Hi All,
As per my previous post i have a S2r 800. Apart from the usual beginner mods i really haven't done too much yet (rear hugger, Arrow full system, Eagle Screen). Before i tackle the list of aesthetic mods (belt covers, levers, mirrors etc) i have put some $$$ towards suspension/brake upgrades hoping to improve the overall package. I have the suspension sorted but have a few questions on front brakes for the more technical minded. My research indicates:
- The 'gold line brake upgrade' is simply the front brakes of a S2r1000 painted gold, so as such a used 1000 frontend should simply bolt straight onto the 800 - does anyone have any insights?
- Are the S2r1000 front brakes the same as the ST2/3/4 or anything else?
- Will i need to replace the master cylinder?
- Am i on the right path?
Appreciate your thoughts, comments & insights (technical, opinion or otherwise)
Cheers, B
Hey Brett,
Betty had a very nice upgrade to the brakes on the front end of his S2R 800.
He could give you some excellent knowledge as to what he had done.
As far as I know the S2R 800 front brakes are 2 pot calipers and the Gold Lines are 4 pot but
Goldfish might also be able to help you out there.
I myself am more of bling king and am not terribly technical in many matters.
Suspension and brakes are a great place to spend $$$ though
Technically minded ... maybe, but not mechanically minded [laugh]
Sorry, I'm stretched for time at the moment ... I'll get back to you later today.
I've replaced the std 300mm two piston front brakes on my S2R 800 with a set of Gold 4 piston brakes & 320mm disks and it's easy.
If you look closely you'll note the 800 uses a set of spacers between the forks and calipers to make the factory set up work.
What you need:
Qty 2 late model 2 or 4 pad calipers (65mm bolt spacing from memory)
Qty 2 320mm late model discs (from memory 10mm offset, 5mm thick)
Qty 1 brake line set of late model bike, and
Brake fluid.
All you do now is remove existing parts, fit new parts without spacer and bleed your brakes. The std master works fine but I guess if you haven't replaced your levers yet you could replace both clutch and brake masters, but at a cost.
I was able to obtain the calipers from this site at about US $200 (used) and got a set of Metal Gear discs from my local bike shop (or you could lash out and get some fancy wavy full floating discs). I had a local brake specialist make up a set of brake lines as the original calipers had a different attachment point (middle of caliper) and although the original fitted OK you need to reverse them and that causes chaffing on the front guard.
So easy to do but parts can be expensive.
You can just replace the front forks with a set of a S2R 1000 but I thinking that would cost a mint as well.
Let me know if you need anything more.
Cheers
Quote from: Betty on March 22, 2010, 10:01:02 AM
Technically minded ... maybe, but not mechanically minded [laugh]
Sorry, I'm stretched for time at the moment ... I'll get back to you later today.
OK I have decided on maniacally minded ... I had typed up a reply but MonsterDorf has beaten me to it. His reply is much more concise and although there is a lot of duplication I will post my anyway (below).
I will only discuss the front brakes as I assume that is what you are after, the rear can be treated separately … and changes to pads, master cylinder, lines and disks can all probably be done as you see fit.
Anyway, back to the front … yes, I have upgraded the brakes on my S2R 800. The stock brakes are the cute little 2 piston calipers with 300mm disks. As the calipers are smaller than the 4 pistons found on many other bikes (such as the S2R 1000) there is also a bracket which attaches to the fork leg mounts. The bracket brings the caliper closer to the centre of the bike and as such the disks have no (discernible) offset.
So an upgrade of the brakes will require a change of calliper and a change of disks, the new disks are 320mm (usually) and I believe (although I have seen it described differently) have a 10mm offset from memory. The change in calipers also brings with it another problem in that the bake lines are now fixed at a different point and angle … so this means new lines as well.
Master cylinders on the S2R 800 are incorporated into the reservoirs - you may think this is minimalist or you may think they are horrible â€" but the master cylinder is sized according to the calipers. So, you may also wish to upgrade the master cylinder â€" an upgrade to the master cylinder may, but necessarily, involve remote reservoirs (these may be considered an eye sore or a further opportunity for bling). Of course, depending on your level of anal retentiveness such upgrades may also require changes to clutch master cylinder and clutch lines.
