I'm a new rider, like 200 miles new, and I've read Twist of the wrist I and II and Total Control. I understand the concept of countersteering, but I'm not sure if I'm doing it or not. Taking off from a stop and going directly into a turn, turning the handlebars is fine, seems natural and safe/comfortable.
My question is this, when I'm cornering at speed, I lean onto the handlebar of the direction I want to go, my bike leans, and I go around the corner. What I don't understand is that for countersteering am I supposed to push on that handlebar hard enough to the point where it actually turns? The thought of turning the front wheel by muscling it around at speed absolutely terrifies me and seems completely unnatural.
I hope I explained my question clearly enough, thanks for any responses
get into a large parking lot with no obstacles and push on the INSIDE bar as you lean. you will lean quicker so be careful. that's countersteering. your outside hand should be light on the grip so you aren't pushing with it.
You just push on it enough to make the bike lean. On some bikes this is quite easy, on others it may feel like you have to muscle it a bit.
BTW countersteering works on a bicycle too, so if you have one, you can try it out on it, the principles are the same.
Get up to about 15-20 mph somewhere you can ride straight for a ways without traffic. Now push gently on one side and feel the bike want to lean and turn towards that side.
It's the exact same thing on the motorcycle except you usually have to push a bit harder.
If you're turning and your bike is moving faster than walking speed, you're countersteering.
countersteering is used to get the bike to initiate the turn once you are in the turn you will actually steer through the turn, shifting body weight/position goes hand in hand with countersteering.
if you are not shifting body weight or doing it correctly "getting crossed up" it will take a long time for it to click and feel natural.
Ducatis really don't like being muscled around, just sitting upright and forcing the bars didn't work for me.
make sure you don't get used to using your dominant arm to push and pull for opposite turns, i got into that in the beginning took a while to break that habit.
just my 2 cents
Thanks guys, sounds like I'm doing it a little bit, just the thought of actively turning the handlebars at speed is a little daunting. I'll try it in a parking lot. I'd sign up for some classes but I live in Germany at the moment so I don't know that much is available.
woah. where are you? I'm in kaiserslautern.
Quote from: Raux on June 22, 2010, 10:11:07 AM
woah. where are you? I'm in kaiserslautern.
Not really familiar with the geography here, but I'm in Illeshiem, about 2 and a half hours south of Frankfurt.
ok. yeah about 2 hrs from me. I'm straight west towards France.
You can take the MSF course on base and after that there is an intermediate course as well as a sport riders course. Talk to you local base safety or vehicle registration or license office.
also. pm me and I'll give you info how to contact me at work so we can talk while at work. this forum is block at my base.
I'll say it again: if your bike is turning, you're countersteering.
Go out on a quiet road and push gently on one of your bars. Note that your bike tries to turn toward the side that you pushed. That's countersteering. A parking lot is not the best place to investigate this, since at very low speeds (walking speed) other factors come into play and countersteering may not be what's going on.
You probably aren't very aware of all you do when turning, but the only way to turn a motorcycle at speed is to countersteer. It's well worth learning to think this way for emergencies (so you push on the correct side in a panic turn), but most of the time thinking about this stuff is just over-thinking.
I'm not sure what you mean by "actively turning the handlebars at speed." You either turn them or you don't. If you don't, the bike doesn't turn. If you're able to lean the bike, I promise you the handlebars are moving, even if only by a tiny bit. It usually only takes a very small amount.
There's nothing magical, mystical, or mysterious about countersteering.
Quote from: causeofkaos on June 22, 2010, 06:01:43 AM
If you are not shifting body weight or doing it correctly "getting crossed up" it will take a long time for it to click and feel natural.
Ducatis really don't like being muscled around, just sitting upright and forcing the bars didn't work for me.
I disagree with both of these sentences.
You don't need to shift your body weight even the tiniest bit to steer a bike aggressively. However, if you're not countersteering, moving all over the place will do very little to steer the bike.
And the four Ducatis that I've owned all needed more muscle for the steering inputs than the various Japanese bikes that I've had.
I would recommend reading
Total Control by Lee Parks. It has a full chapter on steering inputs along with exercises to make sure that you're providing proper steering inputs and not doing it wrong. That book helped me to better understand how various control inputs make the bike do different things.
Quote from: ScottRNelson on June 22, 2010, 01:21:11 PM
I would recommend reading Total Control by Lee Parks. It has a full chapter on steering inputs along with exercises to make sure that you're providing proper steering inputs and not doing it wrong. That book helped me to better understand how various control inputs make the bike do different things.
great book!
