I am a junkie for extra coolness factor as well as wanting to squeeze a bit more performance out of my scoots. So, I got the free-er flowing cans (couldn't spring for a full system), and I am now considering going with a pair of K&N pod filters.
Yes, I know this will require re-jetting of the carbs, etc., etc., etc.
What I ask is if any of you who has EXPERIENCE WITH THIS MOD, whether it be from your own bike or some who has worked on a bike with this mod has an opinion on this, and whether or not they would have gone back to the old airbox. I will rarely ride the bike in the winter, though I will probably run the bike almost every day during the winter.
Thanks in advance for your answers.
1 you have to remove the case recirc setup
2 you can have water problems in rain
3 you may need to retune your carbs
that's about all I can think of. I have done it on previous bikes, the only reason I don't on my S2R is the case breather setup. The more I read about that, the more I am convinced it's a bad idea to remove it. It is possible to make another one tho with pod filtres, just out of my experience.
So what you're saying is to possibly mod the stock box to shield the pod filters from water. This was somewhat of the direction I thought of. This could prove to be interesting... I am waiting on others to weigh in...
I already removed the case re-circ set-up when removing the "emissions" carbon cannister and box. I also thought of this- The stock box gives a place to mount the HID ballast; that is, if I end up using the DDM tuning HID kit (I have a kit that doesn't work, yet DDM says my ballast is ok; hmmm...). The stock box does have it uses...
While I do avoid riding in the rain, it can still happen and I could have some problems. Food for thought...
Thanks.
Quote from: bunnyman666 on September 13, 2010, 03:24:38 AM
So what you're saying is to possibly mod the stock box to shield the pod filters from water. This was somewhat of the direction I thought of. This could prove to be interesting... I am waiting on others to weigh in...
no. pod filters mean no airbox at all. you can cut your airbox lid which gives about the same performance gains as pod filters, but you still have the airbox..
QuoteI already removed the case re-circ set-up when removing the "emissions" carbon cannister and box. I also thought of this- The stock box gives a place to mount the HID ballast; that is, if I end up using the DDM tuning HID kit (I have a kit that doesn't work, yet DDM says my ballast is ok; hmmm...). The stock box does have it uses...
While I do avoid riding in the rain, it can still happen and I could have some problems. Food for thought...
Thanks.
Was a bit confused by this quote: It is possible to make another one tho with pod filtres, just out of my experience.
But if you can't stick pods inside a box, that's fair enough.
I guess I am thinking then of possibly just going K&N with a cut box lid like I did on the last Duc. I should be getting this bike (2000 Monster Dark 750) in the next few days; just gotta pick it up. No, I didn't buy it sight unseen, either. I saw the bike on a trip to my cousin's house; had no way to get it home. My cousin and I already did the "emissions" mods. Bought some Leo Vinces for nearly nothing right after.
Pods do look cool; but if they cause tonnes of problems, I want nothing to do with them.
Again- I will wait to here others weigh in...
This topic gets beat to death. -1 for the pods. I know someone will argue this but unless you get someone who knows this set up and has a good knack for tuning or has a dyno, I would stick with the closest to stock config. I've tried the pod thing on previous bikes just to switch it back again. Sometimes you can get the bike to run well at certain RPM's while at other rev's it runs like shit. You have to consider that most stock carbs were tuned(and designed) for use with an airbox thus needing a certain amount of intake resistance. Some carbs just weren't designed to work with high volumes of air and cant be modded with just a simple jet swap. It's just some food for though.
FYI: It took me months to try to get my CB400F-SS to run "OK" with pods. Dont forget its 4 carbs. I ended up bringing it to a shop with a dyno and spending a lot of $$ to get it to run decent throughout its full range.
Quote from: speedknot on September 13, 2010, 01:25:21 PM
This topic gets beat to death. -1 for the pods. I know someone will argue this but unless you get someone who knows this set up and has a good knack for tuning or has a dyno, I would stick with the closest to stock config. I've tried the pod thing on previous bikes just to switch it back again. Sometimes you can get the bike to run well at certain RPM's while at other rev's it runs like shit. You have to consider that most stock carbs were tuned(and designed) for use with an airbox thus needing a certain amount of intake resistance. Some carbs just weren't designed to work with high volumes of air and cant be modded with just a simple jet swap. It's just some food for though.
