Ok, I kinda dropped the ball on the ceramic coating thing I posted on TOB.
But with summer coming in and the heat from my exhaust, I might have to cry uncle soon enough and get this done.
So, I'm going to locate a good local coater and see if they can cut us a group price for headers. Let me know if you'd be interested
Quote from: bryant8 on May 23, 2008, 02:11:36 PM
Ok, I kinda dropped the ball on the ceramic coating thing I posted on TOB.
But with summer coming in and the heat from my exhaust, I might have to cry uncle soon enough and get this done.
So, I'm going to locate a good local coater and see if they can cut us a group price for headers. Let me know if you'd be interested
i would be interested for the right price.
Quote from: McKraut on May 23, 2008, 02:12:42 PM
i would be interested for the right price.
Ditto in black!! ;D
Quote from: littleyellowduc (LYD) on May 23, 2008, 02:52:30 PM
Ditto in black!! ;D
hell i'm flexible on color even...red, black, silver....if the price is right....
Please don't laugh, but can they coat the inside of the pipes?
I won't laugh. This time.
But if your next post is "So, how much to get the inside of my pipes coated?"...
[laugh]
On a more serious note. Forgive my n00bness, but do they spray and bake, or dip and bake when they do this?
Cuz if it's dip and bake the inside would be done by default yes.
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on May 24, 2008, 01:49:55 AM
Please don't laugh, but can they coat the inside of the pipes?
the jet-hot process does the inside, but i don't think *all* ceramic coating coats the inside by default. i don't believe my pipes on the s2r got coated on the inside now that i think about it, but i could be mistaken.
man...i just rubbed my eyes with a finger that has some siracha chilli sauce on it...this is going to be fun.
Quote from: McKraut on May 24, 2008, 06:32:29 AM
the jet-hot process does the inside, but i don't think *all* ceramic coating coats the inside by default.
It'd be nice to do the inside for heat, but leave the outside shiny, bling bling ;D
I'm in, but would like to know more. Leaving the outside shiny would be great. I like the looks now, just not the heat...
I have used Enduro Coatings in Mesquite for both powder coating and ceramic coatings on various car projects through the years. Excellent price and service.
http://www.endurocoatings.com/
I might be interested in this. I'll watch the thread and see what happens. [thumbsup]
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on May 24, 2008, 06:44:28 AM
It'd be nice to do the inside for heat, but leave the outside shiny, bling bling ;D
Mee Too!
I like the look of the "Early" Termies for the 1098 (that I have hand welded TIG, not MIG-robot like they are now) ...and have gently cleaned them for many miles... sort of looking polished... but still changing colors too.
I don't have any problem with the heat on the bike.
But better is the worst enemy of good enough!
INSIDE coating! I'm for it.
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on May 24, 2008, 06:44:28 AM
It'd be nice to do the inside for heat, but leave the outside shiny, bling bling ;D
Jet-Hot has bling bling coatings; shiny. So while it's inside and out, it's still pretty.
any potential local coaters located yet? i used a guy up on NW hwy near midway... he did a good job for cheap, though i don't know if he coated the inside. here's his site: http://www.engineceramics.com/
I haven't gotten a chance to breathe yet after the HC trip but I'll get started on locating a local coater ASAP. I think for the most part we'll be looking for standard black for the coating.
Me thinks I would like to do this as well. I shall follow with much interest.
http://www.endurocoatings.com/
I just called, they said they would do it for $100 if we brought them in at the same time. Down from 125 - 150
I'll need an official head count and give me the estimated length of your pipes so I can give them the most accurate info before the final price is given.
Bryant -> 2-1-2 est 6'
Quote from: bryant8 on June 04, 2008, 02:28:16 PM
they said they would do it for $100 if we brought them in at the same time.
Is that coating the insides?
They coat the outside and inside of the headers. I'll call a few more places and see if they can beat the $100 quote.
Btw the turnaround would be 5-7 days
What would the thickness of this coating be when dry and would that affect the inside diameter of the pipe?
cdc
I've been thinking of doing this too. I too wonder about the inner diameter and thickness of coatings. What are the major benefits? How much weight does it add? Actually wondering if there is much of a plus to doing it on my ST4s. I know the seat gets a bit toasty due to the vert cylinder exhaust being right there under it.
On another note, a friend of mine had his cylinder and piston done for his minimotard that he races in TXminiGP. He used www.engineceramics.com and was very pleased with the service. Said the guy was cheaper and got it done when he said he would. Does it in his garage evidently.
Steve
The coating is very thin. The main concern would be where two pipes come together, male/female so to speak. If it's already a tight fit, it might be a problem fitting them back together. They should be able to tape that area off, or at least recommend a way to protect the joint, or not. I had posted a local place a couple months ago on a ceramic thread. Don't recall the name without searching TOB.
