This is a slightly angsty issue, i think i'm looking for reassurance that the guys on the other side had their reasons, or they're just human, or.. something. something reassuring? and if not then please help me not be a total nutbag, and be productive & positive.
short version: i think writing this has helped. i want to like and trust them because i felt they treated me well considering i was a dork who did not storage-proof her bike. they were friendly to my face and would NOT have put me on the road if they'd thought i'd be hurt.
tl;dr version: only burden yourself with this text if you want to maybe smack me, disagree, agree or give advice. i will accept mechanical and attitude-adjustment advice. [thumbsup]
i didn't ride for about 18 months. i knew i had to have the bike serviced-up or it would be terribly unsafe. i'm not mechanically skilled for any purpose beyond cleaning without damaging or tightening what i loosen (no torque wrench though, footpounds whuzzat?)
i had the bike towed in to a reputable local place and they kept it for two weeks. their mission, from me: install frame sliders, do a kickstand kill-switch bypass, safety check a bike that has not been ridden for 18 months. yes, they knew how long it had been out of service, but i didn't say things in specific - was that the problem? they seemed to understand 18 months, safety check, make rideable. also i did mention oil but not "change oil", i thought fluid checks would be part of bringing an 18 month sitting bike to running order.
because i didn't know going in what type of slider i'd be getting (yes, REALLY) i'd asked if the sliders we were talking about screw into the frame or pass through replacing the long pass-through bolt. i've seen instructions and assembly pics that replace the engine mounting bolt, but i've also seen some weird stuff like stubby screws into some sort of cored piece. we talked at the counter about long sticks vs mushrooms, and i agreed on the speedymoto ones. i'm told no, these screw in, don't replace the mounting bolt. (THEN what do i know, a little internet research and while i have a real live mechanic talking i assume i should believe. NOW i believe that *all* sliders require knocking through/replacing the existing bolt! live and learn.)
anyway, i think i want my stock bolt back as a back-fall part for if i decide to remove sliders. returning parts is common practice, no? like - that's my stock part, and not theirs to resell? (attitude check? :-X)
regarding the safety check - i'm still fuming and it's taken a week to get to where i can put it into words without totally un-productive pissyness. i really need to wrap my head around these issues so not be an entitlement pregnant dog.
Oil: When i rode home from thursday pick-up, grins and giggles and 37 miles of going-out-of-my-way to extend a 12 mile trip, i park and walk around the bike grinning and that's it. i gear up friday and ride in to work, and i check the oil while parking because a friend wants to touch the Duc and will hold it upright for me. While i'm crouching down grinning.. woah.. uh, NO level visible? At lunch i walk to get oil and although i've got a 3.2 qt capacity i buy 2qt thinking that's too much but good to have an extra quart on hand. i warm the bike and let it sit for 5 minutes to settle, then adding oil with a helper holding the bike level. It took 1.5qt to get it between the lines. i'm completely freaked - half the capacity? i'd mentioned oil, even at pick-up, "Oil in, rubber good?" No charge for oil, so it's not that i didn't get what i'd paid for, besides the "safety"? :-\
Gas tank and possible internal fouling: i got fuel light on friday morning, no big as i figure i didn't store it with much fuel and if they were checking the tank for sediment or whatever, had to run it for a while, there's a dozen reasons gas level down and i'm fine with all of them. When i open the tank the lip is filthy and i spend a minute wiping the rim to make sure i don't knock anything into the tank. Right now i'm thinking that "housekeeping" is all on me, however this pretty much tells me they didn't even open this up and look. Is there internal fouling? Did they get it running and because it didn't hesitate or hitch they determined no lacquer or fungus had formed? :-[
So.. what else do i have to worry about? i just read about rubber belts sitting for too long getting slight kinks and choosing to snap there. sounds like changing out belts is something you want to do to a bike that has sat. did they look? doubt it. i wasn't charged for much mechanic's time, piddling charge, in fact. i was expecting $600 - $1000 to get this bike up into good condition... maybe walking out of there for under $400 should have been much more alarming.
