it easy and not rushing.
I don't bother balancing my wheels unless the bike feels like it's trying to self destruct at 100+
;D
Quote from: cobrajet on October 24, 2008, 08:34:10 AM
I mount my own with spoons on my 620. Wrapped a little tape around them to protect the black paint. Didn't worry about the balance, at the speed I travel it was no issue. Have also spooned them on my DRZ400SM. I assume from your log on you are a porschephile, my winter beater 951 turboS just came out of hypernation yesterday. Had been commuting every day since late april in my bikes but when it hit freezing that was below my limit. bill
Funny, lots of Porsche folks just happen to have Ducs. I don't have one at the moment, but I have had a Boxster and an 82 SC. Loved both.
Quote from: Monsterlover on October 27, 2008, 07:17:36 PM
I have one of those and it rules! [thumbsup]
I can put my bike on the rear stand, pull the wheel (don't have to loosen chain adjusters - Triumph 6750, unmount the tire, remount a new rear, put it all back together in 30 minutes.
I can do the front start to finish in 30 as well, and that's taking it easy and not rushing.
I don't bother balancing my wheels unless the bike feels like it's trying to self destruct at 100+
;D
I did the same thing on my S4R without a changer in 25 ;)
I would like a proper changer some day, but it's real easy to do with spoons.
I bought one of these, and in a few years it's paid for itself. I have two bikes, each of which go through a set of tires once per year, so to me it made sense. The local shop has about a 20-30% markup on tires, and they'll only mount 'em (for $50 I believe) if you buy them there. Cycle Gear will mount tires for $15, but you have to take the wheel(s) to the store.
I use NoMar's balancer as well.
The NoMar makes you popular with your riding buddies too. ;D
Quote from: Roscoe on October 24, 2008, 11:48:15 AM
Or if you have the bucks, I've always wanted on of these...http://www.nomartirechanger.com/ (http://www.nomartirechanger.com/)
Quote from: pompetta on October 28, 2008, 04:17:37 AM
I bought one of these, and in a few years it's paid for itself. I have two bikes, each of which go through a set of tires once per year, so to me it made sense. The local shop has about a 20-30% markup on tires, and they'll only mount 'em (for $50 I believe) if you buy them there. Cycle Gear will mount tires for $15, but you have to take the wheel(s) to the store.
I use NoMar's balancer as well.
The NoMar makes you popular with your riding buddies too. ;D
Yea, that lube that comes with it is awesome. :P
Works great with number 8 on your whiteboard [laugh]
I use spoons with a car rim as a base as well. For balancing, I have been using DynaBeads from Innovative Balancing for a couple of years. The tire stays balanced throughout it's entire life as it wears down. Smooth as glass when riding. I use 1lb 1oz in the front and 2lbs 2oz in the back. Easiest balancing ever, just dump the dynabeads in before mounting the tire bead.
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/motorcycle.htm (http://www.innovativebalancing.com/motorcycle.htm)
Quote from: Roscoe on October 24, 2008, 11:46:25 AM
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34542 (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=34542)
This inexpensive tool (with the motorcycle attachment) has been invaluable. I usually use it with the rim clamp and not the post, but it comes with a large bar that feeds under the bead. You lever under the bead, and spin it around the post while prying up. I can usually pop the tire off without even touching the rim. Also, it has a built in bead breaker at the base of the stand. Or if you like, just use the rim clamp to hold the wheel, and whip out the spoons.
I got pretty good changing slicks on my supermoto, and it works good with dirt bike tires too. Trust me, a whole lot eaiser than the 2x6 method.
I think I'm gonna try this for my new tires! Thanks for info and lead.
Question, what about balancer?
I dont bother balancing them. I just line up the painted dot, which is the lightest point of the tire, with the valve stem, and call it good. My speeds were never much above 80 or 90 on a fast track (supermoto) and I never noticed an imbalance. As far as my street tires, same applies. I'm pretty sane and don't usually exceed 80, even when "the man" isn't looking.
But if you want to balance them, look at the NoMar web site. they have a pretty nifty setup, or you can just buy the rod and cones that hold the wheel, and build your own stand out of simple materials. It's a pretty simple concept, support the wheel in a way that it can rotate freely, letting the heavy end drop to the bottom. Add small lead tape weights on the opposite end until its even.
Balancing is important and I can't believe anybody would put 1 to 2 lbs. additional weight on/in a wheel in order to balance it - unsprung wt.