For your consideration, I have an '06 ST3, so all the exhaust headers are shrouded (hidden) by the body work - I wrapped the pipes in Thermo-Tech copper-coated tape, and the difference is amazing.
- I believe the tape will contain far more heat in the pipes than the ceramic coating,
- You can do it yourself in a half day,
- It's cheaper than ceramic coating,
- Surprisingly big jump in performance,
- On my bike, it can't be seen anyway (it's not particulary pretty).
Anyway, I'm VERY happy with this small investment I made. Thought you might like to know.
Pura vida!
George
Quote from: GeorgeInDallas on June 07, 2008, 07:20:42 AM
- On my bike, it can't be seen anyway (it's not particulary pretty).
You mean, it looks, ah, monsterous? ;)
Mummy, make him stop!
I'm interested in this too. I have the full Termi's for the 1098. I just really am dreading the removal of the header pipes. They aren't easy to remove or replace. :-\
Quote from: GeorgeInDallas on June 07, 2008, 07:20:42 AM
For your consideration, I have an '06 ST3, so all the exhaust headers are shrouded (hidden) by the body work - I wrapped the pipes in Thermo-Tech copper-coated tape, and the difference is amazing.
Anyway, I'm VERY happy with this small investment I made. Thought you might like to know.
Pura vida!
George
Yes, I'd like to know where you got the tape, quantity, and price.
Thanks!
Steve
Quote from: Asia1098 on June 08, 2008, 05:41:56 PM
I'm interested in this too. I have the full Termi's for the 1098. I just really am dreading the removal of the header pipes. They aren't easy to remove or replace. :-\
I didn't have too much of a problem taking the full exhaust off of the 848. I'll try and find a bit more info on the endurocoatings and find a competitor or two for a price match or better [thumbsup]
Not sure if coating/tape is needed yet. Rubina (my 848 to the rest of the world) is at AMS getting a full termi system and tuned. ;D
Quote from: GeorgeInDallas on June 07, 2008, 07:20:42 AM
- I believe the tape will contain far more heat in the pipes than the ceramic coating,
- You can do it yourself in a half day,
- It's cheaper than ceramic coating,
- Surprisingly big jump in performance,
- On my bike, it can't be seen anyway (it's not particulary pretty).
The last thing you want to do is "contain" the heat from your pipes.
Ceramic coating (actually
aluminum-ceramic)
distributes the heat so that it is evenly shed. Wrapping your pipes makes hotspots on the pipes even more contained. It is like putting on a wool parka when you have a 108 fever. Wrapping the pipe with a hotspot will contain -- and cause premature failure of the pipe.
Wrapping in
car racing is to reduce
engine compartment heat. Simply explained, it causes horsepower gains because of the lowered heat in the engine, NOT because the heat is contained. This is not an issue with motorcycles, where the pipes are exposed to airflow.
Furthermore, wrapping a pipe
holds moisture against the pipe. Stainless pipes WILL RUST over time and wrapping them just speeds this up.
You claim a jump in performance, I would like to see that on a dyno. Plenty of evidence to the contrary (i.e. no difference). All of the claims of hp gains seem to be from places selling the stuff.
Lastly, the proof is in the pudding: if wrapping pipes created a performance increase, why don't motogp and SBK teams wrap the pipes? (They are all aluma-ceramic coated or not at all).
- Alu-ceramic coatings evenly distribute heat so it sheds faster
- Alu-ceramic coatings prevent rust, since aluminum and ceramic can't rust
- Alu-ceramic does not hold moisture like wrappings
- Alu-ceramic will make your pipes last 100x as long (and can be re-coated when the coating wears)
I have a set of Sil headers on my 900SS which I bought in 1999 ( a 95 900ss) and got them coated. they still look NEW (use 000 wool and chrome polish to clean -- good as new).
I like the wrapping. The bike feels stronger, but you are correct, Truth in Advertising requires a dyno test. I wasn't expecting any performance change, but as I said, I'm surprised. Try wrapping yours and see what you think - it's only about $25. I ride my bike everyday, so I'm not terribly concerned about moisture accumulating. But I'm also happy for you that your pipes look nice...nobody can even see mine.
The principal reason I wrapped my pipes was to keep the @#$%@ heat from barbecuing my right thigh again this summer here in Dallas (where we invented Global Warming). It's doing a fine job, better I'm sure that ceramic could do, based on what you've said. I'm not interested in "spreading out the heat dissapation on the pipe"... I want the friggen heat to stay in the pipe until it gets past me, preferably out the tailpipe. Why on earth would anyone want to spread out the heat in the pipe?
Why don't they use wrapping in MotoGP? Gee, I guess that, at 200 mph, they probably don't get much heat on their thighs. Or maybe they just haven't caught up to us yet.