Anyway we are now at about the point of the DP upgrade. From what I remember of CairnsDuc’s upgrade these are probably no longer available from Ducati … but you never know. The kit should have come with the gold line calipers (4 piston, 2 pad) which were commonly found on Monsters, the 320 mm disks with the appropriate offset, new brake lines to suit and a slightly larger ‘coffin-style’ master cylinder which has a slightly bigger diameter. This kit should bring you up to the specs of the earlier M800 (amongst others).
So this is where decision time comes, what do you do? You are not limited to trying to replicate the DP pack, you can do other things, including:
• Change pads and see if that is enough for you
• Change master cylinders and see if that is enough for you
• Change brake lines (apparently steel braid is not all its cracked up to be and it is the quality of the ‘inner’ which determines performance)
• You may be able to upgrade the disks, but I don’t know if there are any available that would be an improvement for the stock ones whilst keeping the 300 size
So all of those options involve upgrading parts to improve the system, but not a change in system … so, with the possible exception of the master cylinder upgrade will more than likely be redundant if they do not meet your needs.
Once you start to change calipers, there is no turning back. You can build up a kit from scratch using new or second hand parts and that will be determined by your comfort level with second hand brake components and the amount of money you are willing to spend. It may be a bit late to mention this but a decent option may actually be to trade in the bike for one which already has the brakes you want … such as an S2R 1000 (bigger brakes, bigger engine, adjustable forks and a dry clutch).
If you change calipers you are looking for something with 65mm bolt spacing, these will go straight on (without the existing bracket) and you can get 4 piston, 2 pad or 4 piston, 4 pad) but will require changes to disks and lines as mentioned above. Both of these will provide more braking but you will be pulling the lever a lot further with the stock master cylinder. Depending on your riding style/ability this may not be a bad thing but it is even more critical to remove any air from the system. You will have more lever travel as you need to fill twice as many cylinders with fluid now. It gives a more gradual feel to your brake application … but this may be what you are trying to avoid.
So depending on what you want, how much you want and when you want it you may be able to stagger your upgrade. Simple solution is to rip the entire brake system off an S2R 1000 and throw it on your bike as suggested … relatively simple, you just need to find one.
Or you could always go a bit overboard and change the whole front end … billet triple clamps, those big mother Marzocchi or Ohlins forks, radial mono-bloc calipers, with ceramic matrix disks, etc, etc … but you will be spending more than your bike is worth in all likelihood.
I have probably confused the crap out of you, so feel free to ask any questions … I don’t really know what I am talking about, but I will try to help. Good luck, let us know how you are getting on.
… and my reputation for crapping on is maintained …
Gooooooooo Betty. [thumbsup] [laugh] [cheeky] [clap]
Just throwing in a bit more info about offset.
The discs are often described as 10mm offset, but aren't.
It's not important, because the common description is 10mm and that is understandable for most of us.
Offset is a strange story. The rotors I used are the ones commonly referred to as "10mm offset", but they are not actually 10mm. They are 5mm, 7mm, 9mm or 11mm depending on how they are measured.
5mm - on a table, outside up, measured from table to inside of rotor
7mm - as above, but measured to the middle of the 4mm thick rotor. This is how Brembo does it.
9mm - as above, but measured to the outside of the rotor
11mm - as above, but including the buttons
This is from another thread
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=29213.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=29213.0)
Did somebody mention anal retentiveness [cheeky] ;D
I think the way I got my head around it (and my memory is getting pretty bad) was:
. head out to garage
. measure distance between my old (300 rotors) on the bike
. measure distance bewteen Jukie's 320 rotors (on the bike)
. realise the difference was about 10mm
. go back to reading stuff I still don't understand on the forum
Quote from: Betty on March 22, 2010, 02:31:07 PM
Did somebody mention anal retentiveness [cheeky] ;D
..............
It's a very tight opening, that's all I know ;D
For the OP: if you get all the parts from an S2R 1000, it will be easier than what we make it sound.
In fact, that will be a bolt on/no hassle solution, provided the parts are in good condition.
Quote from: stopintime on March 22, 2010, 02:41:11 PM
It's a very tight opening, that's all I know ;D
For the OP: if you get all the parts from an S2R 1000, it will be easier than what we make it sound.
In fact, that will be a bolt on/no hassle solution, provided the parts are in good condition.
Or from an early (03-04??) M620, any M800 or any M1000
Quote from: goldFiSh on March 23, 2010, 01:14:09 AM
Or from an early (03-04??) M620, any M800 or any M1000
620 started in '02 with the Goldlines.
