a bit of an exercise but still a very interesting article from DE, as usual:
http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/13/number_crunching_how_much_of_a_factor_is.html (http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/13/number_crunching_how_much_of_a_factor_is.html)
as usual rossi being a complete b*&$# because he is not winning.
you don't see stoner making up crap like this.
rossi may be the best motogp rider ever, but damn if he isn't a whiny little b*tch when things aren't going his way.
Quote from: sbrguy on April 14, 2011, 07:57:45 AM
you don't see stoner making up crap like this.
Maybe Hayden would be a better example than Stoner? :)
Quote from: sbrguy on April 14, 2011, 07:57:45 AM
as usual rossi being a complete b*&$# because he is not winning.
you don't see stoner making up crap like this.
rossi may be the best motogp rider ever, but damn if he isn't a whiny little b*tch when things aren't going his way.
...and then there's that POV :). tbh i don't think i've ever heard rossi whine about anything, ever.
F1 has minimum combined car-driver weight. i agree bikes are very different and think this probably won't go anywhere, but at least there is a logical precedent.
submitting a proposal to the Safety Commission, informal or not, aint very pregnant dogy.
"Deviation" [coffee]
Quote from: sbrguy on April 14, 2011, 07:57:45 AM
you don't see stoner making up crap like this.
Um, what about the 15 pg thread on jerez? Stoner saying the corner marshals are not fair and should be Christian???
mitt
Quote from: sbrguy on April 14, 2011, 07:57:45 AM
as usual rossi being a complete b*&$# because he is not winning.
you don't see stoner making up crap like this.
rossi may be the best motogp rider ever, but damn if he isn't a whiny little b*tch when things aren't going his way.
I guess you haven't followed Stoner much over his career?
In a way it makes sense , what if I decided I wanted to race professionally and some how made it to MOTOGP.
I'm 6'5" and w. full gear about 275 lbs.
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn198/DoubleEagle_photo/DSCN0598-1.jpg)
Dolph :)
This is opening an interesting " can of worms ."
Since all the Riders in professional Moto racing have come up through the ranks of either 125cc Grand Prix or like Nicky did from the " Dirt ," it seems like you arrive at the highest level of your proficiency by way of your talent plus your body makeup.
It's not quite like Thoroughbred Horse Racing where all the Riders are " Jockeyes " of diminutive size, but it is in that being a larger person although having advantages w. the leverage over the mechanical forces of the Physics losses out in the extra weight vs hp and wind resistance.
Just a hypothetical case here.
What if a very talented Athlete like LeBron or Kobe got hurt and couldn't play B"ball anymore and liked to ride bikes.
They decided they wanted to get real good at riding ..so much so that they got good enough to race on a WERA or AMA Superbike level .
Then let's just say for arguments sake , they won enough to go International and won the British super Stock one year and once again for arguments sake they had what it takes to go to WSBK ..excpt they are 6'9" tall and in top shape weigh w. gear 295 lbs.
For all in tense and purposes they wouldn't be competitve due to their size.
Should they be kept out of the Sport because of their size or could there ever be a fair way that they could compete against the " more normal " Riders ?
Dolph :)
It's a can of worms, indeed.
And I'll say, in a blanket statement of fact fit only for the internet, that "this shit don't matter."
There doesn't seem to be any overall correlation between rider weight and winning, and if there were... well... it'd just be an aspect of the sport. I don't see anybody hooking lead weights to horses...
Quote from: zarn02 on April 18, 2011, 01:45:54 AM
It's a can of worms, indeed.
And I'll say, in a blanket statement of fact fit only for the internet, that "this shit don't matter."
There doesn't seem to be any overall correlation between rider weight and winning, and if there were... well... it'd just be an aspect of the sport. I don't see anybody hooking lead weights to horses...
I agree. Likewise, there's no way for me to ever compete in the NBA regardless of my skill level. It's an aspect of the sport.
Quote from: zarn02 on April 18, 2011, 01:45:54 AM
I don't see anybody hooking lead weights to horses...
Pssst: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicapping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicapping)
There's precedent for the idea of balancing machine/driver weights in F1 as well.
All that said, IMO there doesn't seem to be a significant correlation in MotoGP, certainly not enough to be getting out the can opener...
I'd like to see the argument in the context of NASCAR
If Dorna is going to set a minimum bike weight, then it makes sense that the weight should include the rider, just as it does in F1. There is no reason a larger rider should have a disadvantageous just because he isn't a munchkin.