If I mount at home I use spoons with plastic rim protectors. Cheap, but it is a pain in the ass. You can bend the disc carrier if not careful too. Rear, no prob. You can use a 22 gal. grease drum with a split heater hose installed on the rim to change fronts on. Disc fit down in the drum.
The Marc Parnes balancer. Very simple, cheap, and very accurate. http://www.marcparnes.com/Ducati_Motorcycle_Wheel_Balancer.htm
I use a bead breaker from JC Whitney.
(http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr273/1ajess/beadbreaker-1.jpg)
(http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr273/1ajess/parnsbalancer.jpg)
(http://i491.photobucket.com/albums/rr273/1ajess/parnsbalonstands.jpg)
LA
Quote from: LA on November 04, 2008, 10:08:41 AM
Balancing is important and I can't believe anybody would put 1 to 2 lbs. additional weight on/in a wheel in order to balance it - unsprung wt.
I believe he meant 1 ounce in the front wheel and two ounces in the rear.....not pounds.
I recently bought enough to do a couple sets of wheels to try them out. Everyone I know rants about how great they are and one guy recently did a trackday using them for balancing and said that he was hitting 150+ mph and it was smooth riding.
My wife's R1 has some other brand balancing beads in it (they already came inside a spare set of wheels), and I really haven't seen a difference in wear, tire life, nor vibration, but I'm interested in seeing how the Dynabeads work (or don't work) on a couple of bikes, especialy the 748. I haven't balanced the rear wheel on my 748 for the last five tires or so. I haven't noticed any weird vibrations up to an indicatied 145 mph and the tires all wore out in the same amount of miles as the ones that were balanced. I also figure that when a rear tire is toast in less than 3000 miles (my wife's last read Dunlop was on the wear bars in 1600 miles), I should probably be rebalancing after every weekend (600-1000 miles) because the tire wear has probably created an out of balance wheel.
Putting beads of anything inside the tyre to balance the wheel is complete nonsense and a waste of money.
Like LA, I've got a balance shaft from Marc Parnes - excellent bit of kit. Keep to convention with balance weights stuck on the rim and do it properly.
Quote from: Jethro on November 04, 2008, 11:34:28 AM
Putting beads of anything inside the tyre to balance the wheel is complete nonsense and a waste of money.
Like LA, I've got a balance shaft from Marc Parnes - excellent bit of kit. Keep to convention with balance weights stuck on the rim and do it properly.
That's the way I've always thought about it, but for $6 per set of wheels, I figured I'd try it out and see for myself before I start spewing out about how much nonsense it is. It actually does NOT make much sense to me, as I would think that the beads would concentrate in abnormal spots of the tires which are the furthest from the center of the wheel, and NOT necessarily concentrate on the actual lightest spot of the tire/wheel, but others claim this isn't the case. I'm curious and it's about the cost of an order of tacos at a Mexican restaurant. ;D
This is Dynabead's website... http://www.innovativebalancing.com/
I still have my doubts that it works, but I could be wrong....Hmmmm...I wonder if I stuck some in my drier if it would smooth out an unbalanced load. ;D
Modern tyres are so well made that they don't contribute very much to the out of balnce force - it's nearly all the cast wheel. What you can do, if you don't want to balance the wheel and tyre every time, is balance the wheel on it's own and then just fit tyres from then on.
I don't do this as I'm in no hurry and enjoy getting it as accurate as I can even if that's not completely necessary, but what's an extra 10 minutes?
Quote from: Jethro on November 04, 2008, 12:06:39 PM
What you can do, if you don't want to balance the wheel and tyre every time, is balance the wheel on it's own and then just fit tyres from then on.
Both rear wheels we have for the R1 are so grossly out of balance that the wheels with tires mounted were requiring 3-4 ounces of weights when static balancing. I found the heavy spot of each wheel without tire, which was NOT at the valve stem as most people suspect, and I mount the tire with the dot aligned with the heaviest spot of the rim. This cut the weight required down to 2 ounces. With the one wheel, I went so far as to check the balance of the wheel without the sprocket carrier and sprocket and then with the sprocket while rotating the carrier in every possible position to see if I could shave even more weight off when balancing....I went so far as to mark each cush drive so I could install them in the same order every time. The end result was that I wasted my time. [laugh]
As for tires being well balanced from the factory, from what I've seen and heard, Michelin is the only company that does not place weight dots on the sidewalls....they view it as showing the world that they have a faulty product. With all other brands, the balance of the tire must be fairly significant for them to be marking them. I have never run an experiment for mounting and remounting tires in different positions on the wheel to check balancing, but I tend to trust that those dots are there for a reason and not for cosmetics.....I think it would make for a cool experiment.
