To start with, either you know or have reason to know that I love aftermarket parts, the technology of Ducati products and the technology of the aftermarket parts. With that said, I'd kind of like to address the topic of cost and DP systems. There's a few misconceptions goin on.
Cost vs. Performance & Full Systems
Back in the days of yore, a person could "make" their own DP system for a competitive price. Purchase a full exhaust system, that is headers & pipes; acquire an open airbox lid and high flow filter, and reject the carbs with a Factory Pro or other jet kit. The cost, though, was not that much less than a DP full system.
For example, let's look at ol' JV's M900. The cost of DP pipes at the time were around 900. My Ex Box was around the same price and had a comparitive flow to slipons, not a full system. My NCR Titanium pipes retailed for around a grand as well, and could be had "on sale" for awhile for around 750-850, though it has now been discontinued and prices have dropped. Sil equal-length headers cost at or over 1000. That puts pipes alone at a price tag at or around $1,750-$2,000. Throw on a performance filter and Ferracci airbox ring (or other), and you are up to $250. Sure you could cut your stock airbox lid and buy a filter and net a cost of only $100, but then you've got a backyard-look to it potentially.
So for at or around $2,000-$2,250, you have a well flowing but extremely lean bike. Time to richen it up - jet kit, that's at or over $200 with installation and tuning. Sheesh, that gets us to $2,500 without any Ducati Performance parts! Lets hope it performs better than before.
Now lets look at the options for "fuelies" - this is a different animal and the option for a DP system is actually more appealing than with the carbies. We'll call DP full system "Option 1" (1), I shall explain:
Simple slipons - most people mistakenly put these on for performance. These are not a performance addition - these are simply a better looking, better sounding pipe. The only quantifiable performance gain that can be had with slipons is a weight savings, which is always a good thing, especially on bikes where the pipes are quite high (like superbikes).
Looking at full systems, some interesting things happen when a set is bolted on alone. Dyno runs show on a stock 1*98, that an Arrow full system nets less hp on the same bike than the stock system. Why? Fueling. Most people throw in high flow filters to increase the flow further - but this increases the air/fuel ratio (a bad thing - 4 strokes do not respond to the ol' adage "the leaner the meaner").
So lets throw some numbers at this, I'll pick on Leo Vince today (no real reason, just easy to find some other #s).
Leo Vince's full system for 1*98 bikes retails for $1,750. What do you get? Just the exhaust. Time to buy high flow airfilter: ~80 bones. For even rounding, because you'll have to include shipping, let's round up $45 for easy math: Total for "flow" parts is $1875.
Now you have a motorcycle that is running dangerously lean, and is almost certainly putting out less power because of an unadjusted fuel system. There are various options for trying to richen up the mixture, many people believe that a Power Commander is a fair option (Option 2). Well, the latest Power Commander retails for $370, so we'll say $400 to your door, and that's with none of the accessories, which are beneficial for tuning (and tuning is necessary), both accessories sum to 680. That's approximately $1000 total. Without the accessories, your total price is approximately $2300 without proper tuning (good luck with that "downloaded" map, [roll] - one bike is not necessarily the same as another, especially with regards to climate, elevation, and varying build options). With the Power Commander accessories, you are at $2900! How much is tuning?
How's that DP system looking right now? Should be looking pretty good - its essentially a bolt on for "go" - nets a gain without any fiddling, and can be tuned further to squeeze every hp out of the dollars you've spent.
Remember, that tuning the shit out of your bike, if you burn a hole in your piston, or run it so hot things that are not heat shield melt or short, you'll be pretty screwed for warranty purposes - Magnusson-Moss won't protect you for engine damage where fueling has been altered as the two are directly related. No joke, no free plug, thank goodness for AMS in our area who does more warranty work than any other domestic Ducati shop - asking about # of bikes they do a year, they may very well do more than most other dealerships combined, i shit you not.