Quote from: ScottRNelson on June 22, 2010, 01:21:11 PMYou don't need to shift your body weight even the tiniest bit to steer a bike aggressively. However, if you're not countersteering, moving all over the place will do very little to steer the bike.
Actually, with regards to your second statement, if you have stiff arms (as many newbies do), then by moving your body you will accidentally move the bar and countersteer the bike. This is why some people think they can steer by leaning.
Quote from: somegirl on June 22, 2010, 01:40:29 PM
Actually, with regards to your second statement, if you have stiff arms (as many newbies do), then by moving your body you will accidentally move the bar and countersteer the bike. This is why some people think they can steer by leaning.
Actually, those people are countersteering, whether they realize it or not.
Quote from: ScottRNelson on June 22, 2010, 01:46:22 PM
Actually, those people are countersteering, whether they realize it or not.
Agreed!
Think I got it, thanks folks. The books made it sound more mysterious than it really is I guess, and I blew it out of proportion trying to over think it.
Quote from: xarlo on June 22, 2010, 02:18:26 PM
Think I got it, thanks folks. The books made it sound more mysterious than it really is I guess, and I blew it out of proportion trying to over think it.
Don't worry, it gets blown out of proportion by people with decades of experience on a regular basis. ;D
i find this video of keith code's "No BS Bike" to illustrate countersteering vs. leaning perfectly.
leaning won't get you jack shit by itself.
Keith Code's No BS Bike (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644#normal)
one thing that really helped me (and i'll let others correct me if what i'm saying is not correct from a technique standpoint) is learning to drop my inside elbow. in other words, in normal straightaway riding, my elbows would be slightly higher than the height of the bars. when turning, i found that if i dropped my elbows so that they are at the same height as the bars, it made it easier (more natural) to push forward on the grip (as opposed to leaning down on the grip, which i tended to do when my elbows were higher than the bar).
of course this may depend on how tall you are, height of your bars, etc. i'm 6' and didn't have any bar-risers on my first bike.
Quote from: ScottRNelson on June 22, 2010, 01:21:11 PM
You don't need to shift your body weight even the tiniest bit to steer a bike aggressively. However, if you're not countersteering, moving all over the place will do very little to steer the bike.
And the four Ducatis that I've owned all needed more muscle for the steering inputs than the various Japanese bikes that I've had.
shifting the body weight helped it all click together
for me, your right u dont have to move at all, especially in city street riding. Shifting body weight made counter steering more effortless
for me.
using "more muscle" and muscle-ing the bike around are 2 completely different things
i interpreted the OP as muscle-ing the bike not using more muscle.
everyone will develop a riding style that works best for them mine is far from perfect thats why i wasn't Rossi's replacement ;D
just raised my .02 cents to a nickel
Good that you asked the question,though.
A guy I know who was a new rider recently got himself into a corner too hot, realized he was going to crash unless he really cranked on the bars. The idea of countersteering was foreign to him so in a sheer panic he turned the bars in the direction he wanted the bike to go. Let's just say it was an expensive lesson he learned that day.
It just blows my mind that you have to think about it at all. If you've only been riding for...hell, even 5,000 miles, if your going so fast that countersteering is coming into play. SLOW DOWN!!! At a mild pace you dont even have to countersteer. Countersteering really comes into play when you are going through fast s turns where you are at an agressive lean angle and you have to change directions very quickly. When you countersteer it will pick the bike up out of the lean and getting going the other direction. Moral of the story, ride at your level and when it comes time that you are riding fast enough to countersteer you will do it naturally. Truth be told, I have never had to think about it, it just starts to happen naturally. Good luck, have fun, and be careful out there. [moto]
Quote from: Goduc on June 28, 2010, 09:55:09 AMif your going so fast that countersteering is coming into play. SLOW DOWN!!! At a mild pace you dont even have to countersteer.
Complete and utter balderdash!
Countersteering is the normal steering mechanism for motorcycles traveling at normal speeds. That is, any time you're going faster than a brisk walk, you're countersteering whether you like it or not.
My response to this claim is "If you're not countersteering, speed up! You'll never get there otherwise!"
Quote from: Goduc on June 28, 2010, 09:55:09 AM
if your going so fast that countersteering is coming into play. SLOW DOWN!!!