FYI: It took me months to try to get my CB400F-SS to run "OK" with pods. Dont forget its 4 carbs. I ended up bringing it to a shop with a dyno and spending a lot of $$ to get it to run decent throughout its full range.
doesn't K&N sell a single unit for those? one filter element with 4 spigots?
(http://i900.photobucket.com/albums/ac206/motomonster/kn.jpg)have them on mine, seem to work fine pay $70.00 for them hated the airbox look >:(
Quote from: ducatiz on September 13, 2010, 02:23:37 PM
doesn't K&N sell a single unit for those? one filter element with 4 spigots?
Not that I know of; however, the stock airbox on most of those bikes is an airbox with one inlet and four outlets to the individual carbs. K&N makes the drop-in filter for that application.
Removing the stock airbox from my Kawasaki KZ650B was a freakin' nightmare!!!! I ended up cutting out the airbox!!!
Now the question is this: has anyone noticed any rain problems when they cut the top of the airbox? I am merely curious about that.
Never any rain problems w open box w Mikunis
nor w pods on my FCRs.
Quote from: bunnyman666 on September 13, 2010, 04:25:40 AM
.....
I guess I am thinking then of possibly just going K&N with a cut box lid like I did on the last Duc.
...
I've got this setup on my M900. It runs fine in the rain... no issues even in a couple of outright downpours (I know, I know... "get off the road and under a bridge, a#@hole!").
Great intake sound when you whack it open, too... but I'd still like to switch over to pods for the appearance.
It's good to hear folks running pod filters don't have rain issues. I imagine that problem is hypothetical and it might take more than a regular rain to do it.
here's a good question: Two pod filters or a single large pod with two spigots?
I have seen the latter, I don't know if it was K&N but they will make stuff like that.
Quote from: ducatiz on September 14, 2010, 04:38:51 AM
here's a good question: Two pod filters or a single large pod with two spigots?
I have seen the latter, I don't know if it was K&N but they will make stuff like that.
I have seen up to four outlets from one large pod; I think it is a custom-built application. I actually see that as being nearly as restrictive as an airbox. I may be wrong, however...
I did see something adapted for a four-carb operation: a small oval K&N with two outlets. One fellow sells them in pairs for the old 39mm Mikunis (i.e. 4 carb KZ's, CB's, etc.,etc.).
I'm wandering......
A airbox would seam better at blocking the heat from the motor since
high temparature in the carb can make work less effecently since hot air is more dense
I'm thinking about creating a "ram air" so it would force air into the airbox.
It would increasse air pressure in the air box acting like a supercharger.
I'm thinking about profiling my needle to reduce the air vortex in the carb .
And rejet the carb completly
Less vortex= better air flo= increase performance
Pods look cool but some serious is needed to the carb
If pilot jet, needle jet, main jet, pilot srcew ... are confusing therms...forget pods
Thats just me thinking.
Bunnyman, just use the search function. Tons of threads on the topic I'm sure.
Your carbs are constant velocity carbs, meaning they are happiest with an airbox. But tons of folks here have done pods (with some carb tweaking) and are satisfied with them.
I tested open airbox Vs pods, so try a search on that. The tests were with FCRs, but should give you an idea. Pm me and I can email some dyno charts.
If getting every bit of available power isnt your goal, then pods make servicing easier, drop some weight, look real old school and let more cooling air through to the rear cylinder.
I prefer tuned airboxes, but would consider pods for certain applications where the best power wasn't everything.
I found pods bloody loud however, but if you're a young turk and dont care then why not, (I must be getting old). Motowheels has an alloy battery box available that lets you run pods and fit your ignition components easily.
I found pods wanted a little less fuel in the midrange and top end on my modified M900. I have no experience with pods and CV carbs.
Let us know how you go.
If you go with pods, KEEP the rubber intakes/stacks/hoses/things that go between carbs and airbox: they smooth out the airflow into the carbs and help power & torque.
I have this mod. (Pods-carbed Monster)
- never a problem in the rain nor have I ever heard of others having issues.