So part of that "DP cost" is a bit of piece of mind, right? I think that is easy to agree to - for many owners (lookin' at you, Daxicus) - you want to bolt on and go, you are not interested in constant fiddling. (I, on the other hand, find orgasmic joy in getting into motor stuff and seeing how things work and trying to get the most out of each component).
(3) I think its fair to look at, what I think is a better tuning option than the Power Commander. Enter the MicroTec ECU, here's a superior option for numerous reasons. I got to see the setup and learn a bit about it when I was at Mark's shop in Atlanta, DucShop - lots of tuning options, but at what cost? That's $1095 "on sale" from DucShop. That's a fully programmable unit, which brings us to our next question: Who's going to program it? At what cost? Is that convenient?
Tuning Option 4, might be the Nemesis ECU. Let's look at another good shop's price on this item: Commonwealth Motorsports sells the ECU for $999, and you need the mounting bracket, which is another $80. So it is roughly the same price as the MicroTec. Still needs some adjustments, of course - it doesn't know what the flow of your bike is, etc. See questions, above, wondering about tuning cost and convenience. There's a real issue with who is trained to work on these and get it right - sure, it can be learned but who's paying to teach a tech to learn some new system when the techs are also learning the newest Ducati systems and bike setups (hello, new MTS1200!)?
So, comparing with a full system, with ECU from Ducati Performance, the cost is only slightly more - considering what you get, and what you would have to get to have a comparable system. Tuning is available for the DP system, but you can "bolt-on" and go without the worries that are associated with self-tuning.
For the 696, 796, 1100 Monsters, the header pipes are interchangeable, you can run a pipe that is not "through-frame" if you don't like the aesthetic, 'skrat. The design was to set off the look of the Ducati from other manufacturers, and moving the pipe through the frame reduces the vertical "heft" of the motorcycle by condensing the shape. The smaller form factor also offers more ground clearance. I quite like the pipe, though it complicates belt changes quite a bit. If I had one, I may not change it to the "under-pipe" but I would consider ceramic coating it to keep the heat away from the motor and my leg. I'd also make damn sure not to let Jet-Hot send my shit with "signature required".
for some reason, my page kept "timing out" regardless of the internet connection I had on the 796 ride-report thread.
I know some FBers that smiled at the "signature required"
quip [thumbsup]
all I know is AMS has done me right in my book [moto]
bank book hurt some, but I chose Ducati, not Triumph
or rice burner.
Both my S4 and S2 run extremely well and have been mapped properly by the guy I trust for that stuff. The two of the three Ducs I bought had Termis so there's no arguing I "over" paid for the system. I got slip-ons for my 620 by Remus and it ran like a champ with no tuning needed.
For my money and my opinion the Termi build is crap. The welds look piss poor, finish on the carbon is lackluster and ultimately you can't find replacement parts unless you buy another full set (try buying it in pieces like I did, even calling and email Italy several times). I'm glad other manufacturers are giving them a run for their money because they need to step it up. Seriously, you pay nearly $3k for a system that looks 10 years old in less than a year? Put aside the performance gains for a bit of course. :'( But if we were to talk about that I just don't see spending that kind of MULA for an 8% or so increase.
That's my opinion albeit worthless to most but you opened the door - thanks for pushing me in retard. :-X
DISCLAIMER: I AINT NO MECHANIC OR GEAR HEAD!
This thread is too long, I got lost. What was this about again? [laugh]
Quote from: TresGatos on April 29, 2010, 05:49:53 PM
...
all I know is AMS has done me right in my book [moto]
bank book hurt some, but I chose Ducati, not Triumph
or rice burner.
Was that really necessary? I know I am a guest here, but... really...
[cheeky]
I agree... I have a garage full of rice burners that take offense! [laugh]
Quote from: fastwin on April 29, 2010, 07:04:25 PM
I agree... I have a garage full of rice burners that take offense! [laugh]
I rode my 98 Suzuki till it was stolen in 08.
If not I would still be on it and not know all yooz guyz.
I'm glad it was stolen thank you very much [moto]
I'll chip in here.
