So I'm thinking about getting VDSTS. I looked at the CA-Cycleworks website and its surprisingly pricey ($195). Then I went to the tecnoresearch website. It looks like you can just download the software for free in the downloads section.
Am I missing something here? Questions below:
1) What am I paying for then? Is it just the cable to connect to the Ducati ECU??
2) Looks like there's an adapter that converts from Serial to USB that costs $45.00 on the CA-Cycleworks website. I can just go to monoprice.com and by a usb to serial converter cable for $6. Is there a difference??
Someone who has this software please clarify. I'm sure there's more that I'm missing.
Thanks in advance
Not sure, but Technoresearch wants the same $195.
http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/VDSTS-Motorbike/VDSTS_Motorbike_Pricing.htm (http://www.technoresearch.com/Products/VDSTS-Motorbike/VDSTS_Motorbike_Pricing.htm)
VDST
The VDST is the single-brand version of our diagnostic scan tool. It is in wide use as the official shop tool of multiple major motorbike manufacturers and professional technicians. It is also available to individual motorcycle owners.
»Pricing
VDST-Standard
Supports ONE INDIVIDUAL MODEL from the following »List
$195
Call Chris, I'm sure he will tell you all you need to know.
Don't have one yet, but I've heard reasonably positive reports from those who do. Maybe I'm the one who's missing something but considering how much time and expense went into developing the software and the hardware and also how much $$ it can save by avoiding dealers, I fail to see how $195 could be considered pricey.
Even though the software is downloadable for free, it can't be used without the hardware and the cost of the software is incorporated into the price of the hardware, so you're not paying $195 just for the hardware.
I suppose if you wanted to bad enough, you could make your own adapter device and use the free software with it - but I'm pretty sure by the time you got it working you would think the $195 price is very fair.
I'll get off my soapbox now, and sorry if I over-reacted or misinterpreted your post.
Looking at the pictures it looks like a simple connection from the pins from the ECU to DP9 Serial. I can't see any micro controllers or anything. Could be some in line resistors. If that is true it doesn't make sense to charge for the cable and not the software.
Yes it does take money to develop software, but I don't have an extra 200 bucks lying around. And I'm the kinda guy that is used to fiddling around with an idle mixture screw. So being able to tinker around the with the ducs electronics would be really fun. But I don't intend to profit from this in any way.
Bottom line is, I won't lose any sleep if I can hack together a quick cable and seemingly as intended, download the software for free. [evil]
*EDIT* Downloaded and installed the software. I haven't tried to make a cable yet, But I get an error when it starts up. "Hardware-Key not found"
So there may be something more to that hardware.
Uh...I have a 5.9M ECU - its 8 bit. I believe my nintendo in 1987 was 8 bit. Have you seen the self diagnostic connector? Its 2 wires. signal and ground.
If there's only 2 wires, most of the serial connector pins will be unused. I dont see this as rocket science. A simple continuity test with a multimeter should provide some good insight and help to gauge what connects where.
I've attached the wiring diagram for an 06 S2R 800. Item 17 is highlighted. Educated guess here but I doubt it would take more than 20 dollars to make the cable. I'll probably spend more money in gas going back and forth to my local electronics store.
Self Diagnostic Connector Wiring Diagram (http://parekhjifamily.homeserver.com/random_served_files/Self%20Diagnosis%20Connector%2006%20S2R.pdf)
Anyone got one sitting around I could take a look at? I live in the Bay area.
Ummm...I think the thing you buy is a piece of hardware that fits between the computer and cable. The little widget has has enough intelligence in it to supply a code on start-up that allows the software to run. Without it, you can't get anything to work. Lots of low-volume, specialized software in the engineering business works that way, anyway.
BTW, I think that's a good set-up. I've got no problem paying for useful products that are worth the money, and this way anyone who has the hardware key can install software updates etc. easily off the web as they become available.
the version we have has a parallel port security dongle - the hardware key that's not found. without that it's not going to work. it connects into the pc or laptop via a serial port or a usb port using a usb - serial convertor.
the $195 is single model use and cheap. the pro kit - the official mv tool - is about us$1,000, or over $2,000 as an offical mv part. the axone - the official aprilia tool, cost us about au$6,000 with the upgrade to multibrand spec. dds is about the same.
Ok so I downloaded and installed the "standard" version. Looks like everything is running. No hardware key errors or anything like that. Now if I could only get ahold of a cable for a few minutes.
My main issue is the battery and ground connections. The last thing I want to do is fry the ECU with improper grounding or polarity.