I also wonder how well balanced a tire is halfway through the tire's tread life. I don't recall anyone rebalancing a tire after it is initially done unless there is a vibration issue. I know a well-worn front tire on the front of the R1 was not the best balanced when I checked in an effort to solve a front-end vibration issue. If the balancing differs much during a tire's life and it is best to keep the assembly balanced, then everyone should be balancing tires every few hundred miles. I know this last set of tires on the R1 were toast (both of them) at 1700 miles, so I would suspect that they should have been rebalanced after every ride to keep them well balanced. :o
Whoops!! yes, I meant ounces.... not pounds!
The concept behind the beads is simple, but easy to get confused. Say your wheel is unbalanced. The center of mass is not where the axle is located. This would cause the wheel to *want* to rotate around an axis different from where the axle is (the center of mass axis). The wheel is kind of an eccentric wheel when it is unbalanced. Since it will want to rotate around this new axis, the beads will move towards the farthest point from the center of mass, thus offsetting the weight difference and balancing the wheel. It would be nice to see this actually happening in a *transparent* tire setup...
Quote from: carlosbarrios on November 05, 2008, 02:21:52 PM
The center of mass is not where the axle is located. This would cause the wheel to *want* to rotate around an axis different from where the axle is (the center of mass axis). The wheel is kind of an eccentric wheel when it is unbalanced. Since it will want to rotate around this new axis, the beads will move towards the farthest point from the center of mass, thus offsetting the weight difference and balancing the wheel.
What I look at, though, is that how do you know that the furthest point from the axle is actually the point in which the additional weight is needed? Why couldn't the weight be needed at a point that is closer to the axle? Some tires have a rib on the inside where it looks like the carcus is joined. One side could be higher than the other side of the rib, and with the ribbing, maybe the weight is needed on the opposite side of the wheel, but it cannot get there because it is stuck in a little pocket on the inside of the tire......I'm sure it is a possibility. Heck, also take into consideration the deflection and deformation of tires when under acceleration and braking. Watching a Top-Fuel dragster's rear tires increase nearly 100% in outer diameter on take off show this.
The other thing I look at, especailly at lower speeds, the wheel does not stay perfectly round. The part making contact with the road becomes a little flattened and becomes closer to the axle than other sections of tire, and the weight of the bike and rider and pressure in the tires can affect the amount of deformation at this contact area. Then, also figure that the deformation from the contact area will cause a bump, disrupt the beads (especailly at lower speeds), and then the beads will need to reposition themselves....and may not do it by the time it makes a revolution and they get disrupted again.
I wasn't the best in my dynamics class and anything dealing with certifical forces, so I could be completely off my rocker. I think I understand the principles, but don't really see them working the way they are supposed to....maybe I'm just thinking too much into them. I've had enough people who's opinions have always appeared to be pretty good, so I'm going to try some of these myself. I'm interested to see, and feel, if there may be any noticable differences.
My head hurts...
Quote from: Desmo Demon on November 05, 2008, 03:00:39 AM
I found the heavy spot of each wheel without tire, which was NOT at the valve stem as most people suspect, and I mount the tire with the dot aligned with the heaviest spot of the rim. This cut the weight required down to 2 ounces.
That is very good advice and it is what I've always found. 2oz is still a lot of weight though, I usually need 20g = 0.7oz. The point I was trying to make about just balancing the rim on its own and then fitting tyres from then on was directed at the guys who fit their own tyres but don't balance them although I agree it's not ideal. My experience of balancing wheels has always shown that most of the out-of-balance really is the rim. I know some guys who don't balance wheels say they don't feel any vibration but that doesn't mean it isn't there and the effect can be seen as uneven tyre wear so if they can get just the rim balanced once, they would have much better balance than not bothering.
You should only balance the wheel without the sprocket carrier so the wheel is rotating on its own bearings. The wheel bearings and sprocket carrier bearings are only correctly in-line when the wheel is clamped on the axle and this will not be the case when mounted on the balancer shaft.
I got charged an hour of shop time by the dealer to have front and rear changed out and balanced. That's hard to beat, people.