For my situation for the 848, the Full Termignoni kit was/is a no brainer for what you get. It sheds about what seems like 10lbs off the bike (lighter cans, removal of butterfly servo, etc) I have had mine tuned by AMS before and it still runs great, probably needs another tune as its been a few years now. The cited 8% gain may be a bit generous in my bike's case, but the improvement in the butt-dyno is there. 8% on top of the claimed power for my bike is pretty significant about 10hp + weight loss is sexy combo.
I may be wrong, but I do recall that Remus used to be a supplier for Ducati Performance exhausts. And the M620 was an open loop exhaust w/ no O2 sensors to deal with as the S*R series.
As with all the things moto related, the only opinion that matters about somebody's bike is their own. YMMV
I have scanned Amazon for the Cliff's Notes relating to this post. No luck. Guess I'll wait for the movie.
hedman tips= 20
kn air fltr= 80
fat duc= 90
pregnant dog runs like a scalded dog!! keep your 2000 dollar (insert exhaust name here) it's a waste of money! little engineering and some patience goes a long way.
btw my factory exhaust cans are stamped remus!
Quote from: bryant8 on April 29, 2010, 07:28:54 PM
I'll chip in here.
For my situation for the 848, the Full Termignoni kit was/is a no brainer for what you get. It sheds about what seems like 10lbs off the bike (lighter cans, removal of butterfly servo, etc) I have had mine tuned by AMS before and it still runs great, probably needs another tune as its been a few years now. The cited 8% gain may be a bit generous in my bike's case, but the improvement in the butt-dyno is there. 8% on top of the claimed power for my bike is pretty significant about 10hp + weight loss is sexy combo.
I may be wrong, but I do recall that Remus used to be a supplier for Ducati Performance exhausts. And the M620 was an open loop exhaust w/ no O2 sensors to deal with as the S*R series.
As with all the things moto related, the only opinion that matters about somebody's bike is their own. YMMV
Yes, Remus used to be a supplier for DP;
Quote from: muskrat on April 29, 2010, 06:43:57 PM
Both my S4 and S2 run extremely well and have been mapped properly by the guy I trust for that stuff. The two of the three Ducs I bought had Termis so there's no arguing I "over" paid for the system. I got slip-ons for my 620 by Remus and it ran like a champ with no tuning needed.
Those are slipons - reread my post. You don't need to tune shit because they don't DO shit. Its just a weightloss, look and sound factor. It ran great because you hadn't really changed anything of substance.
Quote from: muskrat on April 29, 2010, 06:43:57 PMSeriously, you pay nearly $3k for a [full] system that looks 10 years old in less than a year? Put aside the performance gains for a bit of course. :'( But if we were to talk about that I just don't see spending that kind of MULA for an 8% or so increase.
DISCLAIMER: I AINT NO MECHANIC OR GEAR HEAD!
I think you disclaimer is important to note for two reasons: Apples and Oranges - the $3k system is a full system. If you are in it for looks and sound, slip-ons is really about where you should stop. I understand that you personally do not like the udder, so a full system on the S*R series bikes was "necessary" for you.
However, a full system is about trying to extract more power out of the bike, period. Sure you get the looks and sounds too, but the goal is increased flow - that's why the latest crop use 70+mm piping, and equal length headers so each cylinder does the same work. Start looking at other full systems and the price is shockingly equivalent when necessary tuning is added on.
For your two beefs with the termi look, you've got carbon that just needs a simple clear coating and then it is fine, and then the welds. They look a hell of a lot better than Ducati welds, and both work just fine. If you really don't like, grab a grinder and smooth 'em out. The Termi welds are equal in looks to most of the welds on my Sil Headers.
Quote from: calscrazy on April 30, 2010, 03:50:40 AM
hedman tips= 20
kn air fltr= 80
fat duc= 90
pregnant dog runs like a scalded dog!! keep your 2000 dollar (insert exhaust name here) it's a waste of money! little engineering and some patience goes a long way.
btw my factory exhaust cans are stamped remus!
yours may be the most fun set of pipes i've heard yet. that, and boomtubes.
my S4R does not have slip-ons. I did replace the mid pipe but the headers are the stock ones. Does Termi make different headers because I know they do for the S4RS but not the S4R.