The 620 and 800 should come with the coffin reservoir/master. The bigger bikes will have the remote reservoir and thus I think you will need to make sure you have the levers to match the different master. Is that right?
So if you are getting the parts ... get ALL the parts ... or know which aftermarket bits you are also shopping for.
Love it, cheers for your help guys...
So the plan at this point will be a gradual acquisition of the required parts. I am pretty certain i can pickup a lever/master off a M800 in the next few days. I will do the rounds for the calipers off an S2r1000 (as i prefer the black look & the eBay stuff looks a little scary), new brake lines & will figure out the rotors when i get to that bridge.
I did consider the 1000 when i picked this one up but it just didn't turn out that way. Now that i have the suspension sorted i will sort the front brakes eventually. Not that i ride that hard, i am simply used to something a little stronger (last bike = SP1).
Again thanks for your detailed responses.
B
I put the Goldline kit on my S2R 800, Made a truly massive amount of difference to the bike.
Here's a link to the topic and Pics
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=24695.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=24695.0)
It's just the Calipers, Discs, Lines and Master cylinder from the S2R 1000 (I compared all the parts side
by side while working for a Ducati dealer) The only real difference is the Gold colouring on the Calipers.
Was a very easy job to do.
the rotors are easy to come by, 320mm with the 6 bolt pattern ducati are all the same offset so you shouldn't get hung up too much on the measurements, you don't want the narrow band ones though, the snowflake type ones are stainless with alloy carriers and are renowned for warping, i'd buy a set of braking rotors, they're reasonably priced, work very well and come with black carriers. as for calipers, if you look hard enough you can get the 4 pad type from 998r all 999 etc from sydney metro bike wreckers for example, or e-bay. i got mine genuine and they came with pads, hoses, crush washers etc.
paul.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PINZE-FRENO-ANT-CALIPERS-BREMBO-ORO-x-DUCATI-INT-65_W0QQitemZ270551705553QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRicambi_e_Accessori_Moto?hash=item3efe2367d1#ht_1260wt_1167 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PINZE-FRENO-ANT-CALIPERS-BREMBO-ORO-x-DUCATI-INT-65_W0QQitemZ270551705553QQcmdZViewItemQQptZRicambi_e_Accessori_Moto?hash=item3efe2367d1#ht_1260wt_1167)
these are the snowflake ones that warp often, posted the link so you could see what they look like.
paul.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-748-996-998-S4R-BREMBO-FRONT-BRAKE-ROTORS-DISKS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27ae7e4085QQitemZ170431234181QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_2204wt_941 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DUCATI-748-996-998-S4R-BREMBO-FRONT-BRAKE-ROTORS-DISKS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem27ae7e4085QQitemZ170431234181QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_2204wt_941)
i have these 4 pad calipers, they are AWESOME! and these are the cheapest i've seen.
http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1677 (http://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1677)
paul.
OK... Cheers again for all of your help below guys. I have managed to get my hands on a set of s2r1000 low mileage calipers & am currently eyeing off a mew master:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110510222278&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110510222278&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)
although at this point i am unsure if they will fit (still waiting for part numbers). As for rotors, i will keep an eye out as 2nd hand (even low mileage) brake parts make me a little nervous.
I will post some pics/details eventually
i was looking at madalfs bike (i think) recently and it had a 15mm master cyl - the number is stamped under the lever pivot boss - which is the same as some of the 748R had for instance. so i don't think i'd bother with the master change, not initially anyway. most 4 pot bikes have 16mm masters, and the later radial style are 19mm i think.
as paul says, any 320mm disc with 6 bolts from 1989 onward excepting 748R will work just fine. some yamaha fzr/yzf used the same discs too.
those af1 calipers are cheap for new, and af1 are very good to deal with. they're great calipers.
Quote from: brad black on April 05, 2010, 02:10:56 AM
as paul says, any 320mm disc with 6 bolts from 1989 onward excepting 748R will work just fine. some yamaha fzr/yzf used the same discs too.
Little bit of thread dig here :)
concerning the 748r rotors, is the only difference the offset? if the 748r rotors are 15mm offset and std late model monster being 10mm, i propose i could use some 748r rotors to complete my sbk fork conversion without spacers....
does this sound plausible or is there simething like the width of the friction area of the disc that also changes from these models?
and yes i understand 748r rotors wouldnt exactly be easy pickings at the local wreakers but i have sourced a new 2nd hand set for the right price.
Cheers Clint