These are the 2 bikes I am currently considering at the moment. Both have positives and negatives for me, and before anyone says anything, I understand that I'm asking on a Ducati board. I'll ask the same question on a Buell Forum (if i can find a decent one). Please keep in mind that I care much more about roll-on acceleration than about top-speed.
Buell XB12R
I like that it has a very little maintenance and no chain to clean. (i.e. comparably cheap and care-free)
I like that it gets great gas mileage.
I like the styling.
I don't like the cheap looking gauges and controls.
I don't like the rumor that it runs out of revs too quickly to be fun and that it doesn't have a 6th gear.
S2R 1000
I like how every time I sit on one, it feels right to me. Maybe cause Im used to the seating position.
I like the feeling of quality from the cockpit.
I like the depth of aftermarket options available.
I like how the motor has gotten rave reviews in every test I've read.
I don't like the probability of high maintenance costs
I hate the look of the udder on the stock exhaust, meaning I'd have to buy a midpipe.
I don't like the possibilty that I will have surge issues unless I buy a new exhaust and ecu.
So what do you think? I will mostly use the bike intown, but I'll also be using it to cut through traffic on the parking lots they call freeway. I think that one of my major stumbling blocks is that the monster looks like it can get real expensive real quick, while the buell appears a lot more practical, but with an inferior motor. I can't think anymore, help me out. Sorry for the long post.
How about a 1125 R ?
I've looked and sat on the 1125, and it's just too ugly and expensive for me. I probably wouldn't think twice if I didn't care about what my bike looked like. The motor is supposed to be great and there's so much fairing to tuck behind. Still, it's pretty ugly, and i don't want to take the time to stare at it till it starts to grow on me.
Plus, the fact that they went with a rotax engine makes me wonder about the xb12r. Is it Buell's way of saying they messed up with the harley engine? In a way it's kinda like advertising for Aprilia because they can say that they've been using that manufacturer for years.
Are you dead set on getting a new bike? If not, why not consider the S2R800? I have one that I use as my commuter and I think it is pretty much the ideal bike for that use. It has the same ergos as the 1K and while it does not have quite as nice suspension or brakes, it does have a few things going for it that in my mind make it a better commuter bike. For one, as much as I love the sound of the dry clutch, I think it would get a bit tiring in stop and go traffic. The 800's wet clutch is feathery and very easy to use when stuck in traffic. Also, pretty much none of the 800s have the issues (popping/stalling) that the 1Ks have because the majority of them never went to the closed emissions system. Take mine for example, it is an '07 (bought in July of) and even though the bike itself says that is is E3 compliant, it came without O2 sensors and all of the woes that seem to plague the bigger bikes. Plus, mine gets flippin great milage. ;)
It's funny that you mention the 800 because that's the one I first had my heart set on when I started to like the monster. I would gladly get one over the 1000 since it would suit me just fine and be cheaper, but i don't want to used bike. My last one gave way too much trouble. If there are any dealer leftover 07's around when I'm ready to buy, I'll jump on it, but I'm not holding my breath.
Has maintenance been alot for your 800? They should be about the same for the 1000 since they're both 2 valve right?
Pretty much, yea. And one nice thing about these is that they are so simple. Do the fluid changes yourself and save a fair amount of dosh. The only thing you might need to take the bike in for is valve servicing, if that.
The Firebolt will have a few more HP and Torque than the S2R1000. The firebolt is closer to S4R numbers.
Firebolt 103 peak hp, 84 ft. lbs.
S2R1000 95 hp (69.4 lb-ft
S2R800 76 HP 53.5 ft.lbs
Which bike are you coming off of right now out of curiosity?
I'm coming from a ninja 250 right now, and I know that either will be a huge improvement. From what I've read though, the Buell's numbers preform differently when not on paper. There's supposed to be loads of torque down low, and will beat a 600 to about 100mph, but then it'll get blown away. At the same time though, I don't know how an S4R will preform against a 600...
I obviously don't care about racing my friends to 100mph, but I have heard that the buell has so much torque that it can be "abrupt". I wouldn't mind the buell, but what's really bugging me is the really short rev range. Whenever i watch a clip of one accelerating on youtube, I always hear them shift annoyingly early. Could that be considered a problem for the monster too. If I'm getting a bike with a sweet sounding motor, I want to be able to enjoy the music [moto]
You can run the two valve monsters up to 9K easy.
When I was looking for a second bike coming off of a 03 620 I was thinking of getting a buell.