Do you really expect anyone to spend some $2k or so and then have to finish the product? NOT. And although I'm no gear head I will tell you, since you presumed, that the reason for the exhaust is power and that much I do know. I got lucky that both bikes had Termis otherwise I would have bought something to "extract" the power like you say, no matter the brand. Don't assume it's all about sound because for that I believe the Akra's sound better (and yes I know they don't make them for the S4). You're not the only one who wants more power from these bikes and Termis aren't the only choice thank God.
now address the part where you can't buy parts for Termis. But overall I agree with CalsCrazy on the money part. [popcorn]
I don't think the Akras sound better. They have a great shape for the streetfighter, but I don't think they sound very good at all. I'd rather have Competition Werks, looks better again and has a good sound.
But if you are spending the money on full system stuff, you are off your rocker if you think its "far too much money" for the DP kits for what you get, when you end up paying nearly the same $ to piece together a similar package.
Full Yoshimura 4-2-1 system with PC3r [evil]
Wait, this isn't Dan's rice-burner thread.... [cheeky]
hahaha.
Interestingly, on those 4-bangers, the equal length header is a much bigger deal than on a twin, especially a 2v twin...
Quote from: a m on April 30, 2010, 05:10:00 AM
I don't think the Akras sound better. They have a great shape for the streetfighter, but I don't think they sound very good at all. I'd rather have Competition Werks, looks better again and has a good sound.
But if you are spending the money on full system stuff, you are off your rocker if you think its "far too much money" for the DP kits for what you get, when you end up paying nearly the same $ to piece together a similar package.
I'll be camping at CalsCrazy home engineering my next exhaust instead. Just checked the rocker and still rocks just fine too.
i had a PC3 on my s2r and had a horrible experience start to finish with that thing
i've thought about buying a DP ecu for the S4R and just having AMS tune it... http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail (http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail)
I hear they don't like PC's. Or at least was told that about a year ago but think it was Scott. Something to do with voltage but someone else chime in.
You're right. Jeff hates them and I have no idea why. Starting with Scott and those before him (Brian Sharp, etc.) have all said Jeff doesn't like them but no one has ever said why. Weird. Must be personal. ;D I have them on three of my Jap SBKs and a PC5 waiting to be installed and mapped for the Busa. All have worked perfectly. Maybe it's a language barrier, PC doesn't speak Italian or Kiwi!! [laugh]
I thought it had something to do with the Magelli system which is one reason they've moved to Siemens. Again, someone chime in otherwise a rumor will begin to develop. [leo]
AMS most certainly does not like PCIII, and i'm totally fine with that; i can see why they wouldn't. i had it on an s2r, and it was just a mess... the first shop i took it to couldn't set up the maps for shit and the bike ran horrible... the second place set it up nicely (jim sabin), but then the unit was defective or something and was losing maps or didn't want to accept new maps for individual cylinders or something; he was having a tough time with it.
They do't like them because there is a big voltage difference in what the bike is doing there and what the PC3/5 wants. its a goofy setup at the best --> if you are going to go aftermarket, nut up and go Nemesis or MicroTec.
So if a person, was to say, get a Zard system - $1,750, and a Nemesis or Microtec - $1000, you are barking up the tree of the same cost as a DP kit.
Shop in Nashville had troubles getting PC's to work as advertised too - they could get "something" doin', but all parties ended up dissatisfied. Much like after a night with muskrat.
Bazinga!
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on April 30, 2010, 06:10:47 AM
i had a PC3 on my s2r and had a horrible experience start to finish with that thing
i've thought about buying a DP ecu for the S4R and just having AMS tune it... http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail (http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail)
Buying a DP ECU (or an ECU flashed with the DP maps - slip on or full) is pretty reasonable now. ECU's are around $4-500 (cheaper if you are patient and search), reflashing yours is around $300 (Ducati Depot, desmo porsche). While not as finely tune, they are good, safe maps, that get rid of the smog constrained factory tuning (disabling O2 sensors, flapper valves etc) and give a nice power bump. Unless you are racing, or racing dyno #s, they should get you what you need to enjoy the bike and your pipes of choice.
