Just wondering if anyone here has any experience with the Bazazz Z Fi system. Any ups/downs?
Power Commander, Bazzaz, DP ECU. Spin the wheel, spend your time and money. All guesswork to try to get them running as the should have in the first place.
My 2 pesos.
Quote from: hillbillypolack on October 15, 2011, 08:50:28 PM...Power Commander, Bazzaz, DP ECU.....
I know nothing at all about Bazzaz, sorry. But Power Commander and DP ECU? Not the same thing at all, one is a fixed firmware primary device and the other is an entirely user programable add-on.
I have the same question :) I talked to a buddy that works at a bike shop, he said that the Bazzaz has better low end adjustability than the PCV. That being said, I have heard on here that below 4k RPM the stock ECU is a closed loop and can't be adjusted. Bazzaz has a lot of attachments including emulators for the O2 sensors, maybe that is how they do it?? I'm leaning toward Bazzaz, might be my winter purchase. Someone can jump in here that has experience with Bazzaz.
Quote from: Duc796canada on October 16, 2011, 05:22:13 PM... I talked to a buddy that works at the a bike shop, he said that the Bazzaz has better low end adjustability than the PCV.
Really? I wonder how so?
Quote from: Duc796canada on October 16, 2011, 05:22:13 PMThat being said, I have heard on here that below 4 RPM the stock ECU is closed loop and can't be adjusted.
That'd be correct (I forget now the exact rpm cut-in, but the point is correct).
Quote from: Duc796canada on October 16, 2011, 05:22:13 PMBazzaz has a lot of attachments including emulators for the O2 sensors, maybe that is how they do it?? I'm leaning toward Bazzaz, might be my winter purchase. Someone can jump in here that has experience with Bazzaz.
PCV also runs O2 "optimizers" which plug-in line of your stock lambda probes. Its their workaround for being otherwise unable to adjust the fuelling in the stock closed loop. Much the same as FatDuc for pre-Siemens Monsters.
I stand corrected.
A friend with a Streetfighter has a Bazzaz, hasn't yet installed it but did say it had the ability to improve the sub-4k rev range. Which perked my ears up.
I'd be curious to know more.
Quote from: hillbillypolack on October 16, 2011, 06:48:24 PM
I'd be curious to know more.
Me too. Keep us posted [thumbsup].
We are all here to learn...someone keep us informed without bias [thumbsup]
I've got a 2011 Monster 796 and initially installed the Z-FI system and was running with their slip-on map for my bike. I've got Arrow Slipon's installed with the baffles out. The fuel the slipon map was adding was pretty significant. Up to 30% at certain TPS/RPM intersections. While most of my decel pop's mostly went away, it was certainly running too rich. Bazzaz has a great software program and great phone-based technical support. Between the two I leaned out my map manually, basically just reducing the fuel additions to around half of what the slipon map was adding. This was about 3 weeks ago.
This last weekend I installed the Z-AFM system. It plugs right into the Z-FI and the O2 sensor went right into the exhaust where the stock sensor was. I put the system into "collection" mode and went for a 20 minute ride. One of the Bazzaz technicians suggested "if you're just going to ride on the street or track rather than put it on a Dyno, try letting the bike accelerate from a fixed throttle position, like 10%. Then fix the throttle position at 20% and let the bike accelerate. Etc., etc., etc. The theory is to try to get as many TPS/RPM combinations as possible."
When I got back and plugged it in to my computer, the results were really enlightening. Basically, the system suggested that certain TPS/RPM areas needed to come down from the slipon map more that other areas. I applied the changes, cleared the AFM, put it back into collection mode and went out for another similar ride. Upon return, the suggested changes were very minor, meaning that the first collection process really nailed where the air/fuel settings need to be.
I'll mention that at the start of this process, you need to pick an overall Air/Fuel ratio for the system to "work towards." The AFM defaulted to 13.0, which is where I left it. Once you get used to the system and what it's trying to do, you're able to do a lot of tweaking. For instance, the AFM system allows you to actually see what the actual A/F ratios are based on the map you've got loaded.
I don't race, and I'm not a mechanic. But I was able after a little bit of self-discovery, trial and error, and a couple of calls into Bazzaz tech support to get my bike running really, really well.
I'll also add, that the adjustments below 4k RPM's certainly adjusted that area. No question about it.
PM me if you have specific questions. I never did flash my ECU and while I've heard great things about the PCV, I've never used it. I am very happy and satisfied with my Bazzaz Z-FI and Z-AFM system, and would suggest if your going to do the FI, you should absolutely do the AFM.
RLS
Quote from: RLSinOP on October 18, 2011, 09:00:49 PMThis last weekend I installed the Z-AFM system. It plugs right into the Z-FI and the O2 sensor went right into the exhaust where the stock sensor was.