Dorna also stipulates fuel volume, so a bike with a heavier rider is requiring the motor to move more mass for the entire race distance on the same amount of fuel. That is a disadvantage. A heavier total package also puts more stress on the tires & brakes...another disadvantage, especially considering that Dorna dictates the tires.
There may not be a correlation between rider weight and race wins...but anybody watching the races can agree there is a correlation between starts and rider weight. Pedrossa usually gets spectacular starts.
Quote from: triangleforge on April 18, 2011, 10:22:32 AM
Pssst: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicapping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicapping)
Quote from: zarn02 on April 18, 2011, 01:45:54 AM
I don't see anybody hooking lead weights to horses...
"Horses carry lead weights during the course of a race as a form of handicap."So, turns out I don't know shit about horse racing. [laugh]
Ignore me, and carry on.
So does anyone think that there should be a handicapping system to make it fair for larger Riders to participate in Motosports ?
Or should it only be a Sport for " little " people ?
Dolph
In NHRA all classes must make a certain weight, including driver and gear. When Angelle Sampey was racing Pro Stock bike, she used to run 100lbs of ballast to make weight.
Nice thing about ballast... you can usually put it in a more desirable location than when the weight is part of the rider.
Can anyone see a way that a " large " person like a LeBron at 6'9" and in full Race gear 290 lbs. could ever be able to compete in MotoSport like Road Racing ?
Dolph
Quote from: DoubleEagle on April 17, 2011, 10:02:44 PM
Just a hypothetical case here.
What if a very talented Athlete like LeBron or Kobe got hurt and couldn't play B"ball anymore and liked to ride bikes.
They decided they wanted to get real good at riding ..so much so that they got good enough to race on a WERA or AMA Superbike level .
Then let's just say for arguments sake , they won enough to go International and won the British super Stock one year and once again for arguments sake they had what it takes to go to WSBK ..excpt they are 6'9" tall and in top shape weigh w. gear 295 lbs.
For all in tense and purposes they wouldn't be competitve due to their size.
Should they be kept out of the Sport because of their size or could there ever be a fair way that they could compete against the " more normal " Riders ?
Dolph :)
Yes they should be kept out. Should we lower the basket so 5 footers can compete in professional basketball? No. A person's size is usually what keeps them from certain sports and drives them to others. An undersize linebacker might choose to pursue baseball instead of football because he can't compete due to lack of bulk. You don't modify the sport because he can't play, no matter how talented he is. Shorter athletes might choose soccer instead of basketball or baseball because its easier to make a career. There are tons of talented athletes that can't fulfill their dreams due to size. You just accept it and move on.
Valentino is a normal size guy, and so is the Ben and Simoncelli. Those guys haven't been hindered at all. They are very light compared to a normal person of their size, but that's just due to working their ass off to stay lean.
Quote from: Jester on April 19, 2011, 03:04:12 AM
Yes they should be kept out. Should we lower the basket so 5 footers can compete in professional basketball? No. A person's size is usually what keeps them from certain sports and drives them to others. An undersize linebacker might choose to pursue baseball instead of football because he can't compete due to lack of bulk. You don't modify the sport because he can't play, no matter how talented he is. Shorter athletes might choose soccer instead of basketball or baseball because its easier to make a career. There are tons of talented athletes that can't fulfill their dreams due to size. You just accept it and move on.
Prime example #1, Antonio Gates. Too small to play forward, too tall for a guard, ends up a Tight End (after never playing football), and became one of the most dominant tight ends in the game.
Quote from: Jester on April 19, 2011, 03:04:12 AM
Valentino is a normal size guy, and so is the Ben and Simoncelli. Those guys haven't been hindered at all. They are very light compared to a normal person of their size, but that's just due to working their ass off to stay lean.
Rossi and Spies are giving up 50-60 lbs to Pedrosa. This is noticeable at the start of every race. It's hard to say if they're hindered throughout the rest of the race. Rossi has beaten Pedrobot numerous times, so he's obviously a better rider, but would it have been as close if their weights were more equal? Hard to say yet with Spies...he's probably the biggest rider in GP though. That extra 50-60 lbs has to have an effect on tire wear, and maybe other things as well.
I still think the minimum weight should be bike and rider combined. Nothing dramatic to help with Dolph's scenario...but something should be done to equalize the combo. The lighter rider would still have a slight advantage since the ballast could be placed anywhere on the bike.