- +1 on cool factor
- +1 on complications with tuning. The general consensus seems to be that your best case scenario will be sacrificing a few (2-5) HP.
- Disagree completely on this subject being beat to death. Lots of folks desire this mod and the jury is still out on the best way to tune it so it works well. The more discussion on this subject the better.
- Talking briefly to Mark Sutton he recommended I try an open top style of pod filter. Google K&N X-Stream
I'm going to bite the bullet and pay an experienced tuner like Mark to tune my FCR's and PODS with a Dyno and report the results. There's just too many variables at play...atmospheric conditions, other mods etc. People seem to either bolt on FCR's with pods and go, loving it...or are just endlessly frustrated like me. Doesn't help that I'm not mechanically gifted like so many others on the Forum like Koko and Brad.
Cold air is denser than warm air.
Better re-do your calculations.
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on March 20, 2014, 01:11:49 PM
I'm wandering......
A airbox would seam better at blocking the heat from the motor since
high temparature in the carb can make work less effecently since hot air is more dense
I'm thinking about creating a "ram air" so it would force air into the airbox.
It would increasse air pressure in the air box acting like a supercharger.
I'm thinking about profiling my needle to reduce the air vortex in the carb .
And rejet the carb completly
Less vortex= better air flo= increase performance
Pods look cool but some serious is needed to the carb
If pilot jet, needle jet, main jet, pilot srcew ... are confusing therms...forget pods
Thats just me thinking.
Airbox Ram by Riding House of Japan
(http://www.riding-house.com/products/img/dfm020.jpg)
(http://www.riding-house.com/products/img/dfm020_2.jpg)
Quote from: Buck Naked on March 23, 2014, 08:58:04 AM
....
I'm going to bite the bullet and pay an experienced tuner like Mark to tune my FCR's and PODS with a Dyno and report the results. There's just too many variables at play...atmospheric conditions, other mods etc. People seem to either bolt on FCR's with pods and go, loving it...or are just endlessly frustrated like me. Doesn't help that I'm not mechanically gifted like so many others on the Forum like Koko and Brad.
While time and frustration are certainly a factor, anything Brad and Koko know can be learned. Even the black magic stuff, lol. However I'm sure things must be a ton easier with a dyno at ones disposal.
Quote from: dufukincati on March 23, 2014, 02:28:48 PM
Airbox Ram by Riding House of Japan
(http://www.riding-house.com/products/img/dfm020.jpg)
(http://www.riding-house.com/products/img/dfm020_2.jpg)
This is pretty cool. Kind of like the snorkels but in a better spot for air flow.
There's a lot of good points in this thread.
My 2 cents..
- I wouldn't describe pods as a great performance mod but they can provide practical solutions. An example would be running split FCR carbs on short manifolds like the MBP motors that make over 100hp from an air cooled desmodue. Either that or build your own custom airbox.
- Pods make servicing and tuning carbs so much easier.
- According to CCW dyno charts, the RU1750 pods flow enough to support over 100 hp, it's just that a good airbox would be better. I say good airbox because I don't think the oem carbed airbox is very good in stock form; it's better than pods, but not that much better. I did some tests years ago that showed about a 2hp difference and better power curve with an open airbox. There's a thread somewhere.. A modified, enlarged airbox made another 5hp again on a ported motor that could use it.
- Dynos are great tools in the right hands. The dyno shop I use has an older guy and young new tech. Guess who I ask to test the carbed bikes! The older guy grew up on carbed bikes.
- People like Brad are highly gifted, professionally trained, qualified techs, who are scientifically curious and persistent. For the record I'm just curious and persistent. So it's true that people can do much of their own work. This community has so many gifted members I have learned so much from. It's just whether you have the time and inclination. I have a customer who can fix broken oil rigs, but cant tune his carbs or set his suspension even with great effort and he's a genius. Some people are just too busy being great at something else.
- Finding a good dyno guy is a beautiful thing. It's good to have an instrument that lets you check your work (and saves so much time make the beast with two backsing around in the wrong direction).
- Nothing totally replaces road testing and having a feel for how a motor runs imo.
Koko, I bet that older guy could probably do it all by ear and get it close to spot on.