Anyway.. i'm alarmed now, but trying to keep my cool. A week after a lot of reading about sliders and stored bikes i want to see if i need to have this machine looked at for anything additional and specific. ... i also want to spend ~$370 on a fairing/windscreen, and i need to help adjusting shifter lever location, do i give these guys another shot?
... they were so NICE. and my rational mind knows they do not professionally intend to endanger ANYONE, me included despite my rampant dumb.
NyAr! on the PLUS side - after friday there was memorial day weekend, no riding, kidnap by local friends for nefarious sitting-around purposes. Rode the bike in to work tues - thurs this week and oh-boy, it ran. [thumbsup] That was the reason i had it serviced, get it running. Success on that count! But did i ride it too eagerly on low oil, implications of that are bad?
Am i nuts? How do i not worry and do what the bike needs without adding stupidity to my next interaction? i can give up the bolt, having written this, because the future has bigger things in store and i need a relationship with a mechanic i trust. Do i owe them feedback that things that seemed basic were obviously left off service, when they knew the 18 month negligence of the bike, so that it doesn't happen again?
Cheers! [totally tl;dr, augh!]
Hi there, no I don't think you are stupid at all.
Quote from: m0t0g0th on June 01, 2008, 11:47:59 AMyes, they knew how long it had been out of service, but i didn't say things in specific - was that the problem?
IMO, you shouldn't have to specify, they should know what would be needed after long-term storage.
Quote from: m0t0g0th on June 01, 2008, 11:47:59 AManyway, i think i want my stock bolt back as a back-fall part for if i decide to remove sliders. returning parts is common practice, no? like - that's my stock part, and not theirs to resell? (attitude check? :-X)
I believe that legally, they are required to return your parts to you if you ask for them.
Quote from: m0t0g0th on June 01, 2008, 11:47:59 AMregarding the safety check - i'm still fuming and it's taken a week to get to where i can put it into words without totally un-productive pissyness.
IMO they were negligent for not checking basic things like oil (whether you had specified it or not), when you requested a safety check after long-term storage.
Quote from: m0t0g0th on June 01, 2008, 11:47:59 AMDo i owe them feedback that things that seemed basic were obviously left off service, when they knew the 18 month negligence of the bike, so that it doesn't happen again?
I would give them feedback, but it will probably happen again, so if I were you I would also look for another shop.
Where do you live? Maybe someone local to you can give some recommendations.
Also, you might try posting in the Tech section here, there are some experts that can tell you other things on your bike you might want to have checked out.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience, that sucks. >:(
P.S. I just noticed from your profile that you are in Berkeley. Care to share which shop you had this experience at? (You can PM me if you prefer.)
Most locals seem to like Nichols (Milpitas) or Desmoto (SF).
Wow. I would never darken that particular shop's doorstep again. If this happened because you're a "girl," then you need a shop that isn't trying to kill girls.
I was offered my parts back whenever I had some stuff done at BCM (I know, wrong coast for you). Those included a front sprocket, springs, exhaust canister, and later some broken parts they replaced. I can tell you that a nice yellow spring sitting horizontal on a counter makes for an interesting place to put mail and stuff. It's your parts, so the shop shouldn't care why you want them back. The only issue would be if there is a core charge or if a quote included their keeping a part for resale.
I expect basic fluid checks whenever I have any vehicle worked on. The Deere shop does it when they have my tractor, for goodness' sake!
Quote from: msincredible on June 01, 2008, 12:05:47 PM
Hi there, no I don't think you are stupid at all.
i will try not to alter this opinion in future! no guarantees though if you see me [moto] through town.
QuoteIMO, you shouldn't have to specify, they should know what would be needed after long-term storage.
That's what I was thinking, too. As a pilot with a neglected ride asking for help I didn't expect to have to explicitly call the shots.