Quote from: GeorgeInDallas on June 10, 2008, 03:52:44 PM
The principal reason I wrapped my pipes was to keep the @#$%@ heat from barbecuing my right thigh again this summer here in Dallas (where we invented Global Warming). It's doing a fine job, better I'm sure that ceramic could do, based on what you've said. I'm not interested in "spreading out the heat dissapation on the pipe"... I want the friggen heat to stay in the pipe until it gets past me, preferably out the tailpipe. Why on earth would anyone want to spread out the heat in the pipe?
You've hit on the only good reason for wrapping the pipe -- insulating against heat.
As far as dissipation, the overall amount of heat (in BTUs) is the SAME. If your bike produces 5000 btu's of heat, it's going to do it regardless if you have ceramic or wrapped pipes.
However, hotspots can and do occur and will compromise the metal of your pipes.. Ceramic prevents this, but wrapping does not.
However, ceramic does not make a good insulator -- it just makes the hotspots go away. Wrapping doesn't.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 10, 2008, 04:14:05 PM
You've hit on the only good reason for wrapping the pipe -- insulating against heat.
As far as dissipation, the overall amount of heat (in BTUs) is the SAME. If your bike produces 5000 btu's of heat, it's going to do it regardless if you have ceramic or wrapped pipes.
However, hotspots can and do occur and will compromise the metal of your pipes.. Ceramic prevents this, but wrapping does not.
However, ceramic does not make a good insulator -- it just makes the hotspots go away. Wrapping doesn't.
Can you re-word that in Haiku form? [laugh]
Protect from the heat
Wrapping the pipe works very good
Hotspots will not leave
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on June 10, 2008, 04:15:46 PM
Can you re-word that in Haiku form? [laugh]
I wish I could, wait till I drink more soju.
Quote from: Ducatiloo on June 10, 2008, 04:28:37 PM
Protect from the heat
Wrapping the pipe works very good <-----
Hotspots will not leave
[leo] syllable violation [leo]
Quote from: dallas2r on June 10, 2008, 04:51:49 PM
[leo] syllable violation [leo]
Protect from the heat
Wrapping the pipe works super.
Hot spots will not leave
Thank you for the correction it means a lot to me
Quote from: Ducatiloo on June 10, 2008, 07:53:42 PM
Protect from the heat
Wrapping the pipe works super.
Hot spots will not leave
Thank you for the correction it means a lot to me
All in a days work. ;D [thumbsup]
Quote from: GeorgeInDallas on June 10, 2008, 03:52:44 PM
...I wrapped my pipes was to keep the @#$%@ heat from barbecuing my right thigh again this summer here in Dallas (where we invented Global Warming).
I have an ST4S and have not had a problem with heat as I would on superbikes with underseat exhaust when the pipes come up infront of the rear wheel along the thighs. I am curious why your ST3 emits heat there when our pipes are essentially low mounted.
cdc
It hasn't been excruciatingly hot yet... maybe I've misdiagnosed... maybe it's the radiator. Shall I try wrapping the radiator? I could probably contain the heat there, too. I'm just full of great ideas. ;D
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 10, 2008, 04:35:47 PM
I wish I could, wait till I drink more soju.
How's the drinking coming along?!? [drink]
Nice to see some "outsiders" lurking in our humble area [thumbsup]
Quote from: GeorgeInDallas on June 11, 2008, 04:40:26 AM
It hasn't been excruciatingly hot yet... maybe I've misdiagnosed... maybe it's the radiator. Shall I try wrapping the radiator? I could probably contain the heat there, too. I'm just full of great ideas. ;D
Well you know, it is called a radiator. so it must radiate heat. and you don't want heat so you could coat it instead. ;D
cdc
Quote from: cdc on June 11, 2008, 10:51:14 AM
Well you know, it is called a radiator. so it must radiate heat. and you don't want heat so you could coat it instead. ;D
cdc
Your tires make heat at well....
Quote from: Ducatiloo on June 11, 2008, 10:53:16 AM
Your tires make heat at well....
Dang, we could coat that too! It'd look trick but... ;D
cdc
Quote from: Ducatiloo on June 10, 2008, 07:53:42 PM
Protect from the heat
Wrapping the pipe works super.
Hot spots will not leave
Awesome [thumbsup]
Welcome to our little corner of the forum... ;D
Great avatar, btw, although it kinda makes me wanna pee :P
Ron do you remember the name of that place you posted on TOB? I'd like to get a comparo price to enduro
I don't know the place he used, but I've used Performance Coatings in WA, HPC, and Jet-Hott. Performance was the cheapest overall.