Quote from: tangueroHondo on November 09, 2008, 09:42:23 AM
I got charged an hour of shop time by the dealer to have front and rear changed out and balanced. That's hard to beat, people.
Yeah, that's not too bad.....I guess.....What's the shop rate? $50/hr? $75/hr? $95/hr?
After four tire changes, my Harbor Freight tire changer was paid for, so by tire #5 the tire change was
FREE and I didn't have to drive anywhere and waste my time and gas to have someone else change my tire (yet, alone
PAY them to do it). I also can move my tire changer into the living room and change tires while I watch TV.....not to mention I can change a tire on a Saturday evening when every other place is closed and I want to ride first-thing Sunday morning. ;D
I figure in the last year, I've saved at least $300 at $20 per wheel carried into the local dealer....not counting the time to drive there and back and the time I had to wait to let them do it......and let's not forget $4/gallon gas for most of the summer. I've even gotten a few free dinners and cases of beer for changing tires from some of my buddies. [thumbsup]
Well.....I can't really explain it, but my wife is tickled silly over the difference in her R1 with the installation of the Dynabeads....
Vicki's R1 developed a headshake back in May. It had gradually gotten worse over the months. Initially, we suspected that it was a front tire balancing issue, so I rebalanced the tire. It didn't make much of a difference. This headshake got so bad that she could take one hand off the bars, but would never attempt to take both off for fear of a tank slapper occuring. To compensate, she cranked the steering damper to be very, very firm, but the heashake was still there. I rebalanced the first tire once. Then we went through two more tires, even used her spare front rim, and static balanced each tire a couple of times. Rebalancing made the headshake a little better each time, but not good enough to feel good about riding the bike. The R1 is her favorite bike to ride, but the headshake, especially when leaned over in a curve, was not only physically and mentally draining, but was quite unsafe. I had finally decided that the problem was with the steering stem bearings, and I was thinking about replacing them this winter. Anyway, I installed the Dynabeads on Friday and we went riding Saturday.....
We were heading up toward the mountains and going through a small town about 5 miles from the house when Vicki realized something was wrong with her bike. She couldn't figure it out, but it finally dawned on her that the R1 was too smooth....yes, TOO SMOOTH. Then she remembered about the Dynabeads and took her left hand off the bar.....the bars were true and weren't pulsing. She then risked it and took her other hand off the bars....the bike rode smooth and straight. For the next five miles, she'd speed up, slow down, and any combination of anything she could think of to try taking her hands off the bars to check for stability.....the bike rode as smooth and straight as can be.
Over the next two days, she'd ridden over 500 miles and ridden on roads with tight twisties, wide sweepers, and everything in between. She's even gone 130+ mph and the bike handles as steady as a rock. She's glad to have the R1 that she originally bought. She's tickled and happy as can be. The bike tracked and rode as smooth as she remembered it should. Riding on some of these roads was pleasant and very ejoyable for her, again....and her speeds were faster than they'd been all summer....
That's her testimony, but I still find it a little difficult to believe.
DD, did you put the dynabeads in along with mounting a new tire, or just put the dynabeads in?
Quote from: Desmo Demon on November 12, 2008, 08:17:48 AM
Yeah, that's not too bad.....I guess.....What's the shop rate? $50/hr? $75/hr? $95/hr?
After four tire changes, my Harbor Freight tire changer was paid for, so by tire #5 the tire change was FREE and I didn't have to drive anywhere and waste my time and gas to have someone else change my tire (yet, alone PAY them to do it). I also can move my tire changer into the living room and change tires while I watch TV.....not to mention I can change a tire on a Saturday evening when every other place is closed and I want to ride first-thing Sunday morning. ;D
I figure in the last year, I've saved at least $300 at $20 per wheel carried into the local dealer....not counting the time to drive there and back and the time I had to wait to let them do it......and let's not forget $4/gallon gas for most of the summer. I've even gotten a few free dinners and cases of beer for changing tires from some of my buddies. [thumbsup]
Wow, the HarborFreight changer is exactly what I've been looking for. There's another version of this (NoMar) but it's over $600!
Does this tire changer have to be bolted down to use it?
Also, I can picture how it helps get the old tire off, but does it also assist in putting on the new tire?
Quote
Yeah, that's not too bad.....I guess.....What's the shop rate? $50/hr? $75/hr? $95/hr?