I'm confused. You removed the stock narrowband O2 sensor(s) from the exhaust system and disconnected these same sensors from the stock loom? Then in their place you install the Z-AFM wideband sensors which in conjunction with the Bazzaz device data-log your AFRs. And armed with this collected data you manually adjust mapping accordingly? Do the Bazzaz O2 sensors plug into the bikes stock lambda looms?
Quote from: RLSinOP on October 18, 2011, 09:00:49 PMI'll also add, that the adjustments below 4k RPM's certainly adjusted that area. No question about it.
And you have a stock ECU??
I'm trying to comprehend how this could be. Its my belief that with an unflashed ECU - which retains the stock closed loop - the ECU will override any fuelling adjustments you apply in that range (lets say its below 4k for the sake of the discussion). The next thing I'm struggling to comprehend is why you get no check engine light and no "lambda slow response" errors with the stock narrow bands disconnected?
Anybody able to unfuddle me on this?
I'm wondering the same thing, Ung. However, their website says they can tune from 0 rpms...
http://www.bazzaz.net/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_genx_img1.tpl&product_id=497&category_id=1&manufacturer_id=1&option=com_virtuemart (http://www.bazzaz.net/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=vmj_genx_img1.tpl&product_id=497&category_id=1&manufacturer_id=1&option=com_virtuemart)
Here's the deal...
During the Z-FI install, the factory O2 sensors are both disconnected but not removed from the pipes (I guess you could remove them if you had plugs to install into the pipes where the sensors screw in). Bazzaz supplies two O2 eliminators that plug in to where the factory sensors plugged in. So, the factory sensors were left in the pipes, but were disconnected and had Bazzaz O2 eliminators put in their place.
Now...
When I installed the Z-AFM system, it came with one (yes 1, not 2) new O2 sensor. I removed one of the disconnected factory O2 sensors from the pipe (Bazzaz suggested the sensor for the rear cylinder), and screwed in the new Bazzaz sensor, which connects to the Z-FI system collecting air/fuel data.
As for my ECU, yes, it's stock. As for why no "check engine light", it's because the Bazzaz O2 eliminators are there to let the ECU know "everything is fine". As for how it controls air/fuel below 4K, the Bazzaz FI unit comes with a wiring harness that directly connects to each cylinders injection port. So the Bazzaz unit can control air/fuel at any TPS/RMP level.
^^ Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like Bazazz has a very good system. Do you feel that this is a better system than PCV? What are the options for tuning? Is it completely customizable?
Quote from: RLSinOP on October 19, 2011, 05:34:44 PM
Here's the deal...
During the Z-FI install, the factory O2 sensors are both disconnected but not removed from the pipes (I guess you could remove them if you had plugs to install into the pipes where the sensors screw in). Bazzaz supplies two O2 eliminators that plug in to where the factory sensors plugged in. So, the factory sensors were left in the pipes, but were disconnected and had Bazzaz O2 eliminators put in their place.
I see. So these Bazzaz O2 "eliminators" must output a constant voltage causing the stock ECU to believe everything is always in order......
Quote from: RLSinOP on October 19, 2011, 05:34:44 PMAs for my ECU, yes, it's stock. As for why no "check engine light", it's because the Bazzaz O2 eliminators are there to let the ECU know "everything is fine". As for how it controls air/fuel below 4K, the Bazzaz FI unit comes with a wiring harness that directly connects to each cylinders injection port. So the Bazzaz unit can control air/fuel at any TPS/RMP level.
OK.... I'm beginning to get this..... ;D
Lets compare PCV method to Bazzaz:
PCV's problem is that they use "optimizers" which merely modify the output of the stock O2 sensor's feedback to the ECU. Though they are effective in "tricking" the ECU into fuelling a little more, the closed loop range is still kept within the rigid (if now fattened up 13.6:1 threshold vs 14.7:1 stock AFR) fuelling parameters laid out in the ECU's mapping for the rpm range within closed loop. And the problem? Well if within your PCV you dial in added fuel in the closed loop rpm range..... the stock lambdas ("optimized" though they are) report this overfuelling and shout "RICH!" back to the ECU.... which will then lean things out again to bring fuelling back within its targeted range. In short: PCV adds fuel, O2s report the added fuel, ECU leans it back out. A self defeating circle.
Bazzaz's O2 "eliminators" seemingly allow a greater degree of deviousness however [evil].
In the closed loop these eliminators are reporting to the ECU "nothing to see here". Not too lean, not too rich. Everything's Goldilocks 8).
And so.....when you dial in added fuel within the Bazzaz in the closed loop rpm range..... thats what you get! Coz even if you add 50% more fuel (obviously I'm exaggerating) the "eliminators" will continue to tell their pretty lies to the ECU, causing the ECU to be blissfully unaware that such evilness is occurring. Bloody brilliant [thumbsup].
I was skeptical in the beginning, but if I've understood this correctly Bazzaz its a superior solution to PCV, IMHO.