One of the reasons was they have a short rider friendly 12scg which is a very comfy bike to sit on.
I also really liked the sound and feel of the buells. I was ready to pull the trigger and I found a barely used 05 S4R I fell in love with.
So my second bike turned into replacing my smaller monster.
Things that I have learned specially for splitting traffic like you speak of is the smaller the monster the better. The larger Monsters can a pain in heavy traffic for clutch pull and gearing even if you go with a 14t.
My recommendation would be a S2R800 or the new 696 if you like the redesign look. 2.5 to 3 times the bike you have right now in regards to HP and Torque and will be easier to use in traffic than its bigger brother.
I went through the same decision last year, I was looking at an XB12Ss or my s2r1k. The Harley dealer really didn’t want to work (msrp on ’07 models) with me and the salesman really didn’t know the products the few times I went in there.
When I went to the Ducati dealership the sales people were great, gave me a great price, $1100 off of msrp (on an ’07 in march of ’07). at the time the two bike had the same MSRP of 10,495 I was otd with a new jacket and helmet for ~10. I also got to peel back the cardboard on the shipping crate to inspect my bike before signing on the line… damn that was a good feeling.
so obviously i went with the duc ;D
different ducati, same engine, don't know about gearing though.
QuotePERFORMANCE NUMBERS
Quarter-Mile
Buell XB12R: 11.43 sec. @ 117.5 mph
Ducati SS1000 DS: 11.40 sec. @ 120.5 mph
Roll-ons, 60-80 mph
Buell XB12R: 3.98 sec.
Ducati SS1000 DS: 4.01 sec.
Roll-ons, 80-100 mph
Buell XB12R: 4.45 sec.
Ducati SS1000 DS: 4.71 sec
http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_0312_buell_xb12r_ducati_ss1000/index.html
Quote from: LastSon on May 12, 2008, 10:25:58 PM
These are the 2 bikes I am currently considering at the moment. Both have positives and negatives for me, and before anyone says anything, I understand that I'm asking on a Ducati board. I'll ask the same question on a Buell Forum (if i can find a decent one). Please keep in mind that I care much more about roll-on acceleration than about top-speed.
Buell XB12R
I like that it has a very little maintenance and no chain to clean. (i.e. comparably cheap and care-free)
I like that it gets great gas mileage.
I like the styling.
I don't like the cheap looking gauges and controls.
I don't like the rumor that it runs out of revs too quickly to be fun and that it doesn't have a 6th gear.
S2R 1000
I like how every time I sit on one, it feels right to me. Maybe cause Im used to the seating position.
I like the feeling of quality from the cockpit.
I like the depth of aftermarket options available.
I like how the motor has gotten rave reviews in every test I've read.
I don't like the probability of high maintenance costs
I hate the look of the udder on the stock exhaust, meaning I'd have to buy a midpipe.
I don't like the possibilty that I will have surge issues unless I buy a new exhaust and ecu.
So what do you think? I will mostly use the bike intown, but I'll also be using it to cut through traffic on the parking lots they call freeway. I think that one of my major stumbling blocks is that the monster looks like it can get real expensive real quick, while the buell appears a lot more practical, but with an inferior motor. I can't think anymore, help me out. Sorry for the long post.
About two years ago I was in your exact position- I looked at both the Firebolt ( I still dig 'em) and the monster S2R both 800 and 1K.Then I looked at the abundance of aftermarket parts for each, and the support network- Dealers, ind. mechanics and web community for information. Swinging a leg over the S2r..........and that clanging in my ears...... SOLD!
Quote from: aaronb on May 13, 2008, 06:19:39 AM
I went through the same decision last year, I was looking at an XB12Ss or my s2r1k. The Harley dealer really didn’t want to work (msrp on ’07 models) with me and the salesman really didn’t know the products the few times I went in there.
When I went to the Ducati dealership the sales people were great, gave me a great price, $1100 off of msrp (on an ’07 in march of ’07). at the time the two bike had the same MSRP of 10,495 I was otd with a new jacket and helmet for ~10. I also got to peel back the cardboard on the shipping crate to inspect my bike before signing on the line… damn that was a good feeling.
so obviously i went with the duc ;D
Sounds like A great dealer! ! ! [thumbsup]
Care to give them props?
It was Corse Superbikes in Saukville WI. [thumbsup]
Quote from: SSSA on May 13, 2008, 08:28:56 AM
Sounds like A great dealer! ! ! [thumbsup]
Care to give them props?