There are shops now that can also custom map the Duc ECU, but as with all custom mapping (PC, nemesis etc) your results are only as good as the tuner working the keyboard. The Magneti Marelli system is not a bad one, it just cannot meet the fine closed loop individual cylinder control needed for the tighter 09+ emission regs. For performance, it is fine.
Josh, don't cash that Termi commission check until I endorse it [thumbsup]
Quote from: webspoke on April 30, 2010, 07:48:14 AM
Buying a DP ECU (or an ECU flashed with the DP maps - slip on or full) is pretty reasonable now. ECU's are around $4-500 (cheaper if you are patient and search), reflashing yours is around $300 (Ducati Depot, desmo porsche). While not as finely tune, they are good, safe maps, that get rid of the smog constrained factory tuning (disabling O2 sensors, flapper valves etc) and give a nice power bump. Unless you are racing, or racing dyno #s, they should get you what you need to enjoy the bike and your pipes of choice.
There are shops now that can also custom map the Duc ECU, but as with all custom mapping (PC, nemesis etc) your results are only as good as the tuner working the keyboard. The Magneti Marelli system is not a bad one, it just cannot meet the fine closed loop individual cylinder control needed for the tighter 09+ emission regs. For performance, it is fine.
so, if i reflashed my stock ECU, would AMS still tune it? i would tend to think not... so at that point are you just basically reflashing it and having it sent back with a "pretty good" map based on what pipes/air box setup you have? if that's the case, it might be worth it to just get the DP ecu from a place like this: http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail (http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail) and i would think AMS would be okay with tuning it. i may still check into the reflash though; if it even gets me most of the way there i would be happy with that i suppose. what does dyno tuning even cost now at AMS?
Rich,
Gotham Cycles treated me real well in my one and only dealing with them. I bought a set of Marchesini 5 spoke take offs for my 916 from them off of ebay motors a couple of years ago. They even drop shipped them to AMS/D for me since the bike was there for work. The wheels were in perfect shape! Amazingly I was there when UPS dropped them off and Jeff and I unpacked them. They got the coveted Jeff Nash thumbs up!! They also stayed in touch via email the whole way through. I'd use them again in a heart beat! [thumbsup]
MY OPINION: about all slip-ons are gonna do is make the bike exhaust louder, more "manly". HP? Accidental and nominal.
Reality check: If you could have your bike supercharged for a 40% increase in power at half the cost of the pipes, but the exhausts had to remain vewy, vewy quiet... would you do it?
MY OPINION: the current crop of exhaust pipes are butt-ugly tin cans... look like somebody's 8th grade science project.
MY AMBITION: to find someone who will make a quality pipe for my ST3 in a long, slender megaphone with the reverse meg end cap... like the old Dunstall pipes. Not carbon, not chrome. There's a manufacturer not far from Moto Liberty that I'd like to talk with about such a project. I have the DP ECU, so lack of O2 sensor and adjustability s/b OK.
I'm guessing, but having some custom-made pipes right here in Dallas can't be much more expensive that them I-talian tin cans, especially figuring in freight and dealer profit.
