So I'm going to meet my girlfriend for dinner. While searching for a spot in the parking lot, I hit a huge pothole.
I was going at such a slow speed that the wheel just caught. I was thrown, but fortunately no injury. My bike sustained some
minor damage to the bar end and scratched my carbon seat cowl. My left side mirror shattered, as well.
I was so pissed when I went to pick the bike back up, I did it so fast that it almost fell over the other way [laugh]
Anyway once inside the restaurant I found out the information about the owner of the parking lot and called the police to come and
make a report. I then filed a claim w/ my insurance company, gave them the information about the owner and am currently waiting to hear
the result. I am hoping that the owner of the parking lot is liable and will take care of the damages to my bike. There were several potholes,
very large and deep ones. None of which were marked with cones or anything. My attention was not necessarily on avoiding potholes but rather
looking for a parking spot and avoiding pedestrians and other cars...
My questions are:
Has anybody else gone thru a similar situation that might be able to give me some advice?
Did I handle the situation properly?
What might I expect to result?
Thanks in advance
<admin hat off>
potholes are a fact of life and bad pavement in parking lots should be part of what we look for as motorcyclists. If you come to my place and park up, and hit a bad spot of gravel because I haven't swept carefully, are you going to try to make me responsible for damage if you drop your bike?
It's a lesson learned and you shouldn't try to make anyone but yourself responsible for any damage.
going after the owner will likely result in a big sign that says "no motorcycles" in his lot from now on and that hurts everyone else. When people then ask why he's being an ass about bikes he will tell your story.
so my $.02, since you asked, is that you did not handle it appropriately. cops? really?
I disagree Chris, here's an example.
Let's say he was in a grocery store and there was a missing tile in the floor (similar to a pothole). While walking through the store, you trip on the edge because of the missing tile. Should the owner no be responsible in this situation?
The parking lot is their property and their responsibility to maintain...
Parking lots are different from store floors.
It's foreseeable that a broken piece of floor would result in someone slipping and falling, but a different kind of vigilance is expected of a driver while in/on his vehicle.
What if the pot hole was a child instead? A toddler who had run out. Would using the excuse "I was looking for a parking spot" work?
I don't think the owner can be held liable. Yes it sucks, but it's kind of your obligation to know what's in front of the bike.
That's a good point, but you can't say a child running out is similar to poor maintenance...
I'm with Statler, potholes unfortunately are a way of life.
Unless the pothole looks like this :o
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1162783/pothole.jpg)
on a brighter note, you may find a free mirror and some hints for the scratched cowl here. :-\
(my my stock mirrors already shipped away so I can't help there or I would volunteer first...sorry)
Quote from: NAKID on May 31, 2008, 06:14:37 PM
That's a good point, but you can't say a child running out is similar to poor maintenance...
exactly, but each party's duty is balanced against the other's.
I would argue that the owner's duty here is to
invitees (customers) which means he must keep the premises safe or warn of
hidden defects. I think it would be hard to argue a pothole is hidden.
Balanced against the invitee's duty to drive in a prudent manner. The owner would probably argue that the rider was not paying proper attention and had he done so, he would have avoided the open defect.
Uphill battle. Mainly because the owner here doesn't have a duty to provide a hazard-free parking lot, he just has to warn people if there is some hidden problem which could cause injury.
Quote from: msincredible on May 31, 2008, 06:17:05 PM
I'm with Statler, potholes unfortunately are a way of life.
Unless the pothole looks like this :o
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-3/1162783/pothole.jpg)
definitely not a hidden defect.
and i think "Godzilla was here" would be apropos graffitti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIllRdSzSug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIllRdSzSug)
if that video had been a shaved-head-guy instead of the dreadlock guy I would have banned you. ;D
(statler is an attorney in the 9 to 5 world for those who didn't know)
Whats your take on Nails near a construction site. Nails are not as easy to see as potholes.
I have had 2 flats this year because of careless workers spewing nails all over the area they are working.
Personally I just sucked it up to bad luck but wouldn't it be nice if that company and or their workers were more considerate of Automobiles and Motorcycles ???
How do we make them more considerate unless someone complains or make them liable for the damage ???
Or do we just chalk it up to another road risk and deal with it ???
Nails are a different matter, and it also depends on who controls the land/property the nails are left on and if it is publicly accessible and so on.
The pothole situation is different because the landowner is inviting people to come, whereas a construction site does not usually invite people.
