I did my valve check at 6k, and everything measured fine. I also checked the guides for any valve stem play. Seems just fine. I read where some of these had early failures of the guides. Can I assume I'll be ok in the future? If I did get a defective guide(s), would it usually show up around 6k mile service?
05 S2R800
Most of the valve guide issues were on the DS1000 motors.
They usually show up by the 6k, from what I've seen.
YMMV.
+1 to speeddog.
They were mostly related to DS1000 engines. Whats different about them from other engines im not so sure i know you need a different sized shim for the DS1000 motors, so that design difference might have something to do with it.
Eitherway, most problems show up pretty early since they werent made correctly. I had mine fairly worn by 6000 miles, and had them replaced at 8000 miles per warranty. i am at 9100 right now, and there hasnt been a leak in that general area yet. If your valve guides do go, you'll begin to notice oil leaks around that area.
This is a side question, but does anyone know if it is possible to get ducati to warranty the damage to the paint caused by the oil leaks, that were caused by the damaged valve guides?
'05 S2R 800 has 8mm valve stems, like all of the '06 and earlier non-DS 2-valvers.
All '07 and onward 2-valvers have 7mm stems.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 27, 2008, 02:42:06 PM
'05 S2R 800 has 8mm valve stems, like all of the '06 and earlier non-DS 2-valvers.
All '07 and onward 2-valvers have 7mm stems.
So the 7mm stems are the ones that are more prone?
Quote from: woppini on October 27, 2008, 06:04:33 PM
So the 7mm stems are the ones that are more prone?
Seems that way, but again the valve guide issues have been on DS1000 motors, at least from what I've seen.
SO I took my S2R1K in for a 6k service (warranty is up any day now), and the dealer said they were gonna do the guides under warranty. Incidental neither I or my dad (original owner) noticed anything wrong, I took her in for regular service, but made sure to do it under warranty just in case.
My question is this... assuming there were no warranty issues I was prepared to pay for the 6k service as normal. But seeing as there is a warranty issue to be taken care of... do you think I'll still have to pay the whole 6k service price? Won't some of the otherwise normal 6k work be covered under the guide replacement?
All of the valve clearance adjustment has to be done *after* the guide replacement, so IMO you shouldn't have to pay for that portion of it.
But YMMV.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 11, 2008, 01:47:10 PM
All of the valve clearance adjustment has to be done *after* the guide replacement, so IMO you shouldn't have to pay for that portion of it.
But YMMV.
+1 you should not need to pay for the valve adjustment since it must be done anyway (after the guide replacement)
Cool, that's kinda what I was thinking... Thanks guys [thumbsup]
Did any of the bikes use oil and have smoke out of the exhaust when the guides were crook?? And was there any clatter from the head??
I'm getting paranoid now!! I've got 34,000k up now and the tappet settings havent changed in the last 3 services so I'm hoping all is well. :) [beer]
Quote from: dragonworld on November 15, 2008, 03:39:40 PM
Did any of the bikes use oil and have smoke out of the exhaust when the guides were crook?? And was there any clatter from the head??
I'm getting paranoid now!! I've got 34,000k up now and the tappet settings havent changed in the last 3 services so I'm hoping all is well. :) [beer]
I didnt have smoke out of the exahust, and as far as using oil goes..... i dont think i burned much oil, i any, but there was a nasty oil leak that pretty much fouled up the paint job on my heads. It streaked from the top of the cylinder down to the side cases.
I had my guides replaced @ 11,000 miles & while it took a month, they changed the belts & did the 12K service @ no cost...... I didn't even pay for the parts like plugs, oil, filter, belts........ they also replaced the stepper motor.
That was the good news........ the bad news was the tech rushed the assembly & I ended up with a loose oil seal...bike smoked like my old 2 stoke Suzuki PE 250.... Upon pickup I asked about the smoke & the tech replied it was running rich & not to worry....... 100 miles later I took it to another dealer who honored the warranty & found the front cyl oil seal as well as the valve clearences off on both intake & exhust on both cyls :o It was fixed free of charge but I was another 4 days without my bike.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 11, 2008, 01:47:10 PM
All of the valve clearance adjustment has to be done *after* the guide replacement, so IMO you shouldn't have to pay for that portion of it.
But YMMV.