He is younger than me, but grew up racing dirt bikes with flatslide carbs before taking up road racing iirc. I could hear him open the throttle differently to the young guy and wanted the test to be run the same for more comparable data. He said the young fella, "didn't know how to ride a carburettor".
I knew a mechanic ten years older than me, from whom I learned much; he could tune by ear.
i don't know how you tune anything by ear, personally.
there's a few points around this subject that i like to separate.
if you want a look, like some of the non normal exhausts (exbox), then the look may involve compromises. like the current cafe racer scene, where dudes go on about not wanting to lose any of the minimal performance their 70's shitbox never had, while trying to make it look "right" on the budget of crap pods and mufflers. if you want the look, then you get what you get. that's just how it is. embrace or retreat.
this is my take on a good use of pods: http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/mounting-pod-filters-on-ducati-4v-intake.html (http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/mounting-pod-filters-on-ducati-4v-intake.html)
pods inside an airbox, with trumpets inside them.
I'm overhauling my bike and my first choice was Pod's but after
speeking to some "specialist" mecanical enginers and some AMA ex-racer's
I'va change my mind .
A ram air whit the air box sound more logical ....
Increassing the air pressure in the air box and the carb "eating cold air" from the front of the bike where the selling point for me.
I'm also porting (38mm to 40.5mm) , re-jetting and polishing(maybe) the carb to reduce vortex...... just to make sure .. lol [popcorn]
Quote from: ducpainter on March 23, 2014, 09:59:48 AM
Cold air is denser than warm air.
Better re-do your calculations.
Oups sorry ;D I ment the opposite ... I normaly speak french [thumbsup]. and I was in the bathroom when whrote that ;D
[laugh]
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on March 24, 2014, 01:00:34 PM
Oups sorry I was in the bathroom when whrote that ;D
Ok while we're on the subject, here is a test to demonstrate how to increase air flow via an open airbox. When in the bathroom, turn on the exhaust fan and leave the door shut, then with the exhaust fan still on open the door,... notice the speed of the fan increase? [laugh] Notice too that there is a point where the fan is no longer affected as the door is opened wider. At that point the "port/s" can no longer accommodate the volume of air available. [laugh] ;D ;D ;D
You are so cute when you post things like that. :)
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh]
This thread went in a different direction...
Brad - that link to the blog is giving me an error about not having access. Is there another way to read your post?
Sorry buddy, couldn't resist.
The link didn't work for me either, wouldn't mind seeing it..
http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/mounting-pod-filters-on-ducati-4v-intake.html (http://bradthebikeboy.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/mounting-pod-filters-on-ducati-4v-intake.html)
i had more in my head to type, but no time.
Im not sure who mentioned it in an old thread, but the idea of carbon shrouds to shield the pods from cross winds and turbulance was mentioned. The idea that pods may run ok on the dyno but not as well at high speeds came up. I guess that's a similar concept to running pods in an airbox.
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on March 24, 2014, 12:52:47 PM
I'm overhauling my bike and my first choice was Pod's but after
speeking to some "specialist" mecanical enginers and some AMA ex-racer's
I'va change my mind .
A ram air whit the air box sound more logical ....
Increassing the air pressure in the air box and the carb "eating cold air" from the front of the bike where the selling point for me.
I'm also porting (38mm to 40.5mm) , re-jetting and polishing(maybe) the carb to reduce vortex...... just to make sure .. lol [popcorn]
Being serious now, it would be great to see what you do with the airbox and carburetor modifications. :) That would be a great topic in itself.
"i had more in my head to type, but no time."
I can come by the shop sometime and you can share your thoughts in person. We haven't done that in awhile.
Quote from: koko64 on March 25, 2014, 11:24:59 AM
"i had more in my head to type, but no time."
I can come by the shop sometime and you can share your thoughts in person. We haven't done that in awhile.
I want the transcript of that conversation :)
how about these:
http://cosentino-engineering.myshopify.com/products/ktm-950-billet-velocity-stack (http://cosentino-engineering.myshopify.com/products/ktm-950-billet-velocity-stack)
Look great. Look like Beast stacks for carbs.
Wonder if they fit tandem carbs?