Quote from: RLSinOP on October 19, 2011, 05:34:44 PMWhen I installed the Z-AFM system, it came with one (yes 1, not 2) new O2 sensor. I removed one of the disconnected factory O2 sensors from the pipe (Bazzaz suggested the sensor for the rear cylinder), and screwed in the new Bazzaz sensor, which connects to the Z-FI system collecting air/fuel data.
This is the only shortcoming. You're data logging AFRs only from the rear cylinder. In my experience - and that of others here - significantly different fuelling is sought by the rear cylinder than is ideal for the front cylinder. In PCV you can create independent maps for each cylinder, whether created in an "advanced" Dynotune-run or as I do, with dual Autotune.
So would it be possible to make a map based on the needs of the rear cylinder, then change the placement of the sensor to the front and take another reading, compare the two and make a map that is suitable for both cyl? And why would the rear cyl need a very different map? Both cyl should have the same bore, stroke, and cam design. The two cylinders should be mapped the same in my mind. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: Arachnosold1er on October 20, 2011, 12:30:57 PM
So would it be possible to make a map based on the needs of the rear cylinder, then change the placement of the sensor to the front and take another reading, compare the two and make a map that is suitable for both cyl?
Yes, you could do that and arrive at an average result which was pretty damn close for both but absolutely perfect for neither.
Quote from: Arachnosold1er on October 20, 2011, 12:30:57 PMAnd why would the rear cyl need a very different map? Both cyl should have the same bore, stroke, and cam design. The two cylinders should be mapped the same in my mind. Please correct me if I am wrong.
You're wrong. Kinda :). Think of it as 2x near identical single cylinder engines... operating in different environments with different heating/cooling characteristics and different exhaust headers...
There's plenty of work around here that outlines why independent fuelling maps for each cylinder is considered best practice. That said, running a single averaged map isnt gonna hurt anything. Maybe search for "PCV".... "Autotune"... "advanced dynotune"... Here's a short discussion about single vs dual mapping on another board >> http://www.ducati.ms/forums/56-superbikes/22554-dyno-tuning-superbike-regular-advanced-map.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/56-superbikes/22554-dyno-tuning-superbike-regular-advanced-map.html)
PCV with a flashed ECU (with the O2 sensors removed) still seems like the ideal solution since you can independently tune both cylinders across the entire RPM range.
Quote from: asherrick on October 20, 2011, 03:08:19 PM
PCV with a flashed ECU (with the O2 sensors removed) still seems like the ideal solution since you can independently tune both cylinders across the entire RPM range.
^^ Second best option IMO.
Fully custom mapped ECU reflash is the ideal solution. But few of us have access to a Rexxer-type ECU tuning facility. So for most of us, second best is the best readily available solution, yes.
+ for Bazazz:
The closed loop seems to be effectively "eliminated" without the need for an ECU reflash. Tuning throughout the entire rpm range is therefore possible.
- for Bazazz:
Looks like you can only run a single map over both cylinders (unless you fitted 2x bazazz, one for each cylinder [evil]).
+ for PCV:
Dual mapping possible.
- for PCV:
But mapping over the entire rpm range is not possible.... (unless you also have the ECU reflashed to delete the stock closed loop).
Regarding the two cylinders, the software that controls the Z-FI has the ability apply a positive or negative setting to the "other" cylinder, which in my case, would be the front. One of the posts said something to the degree of "get the mapping you want, then put the sensor in the other cylinder and collect data by running the AFM to see the difference". That's exactly what I would (and may) do. When I talked to Bazzaz about which cylinder, they suggested that if I get it mapped to the rear, and then lean out the front by 5%, it was their experience I'd be very close. That's how I have it set - 5% lean on the front, rear mapped to the AFM collection. Understand that this is a positive or negative front cylinder influence based on, in my case, the rear cylinder map. It's not a dedicated map for the front cylinder, but rather a %age change based on the rear cylinder map.
For what it's worth, just like the "other cylinder" the software also gives you the ability to apply a positive or negative setting to each gear if necessary.
I suggest that you go to the Bazzaz website and download the software. You can run it without a Bazzaz system. You can load up a fuel map and "turn all the knobs" - I'm sure you'll better understand what I'm saying if you do. They also have some great online videos that do an excellent job of explaining how to collect and tweak the software that was really helpful.
Hope that helps.
Quote from: RLSinOP on October 20, 2011, 06:22:54 PM
Regarding the two cylinders, the software that controls the Z-FI has the ability apply a positive or negative setting to the "other" cylinder, which in my case, would be the front. One of the posts said something to the degree of "get the mapping you want, then put the sensor in the other cylinder and collect data by running the AFM to see the difference". That's exactly what I would (and may) do. When I talked to Bazzaz about which cylinder, they suggested that if I get it mapped to the rear, and then lean out the front by 5%, it was their experience I'd be very close. That's how I have it set - 5% lean on the front, rear mapped to the AFM collection. Understand that this is a positive or negative front cylinder influence based on, in my case, the rear cylinder map. It's not a dedicated map for the front cylinder, but rather a %age change based on the rear cylinder map.