Quote from: He Man on November 11, 2008, 02:32:54 PM
+1 you should not need to pay for the valve adjustment since it must be done anyway (after the guide replacement)
Well that's not what the dealer/Ducati think... They are charging me for the entire 6k service... Or trying to. Just had it out with them, and one of the guys thinks that I should be happy cause the price is only $19 more than the original estimate for the 6K...
Who should I call at Ducati to tell them I'm less than pleased with how they "honor" warranty work???
Update: So after talking to Ducati NA... they basically said I'm S.O.L.
What I've learned from this experience: When facing possible warranty issues, weather you notice symptoms or not, always tell the dealer you are there to get the warranty issue checked out "I think there may be a problem with the valve guides (in my case) could you check it out?"... (say nothing about it being serviced)... then if they don't find anything, and only if they don't find anything, you can tell 'em, go ahead and do a Xk service while your in there... YMMV
Big Strike for Ducati in my book after this one... will definitely influence any future purchase decisions for me! Booo!
The shop wants to charge you for the 6k not ducati.
Just tell them to not do the 6k and get the warranty done. Warranty is warranty. They cannot charge you for the valve adjustment since it must be done in conjunction with the valve guide replacement.
I hope you didnt just say okay.
Again, if ducati says okay to the warranty work. then simply tell them you do not want the 6k done. The big part of the 6k has already been done for you, and you can just change the fluids at home, and do a bolt check on your own.
He Man,
The work is already done... That's the point. Ducati says that since I asked for the 6k service first, then they only pay for the "extra" that it cost to do the guides... But if I hadn't asked for the 6k first, and only took it in for possibly worn guides, they would have covered the whole cost.
I'm gonna chalk this one up to an expensive lesson, that being honest and forthright costs money! I should have just lied! That's the conclusion I've come to with regards to Ducati. I am very dissapointed. How hard would it have been for Ducati to say... "well since we had to replace the guides under warranty, and assembly/adjustment of the valves is compulsory, we'll cover that portion of your 6k..." That's how I treat my customers (albeit in totally different industries/context), and that's how I expect to be treated as a customer...
Lesson learned... I've got many more years of motorcycle purchasing before I'm gone... It's their loss...
Quote from: SDR_John on November 22, 2008, 10:09:27 PM
He Man,
The work is already done... That's the point. Ducati says that since I asked for the 6k service first, then they only pay for the "extra" that it cost to do the guides... But if I hadn't asked for the 6k first, and only took it in for possibly worn guides, they would have covered the whole cost.
I'm gonna chalk this one up to an expensive lesson, that being honest and forthright costs money! I should have just lied! That's the conclusion I've come to with regards to Ducati. I am very dissapointed. How hard would it have been for Ducati to say... "well since we had to replace the guides under warranty, and assembly/adjustment of the valves is compulsory, we'll cover that portion of your 6k..." That's how I treat my customers (albeit in totally different industries/context), and that's how I expect to be treated as a customer...
Lesson learned... I've got many more years of motorcycle purchasing before I'm gone... It's their loss...
Sorry, but I have to side with Ducati on this one. From what I gather you brought it in for the 6k service, and during that service the dealer discovered that the guides were worn and replaced them at no added cost to you. If it were me, I would at least be grateful that the attentive dealer identified the worn guides before any symptoms emerged. Looks to me like Ducati satisfied their obligations, and I don't see where you should be entitled to a discount on your requested 6k service. It would be a different matter if you had prior running issues or complaints potentially related to the worn guides, or if there was a general recall of some sort, but that is not the case here.
BK
I dont agree with you BK.Worn Valve guides seldomly cause real issues. It will be make your bike run worst or any differently (noticeably atleast). As per the "general recall" it is a known problem and a common problem that is often covered under warranty without issue.
Yes you did bring it in for the 6k and through the process of the 6k the valve guides were found to be defective. Ducati covered the costs of replacing the valve guides. The valve guide job itself requires the shims to be readjusted for the new guides. It is part of the job no matter how you look at it.
I would agree that the dealer is entitled to charge you labor for the finding of the worn guides, which should of been noticed within 1 hour (preparing bike for valve adjustment and while checking adjustment).