QuoteI believe that legally, they are required to return your parts to you if you ask for them.
That's what i thought, i used to have a lot of things done on a Valiant and beater Firebird, anything swapped or upgraded was waiting in the backseat. In this case, i'll ask for the bolt, but a week out i'll have to see what their response is like.
QuoteIMO they were negligent for not checking basic things like oil (whether you had specified it or not), when you requested a safety check after long-term storage.
Ja, i'd left out tire pressure - sure that i'd asked them to check, now i'm not so sure. They didn't put a rubber valve cap on the front that i'd pocketed and lost long ago so - did they check or no. No guarantees i guess. I have a gauge (or three) but no hand pump in case i let out more air than sane while fumbling the gauge. That's my level of incompetence, and i know this; if a tire is perfect and i check it, now it's 3lbs down. [roll] Sad but true.
QuoteI would give them feedback, but it will probably happen again, so if I were you I would also look for another shop.
QuoteWhere do you live? Maybe someone local to you can give some recommendations.
That seems to be the prevailing wind. Dang.. Thanks for the reading and advising time!
i suspect, though, that based on the rep of the shop (Good, quite good, locally!) that i might do well to go back with a specific hit list and say "i am the freakish customer who wants your time, does not want to waste it, and wants to pay for it." - Because really, that's me. i'm not looking for mechanical freebies, and i'm not a team racer, i'm jane average.
QuoteAlso, you might try posting in the Tech section here, there are some experts that can tell you other things on your bike you might want to have checked out.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience, that sucks. >:(
Good advice too, i thought i'd sling this in here under the high-traffic zone to avoid letting lose some sort of drama-lama. It could be a loaded situation, i wanted to vet my thinking and see if i was able to communicate what i thought was wrong. Thanks again!
[/quote]
Here's my 2 cents:
1. Absolutely, go back to the shop and talk to them about it. As a small business owner myself, I MUCH prefer to have my unhappy customers talk to me first, before they go telling all the internet how upset they are. Usually it's something easily rectified, making for happiness all around.
2. You need to get over your "I don't know anything" helpless act and learn at least the basics about your bike so you can talk intelligently with your mechanic. If you don't specify what you want done, or at least ask them to specify it, then whether or not it happens is a crap shoot, and not necessarily the shop's fault. A better approach to your situation would have been to say, the bike's been sitting for a year and a half, I'm not experienced, what would you, the mechanic, recommend doing to it to get it up and running again? They'll list off a bunch of stuff, which you can then ask them to do, or not. What I'm reading is that you assumed they would do a bunch of stuff, and they didn't. Your version of a "safety check" isn't necessarily the same as theirs.
Additionally, I would strongly advise against taking the "I was mistreated because I am a girl" route. Given the Bay Area's rider culture, that seems highly unlikely. More likely, the shop assumed that you checked your own oil and tires, like a responsible rider would.
Take it back in, talk it over, ask for your bolt, and work out a list with them of what you'd like done to your bike. (Or not, if you decide not to work with this shop again.) But, DO talk to them.
And then [moto] safe! :)
Well, when I hear "safety check" I picture making sure the lights and horn work, and that there aren't any obvious loose bolts or wires, or excessive tire wear. I wouldn't assume that included replacement of fluids. So maybe they didn't understand what you wanted.
I second the recommendation to learn the basics of how the bike works. I don't do my own work, but I usually take a very specific written list of everything I want done to my mechanic, and ask them to point out to me any other potential issues they may find.
Somewhat off topic, that bypass of the sidestand kill switch? Not a good idea, in my opinion. My Monster came without one, and I've dumped it once, and almost dumped it a second time, because I forgot to put the sidestand up before riding. *smacks self on head*
If the bike's been sitting for 18 months, it would be a good idea also to have the brake fluid (and clutch fluid, if you've got it) replaced with fresh fluid. It does break down with time.