Thats pretty much what I had in mind. I would'nt use a set percentage to modify the "other" cylinder by, but rather use real data by moving the sensor to the other cyl and take a reading.
Quote from: ungeheuer on October 20, 2011, 02:35:42 PM
Yes, you could do that and arrive at an average result which was pretty damn close for both but absolutely perfect for neither.
You're wrong. Kinda :). Think of it as 2x near identical single cylinder engines... operating in different environments with different heating/cooling characteristics and different exhaust headers...
Yeah, I forgot to take into consideration temp and exhaust. I am used to tuning cars where both banks are running nearly the same. I don't think that you can ever get a map "perfect". Outside air temp, humidity, altitude and other conditions are constantly changing and have a big effect on how your engine performs. I am not racing, so 1/10th of a HP makes no difference to me. That being said, If I can get "pretty damn close" to perfect I would be happy. I think that the Bazzaz system is looking like a great alternative to PCV. Possibly even better than. Seems to be a cheaper option too.
< big honkin' bookmark! >
Thank you, I like it!! As mentioned earlier it was recommended to me by someone with a lot more street riding experience than myself. Now, if only you can get yours set up and store the map and share? lol!! I won't be getting the AFM, unless...someone lends me one, hehehe. Ciao
I wonder if you can eliminate the POS flapper motor using Bazzaz? That would be awesome. I think I have decided that the Bazzaz will be my next mod. I just dropped the hammer on some Arrows so I will have to work a little OT to make my next purchase.
Smart fella that designer and his engineers!! Especially with what they have done with the TC unit!!
Quote from: Arachnosold1er on October 23, 2011, 07:26:16 PM
I wonder if you can eliminate the POS flapper motor using Bazzaz? That would be awesome. I think I have decided that the Bazzaz will be my next mod. I just dropped the hammer on some Arrows so I will have to work a little OT to make my next purchase.
you can already get rid of it with a duc.ee. but you'll need to get a 696 midpipe to get rid of the whole thing.
Yeah, I already know about the Duc-E.E. But, It would be nice to not need it. Just one more thing to cram under the seat along with the Bazzaz unit.
Duc.ee is smaller than a tic-tac box...
(http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/tictac0902_228x348.jpg)
The Bazzaz Z-FI unit actually fit's right on top of the ECU, under the gas tank. Based on the wiring harness provided, that's the only place you can put it. You actually have to take the tank panels off, and remove the gas tank to install the unit. A word of advice - when I removed the gas tank, I didn't actually remove the fuel lines and laid the tank sideways on the frame. The metal tabs the hold down the tank scratched up my lovely red frame. I had to touch that up with the right color of paint, which is another discussion thread all together. If you're not going to completely remove the tank, I highly suggest putting a towel or blanket under the tank while you work - it's got some nasty metal edges looking for virgin red paint.
As for the Z-AFM unit, I have it located on the right side of the bike zip-tied to the Z-FI wiring harness behind the frame - I can take a pic if necessary. You can't put it in the tool tray due to wiring harness connections.
Bump, to check if any other Monster tamers have gone down the Bazzaz route to liven up their beasts? I am sitting on the fence still between this, a custom reflash, and the dynojet..??
Don't have any local tuners in Singapore so this still looks the best and most cost effective way... Any 1100 riders able to give their thoughts?
Just got of speaking with Bazzaz and no system available for the 08-2010 1100... 😡 They have 696/796/Evo, but nought for the best of the bunch.😢
If they have enough people request apparently they will start working, so if anybody knows a good spammer point them to Bazzaz.com (kidding!!)
Any thoughts on the Rexxer as a tuner? or is it just to reflash? I couldn't find much on that in English that is current, and while I emailed with Chris at Daniele-moto would like a users opinion... I guess DynoJet is the only other option?
Quote from: monsterdan on January 27, 2012, 09:55:15 AM
Just got of speaking with Bazzaz and no system available for the 08-2010 1100... 😡 They have 696/796/Evo, but nought for the best of the bunch.😢
If they have enough people request apparently they will start working, so if anybody knows a good spammer point them to Bazzaz.com (kidding!!)
Any thoughts on the Rexxer as a tuner? or is it just to reflash? I couldn't find much on that in English that is current, and while I emailed with Chris at Daniele-moto would like a users opinion... I guess DynoJet is the only other option?
Search this forum for Rexxer you will get an ear/eye full.
Quote from: monsterdan on January 27, 2012, 09:55:15 AM
Any thoughts on the Rexxer as a tuner? or is it just to reflash? I couldn't find much on that in English that is current, and while I emailed with Chris at Daniele-moto would like a users opinion... I guess DynoJet is the only other option?
People seem to like it because it allows you to re-flash the ECU and update it with a map... However, I think there are only one or two rexxer tuning locations in the US, so you cannot tune your bike like you could if you had the power commander, which is widely used by most Dyno tuners... You basically are stuck with what they send you.... The PC and Bazazz allow you to make changes
Thanks DoWorkSon, all the threads I found related mainly to Rexxers previous inability to disable the service indicator.