Quote from: brad black on March 29, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
how about these:
http://cosentino-engineering.myshopify.com/products/ktm-950-billet-velocity-stack (http://cosentino-engineering.myshopify.com/products/ktm-950-billet-velocity-stack)
So damn expensive though...would be worth it if they worked. Those filters would get squashed down pretty good. I've been wondering if that's part of the problem, the decreased surface area where the filters are squashed against the bottom of the tank?
One way to do it would be to get two disc/spacers machined and drilled which go on first and then use the blue stacks on top. The bolts (need longer), go through, then clamp the pods to the discs.The filters of your choice, matching the diameter of the discs/spacers allow for the filter clamps and you got the blueys there under the filters. On a long manifold motor I would run the spacers as short as possible (the width of the clamps or say 10mm) and have the blueys in as big a set of pods that will fit tandem.
Your guy could do them.
Quote from: koko64 on March 30, 2014, 11:05:14 AM
One way to do it would be to get two disc/spacers machined and drilled which go on first and then use the blue stacks on top. The bolts (need longer), go through, then clamp the pods to the discs.The filters of your choice, matching the diameter of the discs/spacers allow for the filter clamps and you got the blueys there under the filters. On a long manifold motor I would run the spacers as short as possible (the width of the clamps or say 10mm) and have the blueys in as big a set of pods that will fit tandem.
Your guy could do them.
I have the plastic K&N adapters Brad suggested awhile back now, and the pods clamped directly to those. If the blue stacks fit on those, it seems that would achieve the same thing you're describing?
My guy? I don't know any machinists, and the dude who helped me do my first swap is never laying hands on my bike again.... I would pay for the TPO Beast kit or the sexy one Brad just posted if I thought it would make a significant improvement, but I've always been under the impression that velocity stacks for our motors were only beneficial for protecting the jets...Chris Kelley seems to feel they are unnecessary, or at least that was always my impression. Then again he also strongly advises against pods in the first place. I still like your idea of carbon fiber "shrouds" around the pods.
Bet I could have a machinist make me one of those kits for wayyyy less $$...
Those K&N adaptors will do the same thing, so you are ok. It's the internal shape that counts.
Yeah getting the spacers made to use the blue stacks would be cool to let you use a custom pod of your choice. The diameter of the spacer can be machined to suit the the pod flange ID for your application.
I wiil be running TM38 flatslides on short manifolds on my E750 which looks like a reality now ;).
Quote from: Buck Naked on March 30, 2014, 11:41:19 AM
I have the plastic K&N adapters Brad suggested awhile back now, and the pods clamped directly to those. If the blue stacks fit on those, it seems that would achieve the same thing you're describing?
My guy? I don't know any machinists, and the dude who helped me do my first swap is never laying hands on my bike again.... I would pay for the TPO Beast kit or the sexy one Brad just posted if I thought it would make a significant improvement, but I've always been under the impression that velocity stacks for our motors were only beneficial for protecting the jets...Chris Kelley seems to feel they are unnecessary, or at least that was always my impression. Then again he also strongly advises against pods in the first place. I still like your idea of carbon fiber "shrouds" around the pods.
Bet I could have a machinist make me one of those kits for wayyyy less $$...
The carbon shrouds may have been mentioned by speeddog or duckstew iirc in a pods thread years ago now. The effects of cross winds, turbulence etc came up iirc.
Yeah, getting a machinist to make 'em to suit the best pod size for your carb and tank set up would be good.
Im using aluminum v stacks from Velocity of Sound, filtered with v stack "socks" from Outerwears. According to micron density they have the same as a K&N pod filter.
What I dont get is when I see big expensive custom HD engines with a single unfiltered v stack sticking out the side..
I wonder how often they need to fix/replace the cylinders?
Yeah, fashion over function.
There are custom shaped V stacks on serious drag bikes to reduce turbulence. They look like a cross between a wind sock and a V stack.
A buddy has a 2000 XL1200S. It is the rare model with oem twin plug heads, special ignition, hotter cams and hi comps from the factory. It's the last of the carby models, and it's got a nice HSR42 replacing the oem CV carb but it has a stupid Hypercharger air cleaner on it. Ah, reduce airflow, increase turbulence and add 5kg of chrome. [puke]
Boy do I give him heaps! [laugh]
Quote from: koko64 on March 30, 2014, 01:05:18 PM
Yeah, fashion over function.