Now, my personal point of view? you still got a few thousand dollars worth of work done, and you really didnt lose out on anything. You went in for a 6k, and you came out with a 6k + new guides. It would of been nice if you told the dealer hey, can you get ducati to cover the costs of the valve ajustment? because i rather much spend the money on you guys toward something more useful, like prepay my 12k service, or some new gear etc. (do note that most of their money comes from servicing bikes...) Either way, you still came out better than you did before without any damage.
Personally, i had a non certified shop do my valves that were terribly out of spec. 30 mins in, they said, uhhh your valve guides are beyond busted. I said, sweet, can you close it up and instead of the valve job, ill pay you guys to racetech spring/valve/adjust my forks? they said sure. BAM. Called up dealer said, hey guides are f**ed up. Can you warranty them? shop said yes. I brought it in. Got it all done for free though it was a 7 week struggle to get my bike back after they quoted me 2 weeks time.
Quote from: He Man on November 23, 2008, 01:49:20 AM
Now, my personal point of view? you still got a few thousand dollars worth of work done, and you really didnt lose out on anything. You went in for a 6k, and you came out with a 6k + new guides. It would of been nice if you told the dealer hey, can you get ducati to cover the costs of the valve ajustment? because i rather much spend the money on you guys toward something more useful, like prepay my 12k service, or some new gear etc. (do note that most of their money comes from servicing bikes...) Either way, you still came out better than you did before without any damage.
I don't disagree with you about not loosing anything in the deal... It isn't so much a $$$ issue as a Good-PR thing. I agree that the dealer should have gone to bat for me with Ducati, and they say they have come up against similar situations in the past, and I beleive them, but Ducati shoots them down. I'm all for supporting my local dealer, I even bought my new helmet there last month when I could have gone online or to the super huge discount-o-rama store and gotten it cheaper. I put my money where my mouth is, and I guess I just expect that Ducati would go the extra mile to take care of it's customers. I think the dealer is caught between a rock and a hard place on this one, and aside from one individual there (the one who doesn't see the bigger picture and thinks I should be happy I'm only paying $19 more than quoted), I have no ill will towards them.
Quote from: He Man on November 23, 2008, 01:49:20 AM
Personally, i had a non certified shop do my valves that were terribly out of spec. 30 mins in, they said, uhhh your valve guides are beyond busted. I said, sweet, can you close it up and instead of the valve job, ill pay you guys to racetech spring/valve/adjust my forks? they said sure. BAM. Called up dealer said, hey guides are f**ed up. Can you warranty them? shop said yes. I brought it in. Got it all done for free though it was a 7 week struggle to get my bike back after they quoted me 2 weeks time.
This, He Man, is a perfect example of "playing the game/working the Ducati system" that I now realize I'll have to play in the future... and I think that's a sad testament to Ducati.
I think the shop is the one to point the finger @, not Ducati. I'm sure they checked the guides BEFORE they checked any clearences or did anything else. At best, I see them charging you for oil & filter but IMHO Ducati should cover that due to the fact your bike will be down for at least two weeks.
Why is it so hard to find a competent, honest tech @ a dealer ??? I know with the S2R1K issues with the stalling, surging & bad guides & the lack of concern on most dealers parts has soured many on the brand....... I don't blame them either.
Too bad for you John & I hope you didn't purchase an extended waranty ;D
I have seen this go both ways a lot falls on what the dealer is willing to do. I have seen dealers reduce a service by what warranty pays as well as a dealer that charged both ducati and the customer for the same work.
If it is done , just keep that in mind next time you need work .
The tech may have nothing to do with what you are being charged, I used to see bills after i submitted them and they were some times higher than what I turned in. :o
The ds1000 motors are far from the only ones that need guides, I changed a set of melted 695 heads and the guides were shot in them as well I have also changed plenty of guides in 620,750,800,900,748,916 motors. Guides are a wear item and ducati is not the only one that needs them. Difference is on that Japanese bike you are not going to even be close enough to check them until somewhere around 20,000 miles when the valves are first checked.
I have run a 750 motor of my own with bad guides for a full season of hard street and track miles, the bike always ripped off good ( for a 2v 750) power and used a little oil. For a motor you want all the power or you are having running issues at lower rpms changing guides are worth the effort.
I wanted more power (didn't see any) and I am a mechanic so I changed mine, I never saw low rpms so driveability below 4000rpm did not matter.