I looked in both Beverly Hills Ducati and Socal Ducati in brea (close to home)
I bought from SoCal Ducati. Very pleasant experience buying.
My service dollars go to FLIGHTCYCLES...... 'NUFF SAID
I would go for the manster myself, but of course I am partial to them. If you can afford it go new; always less of a headache in my opinion. I had a new 620 with not one problem in a year and half of daily riding. Then i sild it to a buddy and bought a used S4. Did my research real well before I bought it too. Unfortunatly I am working on it at the molement and its certainly not the first time I have had to pull wrenches on it. SO new is good, Monsters are good, but do what feels right for you.
Heath
I wouldn't even factor in the "timed roll ons" "quarter mile time" etc... I find it amusing how some of the people I ride with are always saying how their bikes are the fastest, bla bla bla... They sound sophmoric at best, having the skill levels of sacks of mud it doesn't make any difference and even extremely skilled riders have fun and enjoy 600's or (name any slow bike of your choice). IF you compare an 11 sec. quarter mile bike to a 10 sec. quarter mile bike, I would say they are both fast enough to enjoy the hell out of.
Your best bet is to stand back and ask yourself what your really looking for. I tried to save some money and bought an inexpensive japanese bike that was a great reliable bike but it left me yearning for something. I sold it a year and a half later and bought the S2R 1000. It was a costly mistake that I won't make again.
I enjoy owning a bike that stands out. Only you can answer your question.
Quote from: Augustus on May 13, 2008, 07:42:04 PM
Your best bet is to stand back and ask yourself what your really looking for.
Base the purchasing decision on this and you will never go wrong. Buy the bike that speaks to you; you will know which one it is when it happens.
I had the good fortune to work for a Harley/Buell dealer for a couple of years and had lots of Buell experience, both on the road and on the track, and here' s my take: The Firebolt (and Lightning for that matter) is a really fun bike that handles like a cat and makes tons of power, just don't expect it to rev to the moon. it doesn't, and it doesn't need to. It'll make 103 hp and sign off by 7,000 rpm. All its torque and hp are right at the crack of the throttle, and you can wheelie it at will. Expect the front end to get light out of any slow/medium corner in fact. The ZTL front brake works very well too. Reliability? Like an anvil. Hydraulic lifters, air cooled, simple as a pet rock. Flog it, change oil, flog it some more. Other than crash damage, I seldom had to sell anything but service parts for the Buells. So what's the bad stuff? Well some of us do like to have more revs to play with, and it definitely doesn't rev. But still, 103 hp is quite a bit to work with. The only super negative I ever found with the Buells was extreme heat coming off the rear cylinder. And I'm talking bbq hot! While not as bad as the Ulysses, the Firebolt and Lightning are both guilty of cooking their riders. Ergos? Sit on one, ride one, figure out for yourself whether you fit on one. Some people don't like the feeling of being way over the front wheel. Buells are very short feeling, and do have short wheelbases. In fact their geometry makes no sense, and yet they work. They should be as twitchy as a trials bike at 100mph, yet they aren't. Go figure.
The Buell vs. the Monster? Well here you're going to find we're (mostly) all biased Monster freaks so we'll sing the praises of our beloved beasts. I'm no different either 'cause I love mine. After a four-year Monster hiatus, I came back swinging and bought the S4RS Tricolore and absolutely love it. Iconic styling, great ergos, fantastic handling, superlative brakes and a motor that just won't quit. Of course that's the new 4v Testastretta motor so it doesn't really compare to the S2R or the Buell. But I've also got a Multistrada with the 1000DS motor, which I absolutely love. The Buell probably has more low-end grunt, but the DS motor out revs it, out pulls it, and keeps going when the Buell has signed off. I find the 2v Ducati engine to be just a bit more flexible for all-around use, and it's still as reliable as an anvil. While it won't be as nearly maintenance free as the Buell, it ain't far off. Change the oil and do your basic services (which are now at extended intervals from the earlier bikes) and you shouldn't have a bit of trouble putting incredible mileage on one. Best thing of all? While Harley dealers all over the country have dropped Buell because they just don't "get" the sportbike market (and refuse to learn), most Ducati dealers are passionately into these bikes and speak the language of the sport rider. I think having a good dealer to backup your purchase is worth nearly as much as the bike itself.