Quote from: duqette on June 02, 2008, 01:08:45 PM
Here's my 2 cents:
1. Absolutely, go back to the shop and talk to them about it. As a small business owner myself, I MUCH prefer to have my unhappy customers talk to me first, before they go telling all the internet how upset they are. Usually it's something easily rectified, making for happiness all around.
2. You need to get over your "I don't know anything" helpless act and learn at least the basics about your bike so you can talk intelligently with your mechanic. If you don't specify what you want done, or at least ask them to specify it, then whether or not it happens is a crap shoot, and not necessarily the shop's fault. A better approach to your situation would have been to say, the bike's been sitting for a year and a half, I'm not experienced, what would you, the mechanic, recommend doing to it to get it up and running again? They'll list off a bunch of stuff, which you can then ask them to do, or not. What I'm reading is that you assumed they would do a bunch of stuff, and they didn't. Your version of a "safety check" isn't necessarily the same as theirs.
Additionally, I would strongly advise against taking the "I was mistreated because I am a girl" route. Given the Bay Area's rider culture, that seems highly unlikely. More likely, the shop assumed that you checked your own oil and tires, like a responsible rider would.
Take it back in, talk it over, ask for your bolt, and work out a list with them of what you'd like done to your bike. (Or not, if you decide not to work with this shop again.) But, DO talk to them.
And then [moto] safe! :)
+1 Duquette. Nicely stated.
Goth,
There are so many thoughts voiced in your post, I found it a little hard to completely understand where your real frustration was stemming from. I think all in all, the situation is probably very easy to remedy. What may really be a hand is a simple miscommunication. You may want to take a moment to prioritize and organize what you really want to accomplish and just let the shop know.
BTW, you've got an Italian motorcycle that you are entrusting someone else to work on...chances are the way things get done aren't exactly the way you dream them. We've all been there...we all get frustrated at some point...we all learn and grow...or we just start turning the wrench ourselves in little baby steps.
Let's ride!
Quote from: duqette on June 02, 2008, 01:08:45 PM
2. You need to get over your "I don't know anything" helpless act and learn at least the basics about your bike so you can talk intelligently with your mechanic. If you don't specify what you want done, or at least ask them to specify it, then whether or not it happens is a crap shoot, and not necessarily the shop's fault.
The easiest way to do this would be to come to the next local wrench day that happens in the Bay Area (here: http://ducatimonsterworldwide.org/index.php?board=19.0). At least one certified Ducati tech is kicking around, along with a number of other idiots who build bikes from scratch.
We'll be happy to teach you anything you'd like to know.
I can't find any "wrench" day information on that link. When/where is it?
IMO, as a shop owner and mechanic:
There was a communication breakdown, and it wasn't your fault.
Perhaps your bike got handed to a tech without the relevant info, or maybe they just had a bad week.
Still, they didn't come up with the goods.
You'll need to judge whether you want to go back there or not.
Talking with them about what did and did not happen, and seeing how they respond, will pretty much answer that for you.
My customers vary, from folks like yourself, who don't have a lot of mechanical experience, to folks that would do the work themselves if they didn't live in an apartment.
It's my responsibility to try to figure out what the customer needs, if they don't know, or even if they think they do.
It's what they're paying me for....
You are legally entitled to whatever parts they take off, even if they're broken.
It's *your* property.
A bike that's been sitting for 18 months needs the following:
Oil and filter change.
Brake fluids refreshed and systems bled.
Brakes checked for proper function.
Cambelts replaced. See addendum below.
All electrical functions checked, lights, horn, signals, etc.
Battery recharged.
General mechanical functions checked; throttle operates freely, cables working, etc.
Tires checked and properly inflated.
Fuel drained, tank visually checked for rust, filter replaced, and new fuel added.
Test ride to confirm it's all working properly.
Take full advantage of what this board offers, beyond what you've done already.
The MOB folks are a very good bunch, and have quite a number of *very* knowledgeable riders who are willing to help.
That, and they're fun to ride with. ;D
Cambelts Addendum:
The official Ducati replacement interval is 2 years or 12k miles, whichever comes first.