Quote from: EEL on January 27, 2009, 09:42:27 PM
If there's only 2 wires, most of the serial connector pins will be unused. I dont see this as rocket science. A simple continuity test with a multimeter should provide some good insight and help to gauge what connects where.
I've attached the wiring diagram for an 06 S2R 800. Item 17 is highlighted. Educated guess here but I doubt it would take more than 20 dollars to make the cable. I'll probably spend more money in gas going back and forth to my local electronics store.
Anyone got one sitting around I could take a look at? I live in the Bay area.
<ethics drift>
I bought the software/cable for a reason -- it's a good product and it's affordable. I'd rather make sure companies like this continue to create and sell good products that those in the Ducati industry/individuals use on a regular basis. It's nice being able to download the software and see how to utilize it as a "sales tool". It's why I bought it to begin with. For the minimal cost they are asking for a "standard" version w/connector cable, why cut the companies throat and possibly preclude them from offering something similiar in the future for the 696/1100 and other new Ducati's with the new ECU setup in them? They could easily in the future only provide the "professional version" and none of us outside of a dealership could then afford.
I see better options here of inquiring if there are DMF discounts via vendors or doing a "group buy" to get 10+ systems ordered at once -- thus a vendor will give you a bigger price break.
And the answer is "yes" -- there is a security dongle on it. (although those aren't that difficult to reverse engineer either)
<end ethics drift>
Quote<ethics drift>
Not a drift at all - ethics, or lack therof, is the core of this thread. I don't think that using this forum to enable pirating of a legitimate and reasonably priced product is what the Flounders had in mind. This thread oughta be locked.
I also think $195 for a proper diagnostic tool is pretty standard and reasonable.
I'm not the OP so this is bit of a threadjack...... but lets debate the ethics for a minute. The software is available for download, by the company. No piracy, no hack, no shared passwords, notta. It's not even listed in a support section intended for existing customers. if I supply my own cable I don't see anything wrong with that.
It could be my ethics are tilted. Wouldn't be the first time. [evil] Its just so easy for tecnoresearch to not make this software available. And if its is as easy as putting together a serial connection to the ecu. [roll] Since I know how to create my own cable and most likely have all the pieces kickin' around my garage to make one, is paying 200 bucks for it reasonable? Its a perspective issue. two hundy for a program ... yes. But not when its given away for free.
I draw the distinction at trying to make a profit, or anything else, that isn't personal use.
For reference, I also copy CD's, steal my friends MP3's, toss cats in the air to see if they really do land on their feet, and steal candy from babies. [cheeky]
QuoteThe software is available for download, by the company. No piracy, no hack, no shared passwords, notta.
As I understand it there is a dongle required in order for the software to work when connected to an ECU. The dongle will have to be hacked and hacking the dongle is to my mind at the least a breach of ethics. If someone wants to do it quietly and in the privacy of their own home, fine. But doing it publicly here and inciting others to do the same isn't good for Technoresearch or any of us, as potential users. As MotoCreations I think pointed out, Technoresearch will have to stop supplying the software demo for free and if faced with hacking may not spend the time developing a hobbyist product for newer ECU's which is not good for any of us. So, in addition to being a purely ethical issue it's also a practical one.
Quote from: Langanobob on January 28, 2009, 01:46:04 PM
As I understand it there is a dongle required in order for the software to work when connected to an ECU. The dongle will have to be hacked and hacking the dongle is to my mind at the least a breach of ethics. If someone wants to do it quietly and in the privacy of their own home, fine. But doing it publicly here and inciting others to do the same isn't good for Technoresearch or any of us, as potential users. As MotoCreations I think pointed out, Technoresearch will have to stop supplying the software demo for free and if faced with hacking may not spend the time developing a hobbyist product for newer ECU's which is not good for any of us. So, in addition to being a purely ethical issue it's also a practical one.
IF it is "hacking" the dongle is required then I agree with you. And it does appear to be the case on the "professional version." I don't think making connection A to connection B qualifies. Reverse engineering a code on the other other hand.
The software available is no demo. It won't start up to demo the features. (again professional version) And lacks all of the usual tale tell demo qualities, like grey'd out features, expiration dates, or other incentives to buy.
There is some vagueness of intention here.
I don't know for sure, but I suspect the software that you can download from their site is 100% functional.
Then they sell the dongle.
That way they can actually run a business, and get paid for their product.
If they sold the software, and the cable was just an A-B connector, do you really think they'd end up selling more than one CD of the software?