So basically... I get the Rexxer and do my own reflash based on the map they give me, or I send the ECU away and have someone else put a tuned map on, but since neither will have been designed with my environment in mind (very hot and very humid all year round) may not be optimum. So if looking for ultimate solution, adding the dynojet with Autotune will be the solution to amend/tweak the new "race" map...
Or keep stock ECU go for Dynojet pack and keep the revs above 4k at all times.... 😜
Argh... decisions decisions
I run a Micro-Tec on the Monster, but I have a Bazzaz on the Duke and couldn't be happier with the results.
Quote from: monsterdan on January 27, 2012, 06:54:28 PM
Thanks DoWorkSon, all the threads I found related mainly to Rexxers previous inability to disable the service indicator.
So basically... I get the Rexxer and do my own reflash based on the map they give me, or I send the ECU away and have someone else put a tuned map on, but since neither will have been designed with my environment in mind (very hot and very humid all year round) may not be optimum. So if looking for ultimate solution, adding the dynojet with Autotune will be the solution to amend/tweak the new "race" map...
Or keep stock ECU go for Dynojet pack and keep the revs above 4k at all times.... 😜
Argh... decisions decisions
Yeah, your last sentence sums it up.... I did a 696 with the Rexxer about $600.00. I think one thing I havent seen mentioned in this thread is having the rev limit raised which is a big improvement for the 696 motor. I don't think that's possible with using the stock ecu so if your doing a 696 make sure you reflash stock ecu & get rev limit raised. If I was going to do it now I would reflash stock ecu along with the Bazzaz & get it dyno tuned. Most of these decisions are personal opinion I'm old school & IMO a good dyno tune works better then an auto tune. I've heard real good results from auto tune but I've done so many bikes on a dyno I'll stick with it. One thing also is you can only get so much from these air cooled motors & I know the Rexxer & tune boy maps are almost spot on so for around $250.00 you can get a reflash that is fantastic & have some money left over for susp. mods or whatever. No right or wrong Rexxer, PCV, Bazzaz, are good choice.
The Bazzaz stuff works really well on the new Monsters. The only possible complaint that I could envision is that you cant map each cylinder individually. However, the trim feature compensates for this quite well.
The biggest problem with canned maps are related to the actual state of tune of each individual bike. So, when you get a flashed ECU from Mota Lab, (or DP, etc) that map works great for a bike that has a clean set of injectors and cam timing set perfectly to spec.
How many Ducati's do you guys know of that have cams timed to spec from the factory? Not many.
How many people get their injectors cleaned and flowed after leaving ethanol based gasoline in their tanks for a few months during winter? Again, not many.
The Dynojet solution does not allow for mapping at all RPM and throttle openings? Then it is less useful than the Bazzaz. Period.
I just did some pulls on a Dynojet 250 and found 84hp, 71tq, and A/F very lean. HP and TQ curves were beautiful howerver, and bike really didnt do much from 7k to 8k. I didnt go past 8k as it didnt really want to rev up there. Bike was a 2010 M1100 with Arrow header and Termi slip-ons. Mota Lab ECU flash to DP Race spec and DP slip on air filter.
I am installing the MWR power up airbox mod kit and Bazzaz Z-Fi (F191) and tuning with Bazzaz AFM.
I'll report back here when I get a minute to put it on the dyno- hoping to do this within the next week or so.
Quote from: Full_Spectrum on May 13, 2012, 06:58:04 PMThe Dynojet solution does not allow for mapping at all RPM and throttle openings? Then it is less useful than the Bazzaz. Period.
Period? Really?
I see pros and cons for both Bazzaz and Dynojet's PCV. If you have your ECU reflashed to delete the closed loop, then PCV is indeed able to be mapped throughout the entire range, independently for each cylinder. Which I'd argue is a better end game than Bazzaz.
But we're spitting hairs ;).
ok guys, here is what I have going on... I have read the couple of threads around this stuff but want to be clear.
Current Bike 09 M1100s 15K miles AMF slip-ons DP ECU and air filter
I picked up a set of the DP Cams and a PCV to install during the 15K service I am about to do. The DP ECU allowed me to remove the flapper motor and the PCV will allow me to "tune" for the cams, but it seems only over 4K RPM. And their is only 1 map on the site currently.
I have been on the lookout for an Autotune (Harley version) at a good price, but seems after reading all of this stuff I need to have my stock ECM reflashed to allow removal of stock o2's (lambdas) and use the autotune in place. If this is the case then I will have a DP ECU for sale shortly ;)
Am I on the correct path here? Anyone use the DP Cams and can report goods and bads? I know it is real common in the Hyper world to do the swap but have not seen anything on M1100s. I picked up a set for a REALLY good price from a shop that was closing and could not resist.
I checked into Bazazz but they still do not make one for the 1100s.