There are custom shaped V stacks on serious drag bikes to reduce turbulence. They look like a cross between a wind sock and a V stack.
A buddy has a 2000 XL1200S. It is the rare model with oem twin plug heads, special ignition, hotter cams and hi comps from the factory. It's the last of the carby models, and it's got a nice HSR42 replacing the oem CV carb but it has a stupid Hypercharger air cleaner on it. Ah, reduce airflow, increase turbulence and add 5kg of chrome. [puke]
Boy do I give him heaps! [laugh]
[laugh]
Quote from: memper on March 30, 2014, 12:46:07 PM
Im using aluminum v stacks from Velocity of Sound, filtered with v stack "socks" from Outerwears. According to micron density they have the same as a K&N pod filter.
What I dont get is when I see big expensive custom HD engines with a single unfiltered v stack sticking out the side..
I wonder how often they need to fix/replace the cylinders?
Not many but there are a couple on this board that run no filter...the Motocreations guy is one. I certainly wouldn't chance it..
Koko
Looking at the TPO kit, it specifically states that it's intended for FI bikes. What is this carbed TPO kit you speak of?
Also, are these kits designed to protect the air jets? (I thought I'd read that the blue stacks leave the main and slow air jets exposed)
Thanks
Quote from: Buck Naked on March 30, 2014, 04:06:55 PM
Koko
Looking at the TPO kit, it specifically states that it's intended for FI bikes. What is this carbed TPO kit you speak of?
Also, are these kits designed to protect the air jets? (I thought I'd read that the blue stacks leave the main and slow air jets exposed)
Thanks
Can't answer on the TPO subject but it is true that the blue stacks that come with FCR kits do not cover the two exposed jet holes on the venturi.
Funny tangent: when I got my FCR's last year I thought it would be sweet to make my own pod filter v stack. So I trimmed the flange on my pods, got the blue v stack ends to fit perfectly in the pods, got em glued up....only to the realize the blue stacks didn't cover the jet holes. I should've put a post in Tutorials on how to effectively ruin a pair of pod filters.
I was referring to the kits Brad linked. I meant they looked like TPO kits, but for carbs. I emailed TPO a few years ago and they said that they didn't make a kit for old carbed bikes.
I think the K&N stacks for pods from Powerbarn or these KTM stacks would be good, but better check the latter fit tandem unless you are going the split FCRs on short manifolds and even then you gotta fit the frame and under the tank. Check the specs for sure. They look like they protect the air jets from here.
That's why I mentioned the el cheapo idea of alloy spacers and the blueys. Wouldn't be hard with the right gear. The spacers would have passages to protect the air jets so only filtered air gets to them.
The Powerbarn items are longer but ready to go.
Quote from: memper on March 30, 2014, 04:52:12 PM
Can't answer on the TPO subject but it is true that the blue stacks that come with FCR kits do not cover the two exposed jet holes on the venturi.
Funny tangent: when I got my FCR's last year I thought it would be sweet to make my own pod filter v stack. So I trimmed the flange on my pods, got the blue v stack ends to fit perfectly in the pods, got em glued up....only to the realize the blue stacks didn't cover the jet holes. I should've put a post in Tutorials on how to effectively ruin a pair of pod filters.
Everyone's done somethin'. If they haven't, they lied! [laugh]
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PX-air-filter-Keihin-FCR-carburetor-Ducati-Monster-SuperSport-SS-M900-flatslide-/201036462453?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2eceb4f975&_uhb=1 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PX-air-filter-Keihin-FCR-carburetor-Ducati-Monster-SuperSport-SS-M900-flatslide-/201036462453?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item2eceb4f975&_uhb=1)
That looks like the filter in my 996,
Not the same brand.
Looks like an in airbox filter, but doesn't seem to work that way with the air jets still exposed with no rubber boots to the airbox. Maybe the foam seals the holes to the airbox. Two into one set up is trick looking. I like being able to use the blueys. My Gixxer has a PX filter.