Quote from: Triple J on April 19, 2011, 08:54:23 AM
Rossi and Spies are giving up 50-60 lbs to Pedrosa. This is noticeable at the start of every race. It's hard to say if they're hindered throughout the rest of the race. Rossi has beaten Pedrobot numerous times, so he's obviously a better rider, but would it have been as close if their weights were more equal? Hard to say yet with Spies...he's probably the biggest rider in GP though. That extra 50-60 lbs has to have an effect on tire wear, and maybe other things as well.
I still think the minimum weight should be bike and rider combined. Nothing dramatic to help with Dolph's scenario...but something should be done to equalize the combo. The lighter rider would still have a slight advantage since the ballast could be placed anywhere on the bike.
No way they are giving up 50 to 60 lbs - those guys only weight 150ish to start with. Ped-bot doesn't weigh 90lbs...
And IMO until I can play pro bball at 5'10", then 7' guys should not play pro moto racing.
mitt
Rossi,Simo,Spies,Hayden are only giving up 30-40 pounds max....
Quote from: DoubleEagle on April 18, 2011, 11:36:50 PM
Can anyone see a way that a " large " person like a LeBron at 6'9" and in full Race gear 290 lbs. could ever be able to compete in MotoSport like Road Racing ?
Dolph
no.
I was just going off of googled weights...Spies at 160, Rossi at 148, Pedrobot at 112. OK....up to ~50 lb difference (I screwed up the conversion on Pedrobot's weight before). 5'-11" vs. 5'-2" height difference, so that weight difference isn't out of line. That difference could be around ~10% of the total weight...significant.
Quote from: mitt on April 19, 2011, 10:09:24 AM
And IMO until I can play pro bball at 5'10", then 7' guys should not play pro moto racing.
You could if you were talented enough...thre are a few sub 5'-10" NBA players. There are also some sub 5'-10" NFL players...look at the Patriots.
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-shortest-nba-players.php (http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-shortest-nba-players.php)
Anyway...I'm not saying equalize the weights for giants...that's ridiculous. Just try to equalize them for normal size riders...say the current bike min. weight plus 140-150 lbs for an average rider = the total minimum weight. Riders above average size have to suck it up.
From the article linked by the OP:
Simoncelli - 158 lb - 6'0" - Tallest & Heaviest
Spies - 156 lb - 5'11"
Hayden - 152 lbs - 5'8"
Rossi - 147 lbs - 5'11"
Lorenzo - 143 lbs - 5'8"
Stoner - 128 lbs - 5'7"
Pedrosa - 112 lbs - 5'3" - Shortest and Lightest
Quote from: Triple J on April 19, 2011, 10:51:06 AM
I was just going off of googled weights...Spies at 160, Rossi at 148, Pedrobot at 112. OK....up to ~50 lb difference (I screwed up the conversion on Pedrobot's weight before). 5'-11" vs. 5'-2" height difference, so that weight difference isn't out of line. That difference could be around ~10% of the total weight...significant.
You could if you were talented enough...thre are a few sub 5'-10" NBA players. There are also some sub 5'-10" NFL players...look at the Patriots.
http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-shortest-nba-players.php (http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-shortest-nba-players.php)
Anyway...I'm not saying equalize the weights for giants...that's ridiculous. Just try to equalize them for normal size riders...say the current bike min. weight plus 140-150 lbs for an average rider = the total minimum weight. Riders above average size have to suck it up.
I can see a machine weight, but not a total weight.
No matter which way you go it becomes a penalty for someone.
Let them weigh what they weigh and go racing.
Rider + bike weight just gives incentive for people to get tiny riders and strategically-placed ballast. I mean, imagine if it were moveable -- you could take 20 lbs and have it shift around a bit so that it was either perfectly centered or off to a side or the front or back to minimize load or to provide traction. Jebus, can ya imagine? And while intuitively I like the idea of bike + rider min weight, it's not like Douchey McSmurfjizz is winning every race. Just leave it be. And while we at it, ditch the 21 liters. Ditch the electronics. Let 'em race. [thumbsup]
Just as long as they don't let girls race GP. Then we'll have to start making some rules. :P
Quote from: Spidey on April 19, 2011, 12:10:17 PM
Just as long as they don't let girls race GP. Then we'll have to start making some rules. :P
I realize you're probably half-kidding, but personally, I'd love to see some female GP riders. As a father of 2 little girls who are constantly being told that motorcycles aren't for girls, they should keep their hands clean, etc., I would love to see a woman dragging knee through some GP corners.