Quote from: scooterd145 on May 14, 2012, 09:30:11 AMThe DP ECU allowed me to remove the flapper motor
Then you must have the M1100 DP Termi Full System ECU, right?
Quote from: scooterd145 on May 14, 2012, 09:30:11 AMthe PCV will allow me to "tune" for the cams, but it seems only over 4K RPM. And their is only 1 map on the site currently
Dynojet's download site you're talking? I havent checked, but you're probably correct. They only offer "off the peg" mapping anyway, and yes only above the closed loop rpm range (4K?). Better to take your PCV along for a proper Dynotune (or run Autotune - more about that later).
Quote from: scooterd145 on May 14, 2012, 09:30:11 AMI have been on the lookout for an Autotune (Harley version) at a good price, but seems after reading all of this stuff I need to have my stock ECM reflashed to allow removal of stock o2's (lambdas) and use the autotune in place.
Not exactly. Its like this: If you want to have your PCV able to map throughout the entire rev range you would need to first have your ECU reflashed to delete the closed loop (the sub +/- 4K range which currently takes input from your lambda sensors). You could then have optimised PCV mapping set up on a Dyno throughout. Or you could fit Autotune (as have I) to achieve a similar outcome dynamically instead.
But none of this really relates to the original subject line.... so here endeth my part in the threadjack ;)
Yes on the Termi/DP full exhaust ECU
Yes on the Dynojet site
And thanks for the info Ung
(and sorry for the threadjack ;)
Quote from: ungeheuer on May 14, 2012, 04:27:23 AM
Period? Really?
I see pros and cons for both Bazzaz and Dynojet's PCV. If you have your ECU reflashed to delete the closed loop, then PCV is indeed able to be mapped throughout the entire range, independently for each cylinder. Which I'd argue is a better end game than Bazzaz.
But we're spitting hairs ;).
Yup, really. JMO, of course. [beer]
This is with no mapping and before the MWR Power Up Kit. I should have a map this weekend if I can find time, and will post results.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7094/7218045306_9f0187ea60_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57319447@N05/7218045306/)
Monster_dyno_512012_pipe_ecu (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57319447@N05/7218045306/#)
Its easy to see why stock they're so "lumpy" when you look at that nasty fuelling.
Horribly lean throughout. Begins to fuel around 3,200.... and then leans right out again as rev rise [puke].
Shouldnt be too difficult to improve on that (by whichever method turns you on) [thumbsup]
I expect the greatest improvement in better fuelling to be to the "feel" of how the power is delivered. I'm sure it will feel massively more tractable and lay down its power in a much more enjoyable way. I wouldnt expect massive increases in hp or torque though.
Quote from: ungeheuer on May 17, 2012, 09:21:29 PM
Its easy to see why stock they're so "lumpy" when you look at that nasty fuelling.
Horribly lean throughout. Begins to fuel around 3,200.... and then leans right out again as rev rise [puke].
Shouldnt be too difficult to improve on that (by whichever method turns you on) [thumbsup]
I expect the greatest improvement in better fuelling to be to the "feel" of how the power is delivered. I'm sure it will feel massively more tractable and lay down its power in a much more enjoyable way. I wouldnt expect massive increases in hp or torque though.
Yeah. I was stunned at how lean it was. It really didnt want to pull past 7k or so on the dyno, so I am thinking there will be something to come from mapping up top. In theory...
Ok, Ive done a few days of self mapping on road and went back to the dyno yesterday afternoon. It was almost 25 degrees hotter yesterday, than when I did the baseline run. Also, there were some problems with the dyno which make less comparison less than useful, unfortunately.
We had done the original runs with the O2 probe from the Dynojet 250 and we saw some crazy lean conditions- 16:1 in some places.
When we did the second set of runs with a map built @ 13:1 (using the same probe) we saw...16:1 again. So, the probe was junk. This kind of throws off anything helpful in the regard. Next, the tach lead died, so instead of hp/tq v rpm, it uses speed on the new graph. This can be compared as seen on this graph, but still an annoyance.
So, for this set of runs, I used the same rear cylinder exhaust bung that I am using with the Z-AFM, but replaced it with the Dynojet O2. As you will see from the A/F trace, it was now rich. I think that the Dynojet probe is probably off here, as the Bazzaz unit is brand new, and the Dynojet one was...seasoned.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7103/7255741694_cb4c350078_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57319447@N05/7255741694/)
Monster_dyno_5222012_pipe_ecu_Bazzaz (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57319447@N05/7255741694/#)
I did trim the front cylinder at 3%.
My main goal here was to document what gains I saw from a properly mapped bike with the MWR power up filter kit. Unfortunately, the dyno issues really do prevent a true back to back comparison in real numbers. I am really less than pleased about this deal with the dyno, but the guys at R&R were good enough to help me out and sometimes things happen beyond our control.
Riding the bike tells a different story, however. I was able to clean up the throttle everywhere, with the bike now running really cleanly from about 2500 to 8500. The mid-range is definitely stronger now, though I wont hazard a guess as to how much.