If the nails are on public property, the general attitude is that simple negligence (i.e. the dropping of nails) is insufficient to make the dropper liable. However, if they are intentionally doing it, or they are doing it in such a way as to create a major hazard for many people, it could be criminal negligence, which is a different standard.
Also, some might argue that if you're passing a construction site, the sensible person would watch out more for hazards.
Here are some of the things you have to ask:
1. what is the hazard? is it visible to most people?
2. who controls the property on which the hazard is situated?
3. is the hazard ephemeral? does it move?
4. do you have the ability to avoid the hazard? is it obscured in such a way or are you required to pass over it?
5 ~~~
answer those questions for each situation and see how they are different. try to come up with opposing answers (i.e. its public land but the construction use of it means they have quasi-control because they have to clean it up etc)
Quote from: Statler on May 31, 2008, 07:19:56 PM
if that video had been a shaved-head-guy instead of the dreadlock guy I would have banned you. ;D
(statler is an attorney in the 9 to 5 world for those who didn't know)
why??????
the ron [evil]
did you take a pic of the hole? trying to imagine how deep it would have to be in order to "throw" you off the bike at low speed...
Quote from: Statler on May 31, 2008, 05:55:03 PM
<admin hat off>
potholes are a fact of life and bad pavement in parking lots should be part of what we look for as motorcyclists. If you come to my place and park up, and hit a bad spot of gravel because I haven't swept carefully, are you going to try to make me responsible for damage if you drop your bike?
It's a lesson learned and you shouldn't try to make anyone but yourself responsible for any damage.
going after the owner will likely result in a big sign that says "no motorcycles" in his lot from now on and that hurts everyone else. When people then ask why he's being an ass about bikes he will tell your story.
so my $.02, since you asked, is that you did not handle it appropriately. cops? really?
Okay, fair enough. Let me first say that I appreciate and respect the input especially from an attorney. You must have some knowledge of similar cases.
I did however want to clear up a couple things. My intention is not to sue. I'm not looking to make money off of this situation and I am by no means an opportunist or someone who is gonna go cry injury and try to get rich off of this.
I do believe that if someone has a business and profits from inviting people onto their property, it should be a safe environment. And any hazards that cannot be easily taken care of should at least be marked w/ something more easily noticeable. (BTW, who equated a pothole w/ a small child?? I think
there is a little difference there.)
Yes, I called the police because I had an accident. I filed an accident report so that I can give it to my insurance company. So that I can get the damages fixed whether it comes out of my pocket or not.
Quote from: Magnus on June 01, 2008, 08:33:49 AM
did you take a pic of the hole? trying to imagine how deep it would have to be in order to "throw" you off the bike at low speed...
Yeah, I did snap some pics. I'll try to post some when I can. I used a sharpie marker to gauge the depth and it was about as deep as the length of the marker.
Quote from: jmoth79 on June 01, 2008, 08:43:07 AM
Okay, fair enough. Let me first say that I appreciate and respect the input especially from an attorney.
ducatizzz actually covered some of the legal issues. I was commenting less from what could be done and more what I thought should be done...they often don't match up.
How about something in the middle? If it's a place you go from time to time maybe the owner will give you some free stuff (food and drink) at about the cost of the stuff busted on the bike (which would of course cost him a lot less). maybe he'll host an italian bike night with some great specials.
no matter what I hope it gets resolved to something you are happy with...nothing worse than that niggling unhappy feeling about a situation.
We are way too sue happy as a society.
I have to agree with Chris that potholes are a way of life. As far as a tile missing in the store, watch where you are walking.
Things happen, why do we always have to find someone else to blame?
Quote from: jmoth79 on June 01, 2008, 08:43:07 AM
My intention is not to sue. I'm not looking to make money off of this situation and I am by no means an opportunist or someone who is gonna go cry injury and try to get rich off of this.
What did you not understand about this statement?
Quote from: jmoth79 on June 01, 2008, 08:43:07 AM
I do believe that if someone has a business and profits from inviting people onto their property, it should be a safe environment. And any hazards that cannot be easily taken care of should at least be marked w/ something more easily noticeable. (BTW, who equated a pothole w/ a small child?? I think there is a little difference there.)
that was me, and i'm also an attorney, spent 7 years doing industrial injury litigation before going back to IP and transactional law.
the point wasn't to say that a pothole and a child are the same it was to elucidate that the driver also has a duty to operate his vehicle in a reasonable manner..
both the landowner and someone traversing the land have duties. a business landowner's duty to business invitees (customers) is to provide a reasonably safe property and to warn of hidden dangers (defects). both of these descriptions are textbook tort terms. your duty is to operate your vehicle in a "reasonable and prudent manner". that includes doing reasonable things so that you don't get hurt by obvious defects in the property.