Quote from: dgm on April 19, 2011, 12:14:48 PM
I realize you're probably half-kidding, but personally, I'd love to see some female GP riders. As a father of 2 little girls who are constantly being told that motorcycles aren't for girls, they should keep their hands clean, etc., I would love to see a woman dragging knee through some GP corners.
I'm completely kidding. I'd love to see women in GP. I saw Elena Myers on Sunday at the local club races, and it was awesome how many girls/women/dude/old leches she attracted. It was . . . [thumbsup]
I was also kinda cryptically referencing a hysterical statement made by Simoncelli last year: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=38039.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=38039.0)
There was a woman who raced in WSS last year (don't know if she was in every race). Seemed to be plagued by breakdowns, and other DNFs. Was a shame, really, especially since I don't remember hearing anything about her this season.
Ahh...I missed that from Simoncelli last year. He seems quite brilliant eh? [bang]
If GP was more of a run what you brung type series I'd agree to leave it alone. However, it isn't. As soon as Dorna dictated a min. bike weight (not to mention fuel volume, tire choice, etc), then an advantage was given to a team with a lighter rider. This encourages lighter riders...as evidence by most of these "normal sized" guys weighing less than 150 lbs. Seriously...5'-11" and 147 lbs (Rossi)...that's a bean pole.
The numbers say it all. Given the min. bike weight of 330 lbs (150 kg)...the lightest package Simo's team can field is 488 lbs, while the lightest package Dani's team can field is 442 lbs. That's a 46 lb, or 10.3% difference. In a sport where tenths (or even hundredths) of a second count that is significant. This may not translate directly to race wins since there are too many other factors, but it no doubt effects the results in some fashion. Hayden admitted in the article to having to run a leaner fuel setting than Dani due to his weight.
Why not just eliminate the bike weight altogether, or maybe not limit the fuel volume. There are ways to equalize things, but a combined weight would be the most straight forward given the other restrictions in place.
Quote from: Triple J on April 19, 2011, 12:39:54 PM
Why not just eliminate the bike weight altogether
Cost.
Quote from: dgm on April 19, 2011, 12:14:48 PM
I realize you're probably half-kidding, but personally, I'd love to see some female GP riders. As a father of 2 little girls who are constantly being told that motorcycles aren't for girls, they should keep their hands clean, etc., I would love to see a woman dragging knee through some GP corners.
that is exactly why some of us are a lil bent at Denning and Suzuki for not letting a certain female AMA racer take a ride on the GSV-R at the end of last season as was suggested was going to happen.
Quote from: zooom on April 19, 2011, 01:06:13 PM
that is exactly why some of us are a lil bent at Denning and Suzuki for not letting a certain female AMA racer take a ride on the GSV-R at the end of last season as was suggested was going to happen.
fwiw, denning wasn't authorized to make the offer in the first place.
Quote from: Spidey on April 19, 2011, 12:10:17 PM
Rider + bike weight just gives incentive for people to get tiny riders and strategically-placed ballast. I mean, imagine if it were moveable -- you could take 20 lbs and have it shift around a bit so that it was either perfectly centered or off to a side or the front or back to minimize load or to provide traction. Jebus, can ya imagine? And while intuitively I like the idea of bike + rider min weight, it's not like Douchey McSmurfjizz is winning every race. Just leave it be. And while we at it, ditch the 21 liters. Ditch the electronics. Let 'em race. [thumbsup]
Just as long as they don't let girls race GP. Then we'll have to start making some rules. :P
Maybe I'm not remembering right, but I'm pretty sure Pedrosa used ballast in 125's and located it where they wanted it. For some reason that is in my head.
i dont see the big issue here... every single high level sport in the world has limits to how far you can go with what your genetics gave you. and in the end, it's more about the skill level of athlete that then lets them overcome their handicaps to become the best.
and i think it gets a lot messier with motorcycles... because there is also a advantage in leverage with being tall. because if you had to handicap the smaller lighter riders with extra weight, then you would also need to handicap the taller riders with some kind of brace so they couldnt hang off as easily wouldnt you? with most other racing, the weight/height of the driver doesnt drastically affect the handling of their car/horse, they are pretty much a static weight in the vehicle.
there are going to be advantages/disadvantages in every aspect of any kind of racing. and the best of the best are the ones that are just going to have to do better with what they are given whether it be their genetics or their vehicle. which in the end, is the reason they are the best.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Elena Myers end up in MOTOGP some day.
Dolph
Women riders would be sweet, everyone likes a chick on a bike! Could be MotoGPs new slogan "MotoGP, no fat chicks allowed" [thumbsup]