I would absolutely do the MWR mod again. Well worth the money- I think it was less than $100.
I did get to ride the bike mapped, but without the filter kit, and while it was better for sure, it didnt feel much stronger. The MWR kit is stronger for sure. I might have the opportunity to do this again all in the same day with another bike and if so will be sure to document the changes.
Mate, I've had similar unreliable experiences when attempting to get meaningful results from a "pro" dyno [roll]. Took me several attempts to get my own Autotune efforts cross-checked (but even then there were problems which meant we couldnt do all that I hoped for) [bang].
In the end I concluded that the headline hp/tq numbers were academic, just so long as the thing is fuelling as well as can be.
I bought a wideband O2 AFR probe/gauge kit like this >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-MTX-L-Wideband-O2-AFR-DIGITAL-Gauge-Kit-3844-/290591179416?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43a8958298&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-MTX-L-Wideband-O2-AFR-DIGITAL-Gauge-Kit-3844-/290591179416?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43a8958298&vxp=mtr) << so that I can crosscheck what my autotune is "sniffing". Not too pricey and worth it if you wanna know that the fuelling you're aiming for is whats being delivered. Good IMO coz you're reading it on the fly in real world conditions.
Wow, that is lean! I like how the second run looks Spectrum, as was said, as long as the mapping improves the lean problem, can't expect too much from the air-cooled beast. I'm excitedly awaiting my Z-FI from Bazzzaz it was just shipped out yesterday , yee1 :)
Quote from: ungeheuer on May 23, 2012, 02:23:44 PM
Mate, I've had similar unreliable experiences when attempting to get meaningful results from a "pro" dyno [roll]. Took me several attempts to get my own Autotune efforts cross-checked (but even then there were problems which meant we couldnt do all that I hoped for) [bang].
In the end I concluded that the headline hp/tq numbers were academic, just so long as the thing is fuelling as well as can be.
I bought a wideband O2 AFR probe/gauge kit like this >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-MTX-L-Wideband-O2-AFR-DIGITAL-Gauge-Kit-3844-/290591179416?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43a8958298&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Innovate-MTX-L-Wideband-O2-AFR-DIGITAL-Gauge-Kit-3844-/290591179416?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43a8958298&vxp=mtr) << so that I can crosscheck what my autotune is "sniffing". Not too pricey and worth it if you wanna know that the fuelling you're aiming for is whats being delivered. Good IMO coz you're reading it on the fly in real world conditions.
Yup- I have a Innovate LC1 for tuning my truck, but figured that I could use the bike stuff for this. Looks like not so much.
As long as it fuels well, I am ok with not having extracted the most possible power. I just dont have the time to invest in doing much else in this regard. Over next winter I will probably go through the engine and chasis, and that will be a better time to deal with this. For now, I want to ride in my spare time.
Now I am thinking about a 848 flywheel...
Sorry to revive this but hopefully getting my hands on some M1100EVO Boomtubes in the immediate future <fingers crossed>. This thread has served as quite the education but i am trying to summarize and see if i'm on track.
- First and foremost, the ECU needs to be reflashed (or replaced) in order to delete the closed loop (sub 4K). Is this typically a $250 spend or can this be done cheaper? Does this require shipping of the ECU or do/can some people flash on the spot? Seems like you're removing the tank panels and gas tank either way but may be left without your bike for some time while your ECU is in transit.
- Options seem to be limited to PCV or Bazzazz. Both have their pros and cons (with respect to cylinder specific mapping). It is my understanding with the PCV, you take your bike to the dyno (extra spend) in order to calibrate correctly. I'm unsure as to how this works with the Bazzazz. I presume you still need to Dyno? Does the tuner need to have Bazzazz capability?
- Are there any other parts required? With either system, do i still need to buy a Duc.EE in order not to get a CEL upon removal of the flapper motor? Any thoughts on the Vizitec unit or are they effectively the same?
Thank you for your help. [Dolph]
Quote from: gjsnyc on July 28, 2012, 05:52:43 PM
Sorry to revive this but hopefully getting my hands on some M1100EVO Boomtubes in the immediate future <fingers crossed>. This thread has served as quite the education but i am trying to summarize and see if i'm on track.
- First and foremost, the ECU needs to be reflashed (or replaced) in order to delete the closed loop (sub 4K). Is this typically a $250 spend or can this be done cheaper? Does this require shipping of the ECU or do/can some people flash on the spot? Seems like you're removing the tank panels and gas tank either way but may be left without your bike for some time while your ECU is in transit.
- Options seem to be limited to PCV or Bazzazz. Both have their pros and cons (with respect to cylinder specific mapping). It is my understanding with the PCV, you take your bike to the dyno (extra spend) in order to calibrate correctly. I'm unsure as to how this works with the Bazzazz. I presume you still need to Dyno? Does the tuner need to have Bazzazz capability?