That's how I'd do it, seeing how it's so difficult to get pirated software. [roll]
Looks like I'm on my own here. Sorry I brought it up.
Bottom line:
1) Its not illegal. They provide the software legitimately for free on their website. There may be a case for them lacking some business sense by doing it. Sorry to be cynical, but personally I dont reward people for being dumb.
2) I'm sorry, but dont we have a thread for cheap a$$ alternative parts for Ducatis as a STICKY??!! I dont see anyone complaining about ethics there? How many out there have chopped their air boxes with a hacksaw to convert them to an open air box??? Does anyone feel guilty about that? What about the starving italian factory workers at ducati that arent getting a raise because you didnt dish out 130 bucks for a "DP Open Air box" or a fuel filter, clutch throwout bearing, etc etc.
3) I dont want to sound slanderous here didnt we just COPY a completely legitimate DUCATI MONSTER FORUM design cuz we didnt like paying for it??? I'm sure there was some regulation in the VS contract that prevented this type of situation but here we are anyways. If they cared to do so do you not think they could shut us down?
I smell the stench of hypocrisy in the air. You guys really need to lighten up a bit.
I still want to go ahead with this. If anyone wants to lend me their cable. PM me. Sorry about the rant.
-EEL
There are successful business models for selling a software products. Including piracy protection, trial software, and licensing. TechnoResearch has protected the professional version of their product. They issue a USB key with a registration code in the professional kit. The standard lacks any such protection. And in any case there are better ways to protect yourself then selling the equivalent of a telephone cord for $195.
I've OWNED the Techno Research VDSTS software and cable for two years now, and it is well worth the price. It does not take much to time before you need to perform certain checks on a bike. I can do them at will. I even sent my cable back to them and upgraded it to run the software off my dell Axim hand held. That is some slick stuff to be able to do diagnostics on a hand held. The big plus is that since the single user license applies to an ECU type, you can use it on any bike that uses the same MM ECU.
As for the whole "hacker thing", I'm on the side of Techno Research. They have provided many updates to all the different software platforms for bona fide users. We stay up to date. 99% of the companies out there charge annual upgrade/update fees. I am able to test many of the systems on the bike, reset the TPS, record various channels while the bike runs, and not have to leave my garage. (the nearest dealer is 4+ hours away)
Techno Research also has been responsive when I needed to talk to them. If you do hack the cable, hopefully they will come out with a more robust USB dongle that you can't hack, at which time every legitimate use will have to purchase one, and once again you will be disabled. I would rather you find a friend who has the tool, borrow it and keep things the way they are, if it comes down to keeping Techno Research in business and defeating a hack, I vote for keeping Techno Research in business and will gladly send them more money for such a great tool.
That's my story, and I'm stickin to it!
I have the software for my 5.9 ECU. The single ECU version does not have a hardware dongle. This is not the version Brad has in his shop. I think it had a code to type in, maybe not, can't remember.
There is the cable and, if you need it, the USB adapter.
You only need the adapter if you don't have a serial port on your PC. It is more than a $6 cable. The adapter along with its driver software allow you to create a virtual serial port and address it so it can be used. I've worked with lots of USB adapters, they can be very finicky. So I followed TechnoResearch's recommendation and bought the relatively expensive brand they recommended. It works no problem.
The cable is basically a long cable with a small chip in it. The chip converts the signals the bike puts out to a signal that can be interpreted by a computer serial port. It is not a simple connection.
Before buying it I looked into another option. Some German guys have free software and rough plans for the adapter cable, they don't have it working for all motorcycles. The do have it working for some Buells which use also use the Magnetti Marelli 5.9 ECU. I totalled up the cost of the cable, connectors, the chip, the other circuitry you'd need to convert the bikes 12V power to a 5V supply the chip can use (it doesn't get its power from the signal lines) and though I could probably have put it together for $60-100 I just went and bought the Technoesearch VDSTS.
I spend all day fixing broken things on computers for a living. I don't want to spend my free time doing the same thing at home, I just want to tune my bike. The TechnoResearch software is cool, it works, ir does what it says. On the other side of the coin, while you can get lots of diagnostics back from the 5.9 ECU you can only make a few adjustments, basically resetting the TPS and setting the idle mixture. $200 is a lot for that but it will pay for itself when you do your first service.
For me, being able to do my own service whenever I want its well worth the price. Saving a few dollars by building my own cable or buying a cheap USB adapter and then spending hours debugging and getting it working is not my idea of fun. i like working on my bike, I don't want to spend hours on my computer before I can do that. Hope this helps.