Truth be told, I have never had to think about it, it just starts to happen naturally.
Though it varies a bit from bike to bike - the point at which the gyroscopic forces on the wheels necessitates countersteering is quite low - like 10 mph. So saying that someone is going 'so fast' really doesn't work at all. Countersteering is a part of normal bike operation at all but the slowest speeds, and not just a high speed S or something similar and works regardless of lean angle.
For most folks it comes naturally, to a degree, or we'd have a lot more bike wrecks. But, naturally or no, understanding the mechanisms at work, and your part in them is is something to be encouraged. Contersteering came naturally to me too, but I still read about it, and still, after years of riding actively think about as an exercise to get better at it.
Quote from: Goduc on June 28, 2010, 09:55:09 AM
Moral of the story, ride at your level ... Good luck, have fun, and be careful out there. [moto]
This, I agree with [thumbsup]
Quote from: yuu on June 28, 2010, 11:12:17 AM
Though it varies a bit from bike to bike - the point at which the gyroscopic forces on the wheels necessitates countersteering is quite low - like 10 mph.
This is turning into the countersteering misinformation thread. :(
Gyroscopic forces have almost nothing to do with countersteering a motorcycle. You can put a ski on the front of a bike with no gyroscopic forces and it will still countersteer the same way.
Yeah... I got what I needed out of it more or less. Isn't something I need to worry about, just thought I was missing something by how much it is harped on in the books, when it turns out if you're turning the bike you're doing it. I've ridden pedal bikes forever, maybe it is harped on in twist of the wrist, total control, etc, for people that aren't used to two wheeled vehicles.
I think the books stress it because it can be subtle in everyday riding--subtle enough that some people probably don't realize they're doing it. If you don't understand what you're doing, it's hard to improve.
Quote from: Cider on June 28, 2010, 04:22:22 PM
I think the books stress it because it can be subtle in everyday riding--subtle enough that some people probably don't realize they're doing it.
Thank you, this is what I was trying to get across. Everyone countersteers, you just don't have to think about it until you are really using it to force the bike to something it doesn't want to do...go the other direction.
Quote from: ScottRNelson on June 28, 2010, 12:21:06 PM
This is turning into the countersteering misinformation thread. :(
Gyroscopic forces have almost nothing to do with countersteering a motorcycle. You can put a ski on the front of a bike with no gyroscopic forces and it will still countersteer the same way.
this one gets argues all over the internet and nobody ever agrees....but heavy wheels on a bike versus light wheels on a bke make a huge difference in how hard you have to push the bars. Why could that be other than gyroscopic issues? (I perfectly understand moving the wheel out and the center of gravity of the bike keeps going straight thus the bike leans and now...blah blah blah...) The arguments are always which causes the lean/turn versus heavy/light wheels lessoning the effort to do something that causes the turn. Who cares. Push right go right.
regardless....we all agree the bars do the steering...so...back to that... ;D
one big thing I see with new riders and countersteering, especially when in a corner too hot on the street...stiff-arming the bars. When you tense up you try to countersteer and YOU are blocking the movement and the bike goes straight. combine that with target fixating on the curb/tree/driveway and you run off wide. Keep those elbows bent and the bars move muuuuch easier.
Quote from: mstevens on June 22, 2010, 12:06:00 PM
I'll say it again: if your bike is turning, you're countersteering.
Go out on a quiet road and push gently on one of your bars. Note that your bike tries to turn toward the side that you pushed. That's countersteering. A parking lot is not the best place to investigate this, since at very low speeds (walking speed) other factors come into play and countersteering may not be what's going on.
You probably aren't very aware of all you do when turning, but the only way to turn a motorcycle at speed is to countersteer. It's well worth learning to think this way for emergencies (so you push on the correct side in a panic turn), but most of the time thinking about this stuff is just over-thinking.
I'm not sure what you mean by "actively turning the handlebars at speed." You either turn them or you don't. If you don't, the bike doesn't turn. If you're able to lean the bike, I promise you the handlebars are moving, even if only by a tiny bit. It usually only takes a very small amount.
There's nothing magical, mystical, or mysterious about countersteering.
^ This.
A bike cannot lean without countersteering. Keith Code has one of the best illustrations of this principle in the video for Twist of the Wrist 2. He attaches a rod to the handlebars, and points it backwards so you can see very fine steering inputs. On every corner, you can see the countersteering movements. They're not very pronounced, but they are always there.