- Are there any other parts required? With either system, do i still need to buy a Duc.EE in order not to get a CEL upon removal of the flapper motor? Any thoughts on the Vizitec unit or are they effectively the same?
Thank you for your help. [Dolph]
I felt that $250 for the ECU reflash was a decent deal, considering the investment in equipment needed to reflash ECU's is not small. In my case, Mota Lab was easy to deal with, and shipping was quick.
If you pull the ECU on Sunday evening, and Fedex it for $30, they will flash it and have it back before Friday.
I dont know if they offer a core exchange program.
If you ask them to do so, they will remove things like the o2 sensors, meaning no need for o2 optimizers of Duc.ee. Talk to them directly is my suggestion- as it always is. The forums are great for some stuff, but nothing is better than actually talking with people on the phone, imo.
But the PCV and BAzzaz have additional auto-tune or self-mapping modules, which again cost money. You best bet is to find a local, competent shop with a dyno and let them map it for you. Self-mapping works well, but nothing is better than a dyno tune- if the operator knows what they are doing.
Bottom line: Ducati's have crap fueling with stock and DP ECU. Period. You will not believe the difference in having your bike mapped with either the PCV or Bazzaz- the difference is dramatic. You will be kicking yourself for not doing it immediately.
Quote from: Full_Spectrum on August 02, 2012, 07:12:21 PM
I felt that $250 for the ECU reflash was a decent deal, considering the investment in equipment needed to reflash ECU's is not small. In my case, Mota Lab was easy to deal with, and shipping was quick.
If you pull the ECU on Sunday evening, and Fedex it for $30, they will flash it and have it back before Friday.
I dont know if they offer a core exchange program.
If you ask them to do so, they will remove things like the o2 sensors, meaning no need for o2 optimizers of Duc.ee. Talk to them directly is my suggestion- as it always is. The forums are great for some stuff, but nothing is better than actually talking with people on the phone, imo.
But the PCV and BAzzaz have additional auto-tune or self-mapping modules, which again cost money. You best bet is to find a local, competent shop with a dyno and let them map it for you. Self-mapping works well, but nothing is better than a dyno tune- if the operator knows what they are doing.
Bottom line: Ducati's have crap fueling with stock and DP ECU. Period. You will not believe the difference in having your bike mapped with either the PCV or Bazzaz- the difference is dramatic. You will be kicking yourself for not doing it immediately.
Agreed! What a difference!!! How much smoother the bike feels!! I found even the exhaust sounds quieter(cleaner sounding and less Harley like), I had to check and see if I had a dropped a cylinder or something, hahaha!!
Quote from: Full_Spectrum on August 02, 2012, 07:12:21 PM..... but nothing is better than a dyno tune- if the operator knows what they are doing.
True. If.
Bazazz now making a system for the S4Rs - amazing difference !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! their tech support is second to none !! Highly recommend it !!
Looking for an update on an old thread...
Only a couple people in this thread actually had first hand experience with the Bazzaz on the 696/796/1100 variants, I was hoping by now we may have compiled some more data?
Anyone else out there using Bazzaz with the new gen bikes? I'd like to hear from you. I'm also looking closely at the Z-Fi + QS (quickshifter) option they have. Guys swear by the Bazzaz QS on different bikes but appears no one I can find has used this setup with a Monster.
I have a ZFi on my 2012 1100EVO. Totally changed the bike. Before the low rpm (ie, below 3500) lurching had me anxious during lower speed turns on curves sections. With the mod, it's smooth, the lurching is gone and its a happier bike from what I can tell.
Only downside: mileage has gone to hell. I get the low fuel light at about 75 miles when I'm doing a combination of curvey secondaries and maybe a little super slab. It may be I'm running a little too rich, but so far I'm living with it.
Quote from: FiveG on April 24, 2013, 06:58:09 AM
Only downside: mileage has gone to hell. I get the low fuel light at about 75 miles when I'm doing a combination of curvey secondaries and maybe a little super slab. It may be I'm running a little too rich, but so far I'm living with it.
i have the bazzaz for my evo and this is exactly what I was afraid of...need to take some time one weekend and actually get it in though...
I may have another tuner look at the map and see if that can be improved.
Quote from: FiveG on April 24, 2013, 06:58:09 AM
Only downside: mileage has gone to hell. I get the low fuel light at about 75 miles when I'm doing a combination of curvey secondaries and maybe a little super slab. It may be I'm running a little too rich, but so far I'm living with it.
When i had my ecu reflashed, my mileage also dropped through the floor. So i ended up getting a PC-5 and autotune. The map i created had the bike run less rich with the throttle undr 20%, and RPM between 4,000 and 5,500 which is cruising speed. This way, i had smooth power delivery when i wanted it, and better mileage when i was not accelerating. Mileage went back up.
So how is everyone doing with whatever piggy back system you chose? I'm loving my setup.
I had MW reflash, removal of valve and O2 sensors and now the Bazzaz ZFI self tuned. The bike runs like butter, no popping, pulls hard, even smooth down low