This is a conservative approach, but it's the safe thing to do.
At *best*, a broken cambelt is a hassle and and expensive repair.
Folks often go beyond the 2yr/12k when riding the bike regularly, and don't have a failure.
It's like walking across a busy street without looking, and not getting run over.
It's possible, but it's not a good plan.
Quote from: Speeddog on June 03, 2008, 10:45:10 AM
IMO, as a shop owner and mechanic:
....
Wow, best response yet! [thumbsup]
Quote from: Speeddog on June 03, 2008, 10:45:10 AM
IMO, as a shop owner and mechanic:
That was great, thanks a bunch for your advice and the breakdown of requirements - i don't want to nickel & dime save and thereby go dollar dumb (or get hurt if there's a failure from something optional i didn't replace). So, ja, thanks very very much for posting as a pro.
I called the shop today and had a REALLY good call; for my part i am sorry i waited so long because maybe they were waiting to hear from me, but i'm Very Glad i waited until i'd come down from any emotional reaction-spike, had guidance from the board, and had a good rational mindset on my part. For their part - the shop lead was not just receptive but ready to help. Sounded like he understood my worry and overlooking the oil was unsettling from their perspective, too. I am ready to trust these guys, their response and reputation are really weighing in their favor - they're willing to help and i'm receptive to learning, and if i need a mechanic's time for the more in-depth re-conditioning fixes, i'm buying it.
And today 60mph felt like 90 so i really want to get a windscreen on. >_< i can't press to the tank any closer, my tits catch on the tankbag!
Thanks for everything! ... No more idle-time damage for my wheels.
Glad to hear everything went well with the call back to the shop, thanks for the update. [thumbsup]
Quote from: m0t0g0th on June 04, 2008, 08:52:37 PM
And today 60mph felt like 90 so i really want to get a windscreen on. >_< i can't press to the tank any closer, my tits catch on the tankbag!
Thanks for everything! ... No more idle-time damage for my wheels.
I don't use a windscreen, so can't comment on how much that will help or not, but my regular ride is the San Mateo bridge (much windier than the Bay Bridge, especially in the afternoons). I am so used to it now that I usually just zoom by completely upright, at speeds, well let's just say a bit faster than 60. [roll] (The rolling eyes is for me, not for you.)
Here's some general wind-riding tips:
- use earplugs
- try to keep your arms as relaxed as possible ("flap" them from time to time if you need to remind yourself)
- use your legs to squeeze the tank to hang on instead
- for crosswinds, the bike will naturally want to lean into the wind, best to just let it do its thing
- when doing head checks, duck your head instead of turning it to the side (almost like you are looking under your armpit)
- faired bikes are better for headwinds, naked bikes are better for crosswinds
- the more you do it the easier it gets, just go at a comfortable pace
Quote from: duqette on June 02, 2008, 01:08:45 PM
Here's my 2 cents:
1. Absolutely, go back to the shop and talk to them about it. As a small business owner myself, I MUCH prefer to have my unhappy customers talk to me first, before they go telling all the internet how upset they are. Usually it's something easily rectified, making for happiness all around.
i knew i'd be talking to them, but wanted to bounce this off people instead of running in with my own confusion *and* emotional investment as some kind of baggage. there's no talking motors at home, the mate has never had a license to drive anything, and i'm the one who came to the relationship with power tools. and i can be a TOTAL asshole when i talk before thinking.
Quote2. You need to get over your "I don't know anything" helpless act and learn at least the basics about your bike so you can talk intelligently with your mechanic. If you don't specify what you want done, or at least ask them to specify it, then whether or not it happens is a crap shoot, and not necessarily the shop's fault.
there's a bunch here so i'll break it up: it's not an act, i know something but i'm not going to go into a pro's house and pretend i know exactly what's going on - and that leads to what i *did* do going in, and what i expected.