Quote from: fastwin on April 30, 2010, 12:15:58 PM
Rich,
Gotham Cycles treated me real well in my one and only dealing with them. I bought a set of Marchesini 5 spoke take offs for my 916 from them off of ebay motors a couple of years ago. They even drop shipped them to AMS/D for me since the bike was there for work. The wheels were in perfect shape! Amazingly I was there when UPS dropped them off and Jeff and I unpacked them. They got the coveted Jeff Nash thumbs up!! They also stayed in touch via email the whole way through. I'd use them again in a heart beat! [thumbsup]
I use Gotham Cycles too! Great outfit!
if i were to go buy a new 848 or 1100s i would put a full system on it. if i put termi's on then i would go with a dp ecu anything else though i think a nemesis is the best in what i have read. i think there are enough people around here that are smart enough to help you with a nemesis (stuart, richd, louis, to name a few). not to mention the help from where you buy it and the numerous folks with superbikes that use them.
i find it funny how donnie at ducpond has no probs with pc's and other shops do. i can understand if you don't like them because you have trouble getting what you want out of them then just say it. when alan had his issues they fixed him right up w/o selling him a dp ecu. what kind of warranty do you get for the money spent on a dp ecu vs. the warranty and cost of a pc.
you have to understand air/fuel mixture and how it affects your bike. you can't just run something richer because you don't like the way it runs lean. there is a fine line you have to walk. we all look to get that 13.4/1. when you do it doesn't mean it's perfect. you then have to go check the idle to make sure you are still around 1100. so then you adjust the throttle bodies. and repeat the steps until you find what you want. it's a long and tedious process. it doesn't matter what exhaust or ecu you have. the key is to find the proper air/fuel. i spent two weeks working on fine tuning mine. ride to work, make an adjustment. ride home, make an adjustment. i finally have mine where i am happy with it. i still get some popping but it is few and far between and only when i am below 3000 rpm's.
btw josh if you like my exhaust come on the h/c trip and hear alan's! [thumbsup] [clap]
Quote from: calscrazy on April 30, 2010, 04:18:41 PM
btw josh if you like my exhaust come on the h/c trip and hear alan's! [thumbsup] [clap]
[evil]
I love the different exhausts systems (beit Arrows, Akrapovics, Zards, Termignoni, and of course custom)i they all have something to like. When it comes down to YOUR $$, it just depends on what facet you like better. I think the point that Josh is putting out there is the complete package that you can get with the Termis. You can of course build your own full system, but in the end you probably won't save much if any money.
As I said before, my situation for the 848 the Termi kit was a no brainer and made life easier to get what I wanted.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on April 30, 2010, 11:24:30 AM
so, if i reflashed my stock ECU, would AMS still tune it? i would tend to think not... so at that point are you just basically reflashing it and having it sent back with a "pretty good" map based on what pipes/air box setup you have? if that's the case, it might be worth it to just get the DP ecu from a place like this: http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail (http://www.gothamcycles.com/servlet/the-4034/DUCATI-MONSTER-S4R-VIRGIN/Detail) and i would think AMS would be okay with tuning it. i may still check into the reflash though; if it even gets me most of the way there i would be happy with that i suppose. what does dyno tuning even cost now at AMS?
I wouldn't think once on the dyno they would be able to tell that you had a flashed ECU, unless the look at the PN on the ECU itself. Dyno runs at AMS are at the shop rate/hour. The first time I had the 848 dyno-tuned it was 3 hours of work, but keep in mind that at that point (Feb '08, 3 months after the release of the bike) they probably hadn't tuned one yet with Full Termi.
yep - my point is $, power, convenience. the DP wins.
I've heard nice stuff of the Nemesis, but if I was going aftermarket, I kind of lean towards Microtec. Too bad I don't have the resources to get both and do a side-by-side comparison
Quote from: a m on April 29, 2010, 05:01:54 PM
addressing SOMEONE'S exhaust concerns...
Quit eating beans!!! [thumbsup] ;D
so i wonder if garbonzo beans sound better than pinto beans?
add a nervous moment and here it is
FARTING IDOL (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ7QmLd2eVg&feature=related#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
Oh my God! Where did you find that vid? [laugh] [laugh] My 13 year old will love seeing that! [clap]
YouTube
well, i will be trying something out to help with my lean condition... the bike should be back up by next weekend. after which, though, i'll need the assistance of someone with a VDST unit.
for Josh
http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=38395.0 (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=38395.0)
already saw it. there are a few decals vendors that have those in color if you are interested.