I hope this has been helpful. Either way, you'll have a great bike and enjoy it immensely. Good luck and keep us posted. And if you do buy a Buell and want to do a Buell-Monster shootout, I'm sure you'll find someone here who'll be willing to meet up and oblige you. Wheelie on! [beer]
Quote from: ROBsS4R on May 12, 2008, 11:41:22 PM
The Firebolt will have a few more HP and Torque than the S2R1000. The firebolt is closer to S4R numbers.
If you just read the specs than that is an accurate statement. However if you've ever ridden a Firebolt it's not even close. The S4R will spank the Buell without even breaking a sweat.
Regardless, as the OP mentioned in the first post it runs out of revs way to quickly to be any fun.
It's basically just a Sportster with a different riding position and better suspension. [puke] It still comes with shitty components just like Harleys do. I wouldn't give you 12 cents for one, so forget $12 grand.
As far as the service intervals go and the expense, Ducati's are really not that bad. With the newer bikes they are needed less frequently as well (7500 miles).
If you have any mechanical ability you should be able to do most of the maintenance yourself. Also keep in mind there are a bunch of qualified people here that will be more than happy to answer any questions and help you out if you get stuck.
With all that being said it really comes down to which bike you like better. Most of the Buell and Ducati dealers have a demo program so get out and ride both and then make the decision. The decision will be very easy if you do. [moto] <you riding your new Monster>
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=74 (http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=74)
Some interesting info in this thread!
I've heard the Buells tend to shake quite a bit.
True or no?
Quote from: SSSA on May 13, 2008, 10:01:17 PM
Some interesting info in this thread!
I've heard the Buells tend to shake quite a bit.
True or no?
Only at low, high, and some of the middle of the rpm range. There is a sweet spot of about 500 rpm in the middle somewhere that they smooth out.
Well you are right, this is a duc board so most of our views are already pre-biased. I'll freely cop to being biased myself - I would never even consider a Buell in any capacity. that being said though I'm happy to weigh in on my experience on the S2R1K.
Quote from: LastSon on May 12, 2008, 10:25:58 PM
Buell XB12R
I like that it gets great gas mileage.
I like the styling.
I'm curious - what's great gas mileage? I get 42mpg average on my S2R, not to bad in my book.
I'll admit the styling is interesting, and would win out compared to, say, a BMW. But the Monster styling is iconic and incomparable. just my opinion.
Quote from: LastSon on May 12, 2008, 10:25:58 PM
S2R 1000
I don't like the probability of high maintenance costs
I hate the look of the udder on the stock exhaust, meaning I'd have to buy a midpipe.
I don't like the possibilty that I will have surge issues unless I buy a new exhaust and ecu.
the maintenance costs on the S2R arent exactly negligible, but being an air-cooled 2V engine it is much easier to service than other ducs. Many of us here are fully comfortable doing the 6k services ourselves as the valve adjustments and oil changes are relatively easy with a little practice.
You should however factor in the cost of an aftermarket exhaust. I personally had no surging issues with my bike in stock form, but the udder has to go and with any Duc aftermarket pipes are practically a must. Yes it sucks to take the hit to the wallet but when you hear the bike fire up with those termis (or other quality pipes) its all worth it. The hp boost and weight savings pretty much closes the gap to the Buell. if you aren't set on buying new its not hard to find a nice used one with the pipes already on
In the end you've already heard the best advice - ride them both and go with your gut.
Before you decide wait for the 696! Perfect for every use you intend to do.IMO :)
Quote from: factorPlayer on May 13, 2008, 10:31:24 PM
I'm curious - what's great gas mileage? I get 42mpg average on my S2R, not to bad in my book.
The Firebolt is supposed to get 48mpg city and 65mpg hwy. So an average of 56-57mpg if you ride each equally.
I just want to say that I am completely amazed by the wealth of information on this board. The post of the roll-on numbers were especially helpful because it shows that the difference between the 2 bikes is negligible.
There are alot of great opinions here and it's nice to know that so many people have gone through the same thought process before. I really wish I could have both, and maybe someday I will.
So the consensus seems to be that a test drive will ultimately decide if the short rev range is a deal breaker, but someone suggested that having a great dealership should be given more consideration...
I've just assumed that I wouldn't spend much time at the dealership after I bought the bike. I know that having a good mechanic is important, and that there are alot of good ducati mechanics out there. How big of a priority is this when buying a new bike?
Oh, and mxwinky, your post was probably the most informed and fair-minded comparisons I've found between these two bikes on the internet, especially since you actually worked at a dealership. Very helpful.