QuoteA better approach to your situation would have been to say, the bike's been sitting for a year and a half, I'm not experienced, what would you, the mechanic, recommend doing to it to get it up and running again? They'll list off a bunch of stuff, which you can then ask them to do, or not.
that was information i was expecting in a phone call a couple days after drop off - they said they'd look it over, get it started, and let me know what it needed after that. never got that call. when i called the report was the battery took charge and didn't need replacing, and it needed a test ride, be ready soon. so i figured they were on it but it hadn't been looked at yet in any detail.
QuoteWhat I'm reading is that you assumed they would do a bunch of stuff, and they didn't. Your version of a "safety check" isn't necessarily the same as theirs.
well, i wasn't assuming anything would be done - i definitely assumed they'd tell me what it needed. i don't think fluids are free, and i know customers flip if provided services before they agree to pay, but no laundry list was forthcoming. i was puzzled, but passive, pretty much assuming it was in good hands and i'd find out if i had to approve anything. but i did the follow up call and it was ready to pick up. buzzuh? cool, at least i wasn't getting grief for letting it sit..
QuoteAdditionally, I would strongly advise against taking the "I was mistreated because I am a girl" route. Given the Bay Area's rider culture, that seems highly unlikely. More likely, the shop assumed that you checked your own oil and tires, like a responsible rider would.
i'm not a cupcake, i'm pretty damn frisky but i am *really* ashamed of the neglect. i don't think i was mistreated because i was a girl, but i think my bikes potential problems were forgotten as i was a way too passive, non-demanding customer who didn't - yup, big mistake - come in with a list and ask for specific services up front.
oil and tires? maybe yes, maybe no, but the bike was towed in so... if they knew i intended to pick it up and ride away? when they didn't tell me "this is low and that is low and the other is okay" i was McPuzzled - but i know i'd been an idiot and didn't press. which, now? [bang] yeah, that's on me 100%.
QuoteTake it back in, talk it over, ask for your bolt, and work out a list with them of what you'd like done to your bike. (Or not, if you decide not to work with this shop again.) But, DO talk to them.
And then [moto] safe! :)
danke! you're honest, and i thought kinda harsh but then no, you're right and you're just saying it like it is. i don't go for a lot of sob stories- but i was really conflicted earlier about this.
but seriously, if i ever hear "Stupid Girl" again i'm going to bite through the damn CD..
i had a couple cute little girls hanging on our garage gate this afternoon when i came home, dismounted and unpacked, they asked if it was mine, then told me all kinds of stuff about their friend afraid to come over because it was a motorcycle. someone was calling them out to the quad and one of them yelled back "[We're talking to the] Señora!" - which got a couple OTHER kids peeking around the corner :o which was quite cool.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: ro-monster on June 02, 2008, 02:18:28 PM
Well, when I hear "safety check" I picture making sure the lights and horn work, and that there aren't any obvious loose bolts or wires, or excessive tire wear. I wouldn't assume that included replacement of fluids. So maybe they didn't understand what you wanted.
re-read, i did NOT expect everything topped off like some 50's gas station, but if you think that letting a bike out of a shop with zero oil visible in the port and at half the capacity is OK - i'd like to find out who your regular mechanic is so i can avoid them.
i *was* expecting that a "safety check" meant they'd tell me if i needed anything. Oil is so make the beast with two backsing basic, right? if they didn't look at that they looked at nothing else.
QuoteSomewhat off topic, that bypass of the sidestand kill switch? Not a good idea, in my opinion. My Monster came without one, and I've dumped it once, and almost dumped it a second time, because I forgot to put the sidestand up before riding. *smacks self on head*
sorry to hear you couldn't get the hang of the kill switch bypass. i've only ridden bikes that HAD them, so this is a reversal for me and it's part of my programming to ride with it; breaking lifetime patterns is tough, so i'll stick with the system i'm comfortable with.
and this is me "sleeping on it" and not going with that first emotional reaction. i knew it was a good idea.