I know. I ordered two sets. One set for me and the other for you to adorn your helmet and..........your truck.
i do love me some stickers
Now that's funny!!! [laugh] Wish they could make a Ducati sticker look like that! [laugh] Maybe that's what Termi translates to in english!!! [cheeky]
got my flashed ECU in yesterday from desmo porche, but the rains hit after work. hopefully it will stay clear enough for me to try it out today and see how it's working. with any luck, i'll even be able to throw in a chopped airbox lid... but first things first.
Quote from: ♣ McKraut ♣ on May 18, 2010, 06:42:46 AM
got my flashed ECU in yesterday from desmo porche, but the rains hit after work. hopefully it will stay clear enough for me to try it out today and see how it's working. with any luck, i'll even be able to throw in a chopped airbox lid... but first things first.
The weather is nice. Let us know how it went
Bummer! I missed the beginning of this thread, can I still play? Ill piss in everyones cheerios... LOL!
The DP ECU is TOO rich, everywhere, across the board. It doesnt make power like a properly tuned Nemesis or Microtec will make. It shouldnt, its an OEM flash that THOUSANDS buy. Why chance it with a lean(er) air/fuel, or aggressive ignition map? IF DNA warranties DP parts, why would you risk blowing up an engine? Something that comes with a warranty IS NOT going to be radical. I get it. No problem there.
For ME, someone who KNOWS engine management and tuning as well as being a very competent engine calibrator, I need access to my ECU. Microtec is good, but its still new. Nemesis is good, but its older yet its proven.
I didnt like Ducshops answers to my questions- I need an airbox pressure offset/modifier. Its AlphaN, TPS vs RPM, its got no MAP sensor to offset your VE table or even modify the airmass table based off of outside forces! Ram air does dirty things to mixtures, and its a calibrators nightmare if not given the right tools to make it happen.
I have my own dyno. Ive tuned many a PCs, and you know what, its a pain in the ass. I wouldnt let just any tech touch a PC... if you dont spend the time with it, or know what you are doing, its Effed. period. Thats why some run well, and others dont. A good tune will do wonders.
Jeff likes DP stuff because it works. Its tried and true, and plug and play. Sure, theres something to be said about that, definitely.
However, didnt he try a nemesis not too long ago Marty? [popcorn] Its hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but show him to a new doggie bone pantry and he will change ;)
As for Termis quality? its production stuff. Its Mig welded, not Tig'ed. Akra stuff is Tig'ed. Its lighter, and prettier.
I built my own slip ons. Cory dubbed them the F1 pipes....
http://www.youtube.com/user/7223louigi#p/u/3/5ZDy89KXm0g (http://www.youtube.com/user/7223louigi#p/u/3/5ZDy89KXm0g)
It made more power, and sounds a lot better than stock.
For the track? Yea, shes all stock. way too much power for me as a beginner with a full termi setup ;)
In the end? You need to see what YOU want to do with the bike. whats important to you? What matters the most? Figure out the pros and cons, and decide for yourself whats best. Not every rider is the same, nor is every consumer going to have the same budget, standards or goals.
Louis
FYI, this is all related to SBK stuff, 1x98 family to be exact.
took it up the tollway last night en route to burgers and beers... and even when i was trying to get it to pop like it used to, i couldn't. there was an occasional pop here or there on decel, but i think once i get the exhaust tightly sealed up, it'll be perfect. and maybe it was some kind of placebo effect, but i felt like i could definitely notice better acceleration all-around. though i didn't test out the increased rev limit.
oh, and no more immobilizer [thumbsup]
Haha, very cool. Louis - I want to come play on your Dyno. I've got this tricked out 04 Malibu... (kidding).
I think another part to factor into the puzzle is that many buyers finance their bike purchase. Over the 60mo loan period, a full termi setup is less than an additional $20/mo. I think of it as a case of beer less on one weekend, and I've got the bike with the sound I like.
Your beer standards suck! Natural light is far cheaper [beer]
a buddy brought me the bud ice last night. cheap and ever so slightly stronger. Its no OE800, but it does the yob.