Scott
1+; I debated back and forth about shoud I or shouldn't I, 257 (with all the add-ons and shipping) seems expensive, but all toll ... but in the end bucked up ... just recived the package today ... I'll let you know by next week how it performs.
Quote from: EEL on January 28, 2009, 04:33:45 PM
Looks like I'm on my own here. Sorry I brought it up.
Bottom line:
1) Its not illegal. They provide the software legitimately for free on their website. There may be a case for them lacking some business sense by doing it. Sorry to be cynical, but personally I dont reward people for being dumb.
Most places provide the software for free in case you lose the install disk etc. All the drivers for my printer are online-I'm guessing that's a courtesy, and not an invite to build my own printer.
Quote from: EEL on January 28, 2009, 04:33:45 PM
2) I'm sorry, but dont we have a thread for cheap a$$ alternative parts for Ducatis as a STICKY??!! I dont see anyone complaining about ethics there? How many out there have chopped their air boxes with a hacksaw to convert them to an open air box??? Does anyone feel guilty about that? What about the starving italian factory workers at ducati that arent getting a raise because you didnt dish out 130 bucks for a "DP Open Air box" or a fuel filter, clutch throwout bearing, etc etc.
Saving money by buying an alternative is not the same. Cutting up the airbox *I* bought is in no way taking away from what other people are making. If everyone made their own cables and downloaded this software-the company would cease to be. Ducati would still sell motorcycles if we all chopped our own lids.
Quote from: EEL on January 28, 2009, 04:33:45 PM
3) I dont want to sound slanderous here didnt we just COPY a completely legitimate DUCATI MONSTER FORUM design cuz we didnt like paying for it??? I'm sure there was some regulation in the VS contract that prevented this type of situation but here we are anyways. If they cared to do so do you not think they could shut us down?
I smell the stench of hypocrisy in the air. You guys really need to lighten up a bit.
I still want to go ahead with this. If anyone wants to lend me their cable. PM me. Sorry about the rant.
-EEL
No, the code was written by people who did not benefit from the sale-AFAIK the site was sold, not the code, and certainly not the participants, so no, they probably could not shut us down.
As far as lightening up, the
majority of people in here seem to think that if you want a tool, paying for a nice one is the way to go. You might want to think about that.
Quote from: EEL on January 28, 2009, 04:33:45 PM
3) I dont want to sound slanderous here didnt we just COPY a completely legitimate DUCATI MONSTER FORUM design cuz we didnt like paying for it??? I'm sure there was some regulation in the VS contract that prevented this type of situation but here we are anyways. If they cared to do so do you not think they could shut us down?
NO.
I think you need to stop typing about stuff you don't know anything about before this thread gets locked. The DMF is not a "copy" - it has the same free open source software (SMF) underpinnings and some of the same colors as the other board, but that is where it ends. We wrote brand new guidelines, FAQ's, and tutorials. Also, the people that started this board didn't have any agreements with VS, and starting this board was actually more expensive for us than paying the membership dues to VS [roll] .
If you can't see the difference between that and what you are asking to do, then you should probably just delete this thread.
mitt
Hello Moderator, PLEASE DELETE THIS THREAD.
It has provided no useful information for me. All i've gotten is "holier than thou" responses from people whom (if i was a betting man) violate their own ethics every time they turn on their IPOD.
I'll just figure it out on my own.
<End of Thread>
Naw, I think we should leave this thread as a warning to others [cheeky]
And for the record, I've never pirated music or movies.
But you mod your bike to violate state regulations... [evil]
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 29, 2009, 10:54:14 AM
If everyone made their own cables and downloaded this software-the company would cease to be.
I'm no so sure I agree. Technoresearch specifically states in their FAQ:
8 Q: Which products require a hardware key?
A: • Professional version of Vehicle Diagnostic Scan-Tool Software (VDSTS) DOES require hardware key
• Standard version of Vehicle Diagnostic Scan-Tool Software (VDSTS) DOES NOT require a hardware key
The sales of the professional version are protected. NOT the standard version. I'm not going to guess at their business model or their intent of distributing their software. But it is clearly not an over site. They may make enough money off of the professional version. who knows?
Quote from: MrIncredible on January 29, 2009, 10:54:14 AM
As far as lightening up, the majority of people in here seem to think that if you want a tool, paying for a nice one is the way to go. You might want to think about that.
Umm one word: Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh [cheeky]
Thread locked, as it's getting progressively nastier.