After four tire changes, my Harbor Freight tire changer was paid for, so by tire #5 the tire change was FREE and I didn't have to drive anywhere and waste my time and gas to have someone else change my tire (yet, alone PAY them to do it). I also can move my tire changer into the living room and change tires while I watch TV.....not to mention I can change a tire on a Saturday evening when every other place is closed and I want to ride first-thing Sunday morning. ;D
I figure in the last year, I've saved at least $300 at $20 per wheel carried into the local dealer....not counting the time to drive there and back and the time I had to wait to let them do it......and let's not forget $4/gallon gas for most of the summer. I've even gotten a few free dinners and cases of beer for changing tires from some of my buddies. [thumbsup]
Seattle Ducati - $85/hr. It was in for a modified 6k service.
Holy cow!! If you're changing tires in front of the TV and (if my math is right..) doing 15 changes per year, you are a COMPLETELY different rider than I am. A bunch of avid riders like you should get together, rent some warehouse space and buy some big tools, communally. You'd prob all save a fortune at the rate you're servicing your rides.
I have a No-Mar setup and it's paid for itself in the first year. I ran different rubber on the track than on the street, so that meant 4 tire changes for every track day I did that year (about 3 per year is my normal schedule)
Quote from: Speeddog on November 12, 2008, 09:15:12 AM
DD, did you put the dynabeads in along with mounting a new tire, or just put the dynabeads in?
Just the dynabeads. I removed all previous balancing weights and dropped the Dynabeads in. Since the tires were alreayd mounted, I tried to install them through the valve stem, but it was such a PITA that I broke one of the tire beads loose from the rim, used a tire iron to pull the tire form the rim, and used a funnel to pour the Dynabeads into the wheel.
Quote from: bonnucati on November 12, 2008, 11:25:02 AMDoes this tire changer have to be bolted down to use it?
Also, I can picture how it helps get the old tire off, but does it also assist in putting on the new tire?
The HF would work easier if it was bolted down, but I usually get my wife to help me hold it when we are using it (usually in the living room). The HF makes removing the tire a breeze, and the only issue that we may have is getting the last 8"-14" of the second bead of the new tire to go over the lip of the rim. This probably would not be a problem if I had the unit mounted somewhere. For the last stubborn few inches, I just flip the bead over with a couple of tire irons.
My next purchase will be the No-Mar unit becuase it is more refined, a better product, and is much less likely to scratch your wheels. Most people with the HF changer spend the extra $100 for the No-Mar bar or the Mojo bar.
Quote from: tangueroHondo on November 12, 2008, 02:39:15 PM
Holy cow!! If you're changing tires in front of the TV and (if my math is right..) doing 15 changes per year, you are a COMPLETELY different rider than I am. A bunch of avid riders like you should get together, rent some warehouse space and buy some big tools, communally. You'd prob all save a fortune at the rate you're servicing your rides.
In 2006, my wife and I went through 14 tires.....18 tires in 2007, and I don't have a tally for 2008, yet, but we've gone through 7 on the R1, at least 4 on the ST2, and at least two with the 748......I think only one on the GSXR, though.....I'll probably toast another one on the ST2 and the wife will probably kill at least one more with the R1 by the end of the year.
As for tools.....I used to work for Cooper Industries, manufacturers of brands such as Crescent, Xcelite, Plumb, Wiss, Micholson, HK Porter, and many other hand tools. I've got two tool boxes slammed full, and some of the tools I haven't ever used. I've also pretty much done all my own maintenace on my vehicles since I was a teenager......some 20+ years ago, so I've bought a few specialty tools along the way, also. I believe this year, I've changed out at least six tires for friends, installed a Pingel electric shifter, and some other things that have escaped my mind. I have no problems helping out my riding buddies and "payments" of pizza and beer is always appreciated. I normally don't like working on other people's bikes because of the liability, but I did assist a friend of mine, last year, do the valves on both of his 998 motorcycles and I let him use my shim kit for the replacement shims. In return, he gave me the fork assembly, wheels, brakes, full-floating rotors, and a few other things from an old '94 Ducati SS900 that he used to have.
I spent almost two years getting a non-running '87 Paso 750 back on the road, again.... http://www.desmodemon.com/vicks_paso.html
For the things I cannot do, I have a pretty good network of friends. My best friend is a mechanical engineer and owns a metal supply company, another friend is a terrific welder, another does plasma cutting/sand-casting/small machining work, and I also know a pretty good fabricator in the area. ;)