Quote from: bryant8 on June 11, 2008, 01:36:09 PM
Ron do you remember the name of that place you posted on TOB? I'd like to get a comparo price to enduro
I'm out drinking so I'm worthless tonight. I will dig out their business card and post it when I'm done with my hangover.
interesting read here: http://www.engineceramics.com/id_coating.htm they're out of wichita falls
I just emailed enduro again with all the questions that I could remember that people asked
1. Inside only coating
2. Thickness of coating
3. Turn around time
4. How many for the group discount ($100/system)
Quote from: McKraut on June 12, 2008, 05:28:08 AM
interesting read here: http://www.engineceramics.com/id_coating.htm they're out of wichita falls
That pretty much blows the inside coating to hell :o
But 70mm isn't a small diameter pipe.
Quote from: bryant8 on June 12, 2008, 12:45:15 PM
But 70mm isn't a small diameter pipe.
My pipes aren't 70mm. Do you have the Full Termi system?
I think the point is that they bend, & they can't adequately prep the interior, or spray it evenly.
I'll send the guy another email and see what his views are on it.
I do have the full system for the 848, but it's only 56mm.
Quote from: bryant8 on June 12, 2008, 12:52:05 PM
I do have the full system for the 848, but it's only 56mm.
I only have the half system. The mid-pipes with Race ECU is around $2,000. plus install & dyno :P
Now if everyone on the DMF would just send me $10........
If any of you guys are still interested in the coating please post your system specs so I can get a head count for the coater
Bryant -> 2-1-2 ~ 6' of length
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on June 12, 2008, 12:40:47 PM
That pretty much blows the inside coating to hell :o
Small diameter meaning small. like an inch, plus he is referring to pipe with significant bends (more than 90 deg). Most of our exhausts don't have these.
I'm seeing some crazy bends...
(http://www.advancedmotorsports.com/v/vspfiles/photos/96445205BA-1.jpg)
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on June 12, 2008, 01:10:25 PM
I'm seeing some crazy bends...
(http://www.advancedmotorsports.com/v/vspfiles/photos/96445205BA-1.jpg)
is that a SIL? that is multiple pieces, no?
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 12, 2008, 01:12:38 PM
is that a SIL? that is multiple pieces, no?
Looks like the DP midpipes for the 1098 to add to the half system
If it's like the 848 full system, it is multi piece
Quote from: bryant8 on June 12, 2008, 01:22:42 PM
Looks like the DP midpipes for the 1098 to add to the half system
You are correct.
I looked at the stock midpipes on the 1098, & it is a 2 piece system. 1 piece is long, with 2 90 bends, & 1 >180 degree bend.
The other pice has 90 degree bends as well. 57mm is less than 2 1/4 inches.
The Paul Smart pipes are smaller, although a little straighter, but each piece has some serious bends.
FWIW:
Quote
Rich,
We used to be located in Dallas but are now in Wichita Falls, TX.
Typically, Harley pipes/headers 27" or less in size are $104.00 ( +Tax
and return S/H) we offer Satin Black or CermaKrome - other colors
include Gray and a Titanium finish but none of our customers ever
selects those colors.
Coating the interiors of the pipe is not offered as the critical stage
of the entire process involves blasting the surface with aluminum
oxide in order for the ceramic coating to first adhere to the surface
and then bond to it. When the insides of pipes are coated the coating
passes out the exhaust. The only way to prepare the inside of a pipe
is with chemical etching using acid. Using this process would get us
so far into the EPA's field of view that the would probably set up
shop right next to us.
We would offer a discount of 20% for 5 or more - but only on the Satin
Black. The CermaKrome finish involves additional stages of polishing
that is labor intensive. We do not offer polished black coatings
because they become satin - like with time.
Ceramic coatings are thin layer coatings that are somewhere between
0.0015 - 0.0020" thick so, essentially they add nothing to the
finished size. The coatings are good to a temperature of 2000 degrees
farenheit and are cured in our industrial oven at 750 degrees
fahrenheit with final cure occuring after operating temperatutes are
achieved on the bike.
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Jim
Performance Ceramics LLC
Thanks McKraut [thumbsup]
I wonder how the CermaKrome finish compares to Stainless Steel?
Quote from: McKraut on June 12, 2008, 03:59:22 PM
FWIW:
interesting.
performance coatings uses both an aluminum oxide blast AND an acid etch.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 12, 2008, 04:34:03 PM
performance coatings uses both an aluminum oxide blast AND an acid etch.
Please quantify... Is that good or bad? Do other people not do that??
Quote from: Duc L'Smart on June 12, 2008, 04:36:13 PM
Please quantify... Is that good or bad? Do other people not do that??
I know HPC and Performance Coatings do it so they can coat the inside. I think you'll see wide variation -- alu-ceramic coatings are not that exotic anymore.