My point was that it could be argued you were too busy looking for a place to park and not paying enough attention to what's in front of you and that a pothole could not be considered "hidden."
You could argue that the owner had an obligation to put up a warning about the potholes. With some good footwork, it could win. But I think it's weak. It's not the same as a hidden defect such as a slippery floor.
usually hidden defects are things like a floor with a weak member underneath, or a floor that gets slippery when wet, or a toilet that tends to overflow if you don't jiggle the handle.
understood. Thanks for the wise words.
Yeah let's sue everyone for everything. Soon we'll be suing our parents for bad genetics. Would you sue the city if you ran over a pot hole in the street? Sorry to hear about your ride, but thems the breaks. We are responsible for our own actions, so be more vigilant, live and learn.
well, what happens on private property is often different.
if the pavement fell in and it was due to the owner's lack of maintenance, i might say he has a case since it is a hidden defect (regardless if owner knew about it, he has a duty to find problems)
it's the openness of the pothole here that i think makes it a weak claim.
but what's wrong with suing people? if people REALLY didn't like lawsuits, all those lawyer shows wouldn't be so damn popular. Who do you think watches them? Lawyers?? Nope!
Quote from: ROBsS4R on June 01, 2008, 04:05:27 AM
Whats your take on Nails near a construction site. Nails are not as easy to see as potholes.
I have had 2 flats this year because of careless workers spewing nails all over the area they are working.
Personally I just sucked it up to bad luck but wouldn't it be nice if that company and or their workers were more considerate of Automobiles and Motorcycles ???
How do we make them more considerate unless someone complains or make them liable for the damage ???
Or do we just chalk it up to another road risk and deal with it ???
I sold roofs for 12 years full time and now on the side. Everytime I went by one of my jobs I picked up nails. If anyone got a flat tire from nails when/or shortly after I was working somewhere I just told them to buy a new tire and give me a copy of the bill. I always paid them. Funny thing is I've never got a flat from a nail on one of my sites. I also don't drive over debris near construction sites. Funny how that works. :)
Quote from: hbliam on June 01, 2008, 02:13:54 PM
I sold roofs for 12 years full time and now on the side. Everytime I went by one of my jobs I picked up nails. If anyone got a flat tire from nails when/or shortly after I was working somewhere I just told them to buy a new tire and give me a copy of the bill. I always paid them. Funny thing is I've never got a flat from a nail on one of my sites. I also don't drive over debris near construction sites. Funny how that works. :)
IZ, did you see this?? [cheeky]
^^ Oh that is just wrong!!! ^^
Actually it reminds of that old joke about why would you kick a man when he is down, well duh he is closer that way, sorry IZ, if it is an consolation I pulled six sheetmetal screws out of the wifes truck tires over a period of about a month. Never could figure out if they were doing construction at the hospital or she was having an affair with a construction worker so I check her tires all the time now ;D
Wow.
I certainly hope that the restaurant owner is not liable.
Take responsibility for your own actions and riding.
Quote from: jmoth79 on May 31, 2008, 03:54:29 PM
I am hoping that the owner of the parking lot is liable and will take care of the damages to my bike.
Quote from: jmoth79 on June 01, 2008, 08:43:07 AM
I'm not looking to make money off of this situation and I am by no means an opportunist
Looks like you dropped your bike and are looking for someone else to pick up the bill. I do understand you're also saying you're not looking for "pain and suffering" type cash, but that's just a matter of the degree to which you want to make someone else responsible for your action.
If you dumped it sliding on gravel in your buddy's driveway would you expect him to pay for your mirror, etc? As was said, big difference between what you could do and what you should (IMHO) do, but in the end it's your call.
i think bro wanted some advice and he's gotten plenty.. there's nothing wrong with wanting your bike fixed and being upset about it being hurt.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 01, 2008, 06:20:56 PM
i think bro wanted some advice and he's gotten plenty.. there's nothing wrong with wanting your bike fixed and being upset about it being hurt.
+1, doesn't hurt to ask.