Quote from: m0t0g0th on June 05, 2008, 07:50:31 AM
sorry to hear you couldn't get the hang of the kill switch bypass.
I doubt if skill, or lack of it, had anything to do with Ro-monster's advice. I'm sure she is well capable of mastering anything she puts her mind to. I think her intent was to simply alert you of a safety issue.
Quote from: someguy on June 03, 2008, 12:16:43 AM
At least one certified Ducati tech is kicking around, along with a number of other idiots who build bikes from scratch.
Duckwrench13 is a Ducati mechanic who is always happy to offer help and advice to the crowd here. PM him with your story.
Quote from: ro-monster on June 02, 2008, 02:18:28 PM
Somewhat off topic, that bypass of the sidestand kill switch? Not a good idea, in my opinion. My Monster came without one, and I've dumped it once, and almost dumped it a second time, because I forgot to put the sidestand up before riding. *smacks self on head*
**snip**
If the bike's been sitting for 18 months, it would be a good idea also to have the brake fluid (and clutch fluid, if you've got it) replaced with fresh fluid. It does break down with time.
I've dropped my bike 3 times. The first was my neighbor knocking it over as I was walking in my door. The second was a sidestand bypass issue, but not quite, although if I had a kill switch, it would have saved me this this time. I was starting my Monster while off the bike. It was, of course, in first. It might not have gone over, but at that time I had a suicide sidestand. I DOVE under my bike and suffered a bruise or two, which healed quickly. My bike suffered zero damage. The third drop was a parking lot drop at a standstill. D'OH! Forgetting to do something happens to all of us. For some, it's forgetting to break that stare at an object that is coming closer and closer (target fixation) and it causes a major crash. For others, it's minor stupidity that causes minor grief for now, but major laughs later. I don't think that anyone would call taking off with a sidestand down lacking in the mastery of a skill.
The second part of this is very good advice. Clutch fluid and brake fluid are the same thing and need to be bled periodically. Brake fluid is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs water very quickly from the atmosphere. Brake fluid has low compressibility (very good for hydraulic applications, like brakes and clutches) and a very high boiling point. When water is introduced, it increases its compressibility and lowers the boiling point. Your brakes will feel increasingly "spongy" and if you do tons and tons of hard braking (like at the track), you'll actually end up losing all braking ability entirely. Ideally, clutches and brakes would be closed systems, but we all know there is no such thing. There will be a certain amount of leakage and over time the fluid will become less and less effective.
If there are basic points you want covered in a service, you really need to delineate them. I have found out the hard way that one person's interpretation is often different from mine. So rather than get mad at a shop for goobering something, I chalk it up to my own inexperience and inattention to detail.
My only experience in this area is that I brought in my bike and said "make it run". I had already replaced the starter solenoid and was frustrated to hell. It turned out I also had a bad battery at this point. I didn't know this. I was brand new to working on bikes. So not knowing what the issue was, they had me sign a $250 labor estimate just to be able to run some basic diagnostics. So the first place they checked was the battery, which couldn't tolerate a load. So one new battery later, and the bike was fine. So when I picked up my bike, I was wondering what kind of battery installation costs $250. Well, they winterized my bike for me. HUH? ??? I had signed that estimate, so they were going to use the money. IT WAS THE END OF SEPFORKINGTEMBER. Yes, it was shady, but it was my own damned fault for letting them take advantage of me. I was the one who signed. Nobody was holding a gun to my head.
Now I do almost all my own work. If something is over my head (has only happened once since that debacle) I have one mechanic I trust. I ask to inspect the old parts and ask that oral authorization be obtained for every expense. I do this mostly just so I learn everything I can, but it's also just a good practice in general.
today was a frikken AWESOME day~
[thumbsup]
Ducatista, you did nothing wrong, you signed an estimate for them to get your bike running, not dream up ways to spend your money.
IMO, your local Bureau of Automotive Repair would use the term 'illegal' instead of 'shady'.