Another illuminating segment is where he bolts a handlebar to the frame and has a rider try to turn the bike using only body movement. It doesn't turn much, at all.
I believe one of the previous posters linked to a youtube video of one of these, but it's blocked from my workplace :)
I second the recommendation: Go find a lonely straight road, go about 40mph, and gently push forward on the left/right side of the handlebars. See what happens. Push right, lean right, go right. I did this exercise early in my riding career and found it particularly helpful.
I think the "no BS bike" shows that handlebar inputs are important, but personally I don't think it proves countersteering (I don't think Code claims it does, though?). His bike doesn't show that "push right, turn left" fails; it just demonstrates that it's hard to turn a bike when you don't use the handlebars.
Interestingly enough, there are countless videos of people turning without using the handlebars, but I think they are still causing the bike to countersteer. BTW, didn't a member here post a video of his handlebars that showed countersteering?
Quote from: Cider on July 14, 2010, 11:27:08 AM
I think the "no BS bike" shows that handlebar inputs are important, but personally I don't think it proves countersteering (I don't think Code claims it does, though?). His bike doesn't show that "push right, turn left" fails; it just demonstrates that it's hard to turn a bike when you don't use the handlebars.
Interestingly enough, there are countless videos of people turning without using the handlebars, but I think they are still causing the bike to countersteer. BTW, didn't a member here post a video of his handlebars that showed countersteering?
dude, ever try to change lanes RIGHT NOW on the highway? you can not do it without cranking pretty hard on the bars. No amount of monkeying off the bike will turn you quickly (and back to be straight in the next lane).
You could ride all your life never leaning off the bike at all but just using the bars (goldwing or full dress tourer for example), and be very fast and accurate....but you will have a very short riding life without knowing how to countersteer with the bars. (and I mean the plural to everyone 'you' not you personally as clearly you have track time and can steer fast). ;D
show me any video of someone turning the bike hard and fast in control without bars.
Quote from: Statler on July 14, 2010, 05:33:06 PM
dude, ever try to change lanes RIGHT NOW on the highway? you can not do it without cranking pretty hard on the bars. No amount of monkeying off the bike will turn you quickly (and back to be straight in the next lane).
You could ride all your life never leaning off the bike at all but just using the bars (goldwing or full dress tourer for example), and be very fast and accurate....but you will have a very short riding life without knowing how to countersteer with the bars. (and I mean the plural to everyone 'you' not you personally as clearly you have track time and can steer fast). ;D
show me any video of someone turning the bike hard and fast in control without bars.
It sounds like you disagree with me (?), but I agree with everything you said. Bars are absolutely the most effective way to turn, and countersteering is how a bike turns (by "countersteering," I mean the wheel turns in the opposite direction of the turn).
I'm not aware of any videos that show somebody flicking a bike at high speed without using the handlebars, so I fail your challenge, but that doesn't mean you can't steer at all without the handlebars.
I misunderstood your prior post. Sorry. We're on th same page. [beer]
I can ride a bike with no handlebars.
Countersteering is not optional. You will benefit from practicing the concept, but it you have ridden a bike you have already countersteered intuitively. Understanding the direction of the front wheel is less important than understanding that, at speed, a bike needs two things to turn; lean angle and traction. Pushing the handlebar causes the bike to lean. If the tires have traction, the bike will turn.
If we countersteer intuitively why teach it and practice it? Steady, easy turning comes naturally, but changing direction quickly does not. Mastering the emergency lane change maneuver or correcting lean angle mid-turn are not intuitive. A competent motorcycle rider should practice and understand that leaning the bike quickly by countersteering is the only way to avoid certain hazards.
Quote from: ODrides on July 19, 2010, 06:25:09 AM
Countersteering is not optional. You will benefit from practicing the concept, but it you have ridden a bike you have already countersteered intuitively. Understanding the direction of the front wheel is less important than understanding that, at speed, a bike needs two things to turn; lean angle and traction. Pushing the handlebar causes the bike to lean. If the tires have traction, the bike will turn.
If we countersteer intuitively why teach it and practice it? Steady, easy turning comes naturally, but changing direction quickly does not. Mastering the emergency lane change maneuver or correcting lean angle mid-turn are not intuitive. A competent motorcycle rider should practice and understand that leaning the bike quickly by countersteering is the only way to avoid certain hazards.
Nicely put. Great place to learn/do this is a track-based riding class.