The engine just shut down on the highway on my way home tonight. No sputtering, just dead. I tried twice to restart it but it doesn't sound right. Everything else seemed OK so now that I am home I've pulled the belt covers to find that my vertical belt is shredded. Am I screwed? Did I just bend a valve? My nearest dealer is more then 100 miles away so I won't get it there for more then a week. I am under warranty so I hope all is well but this is my pride and joy. I am just panicing I guess.
Thanks for any speculation.
Luke
That happened to my buddy's S4. He ended up having to pick up a used motor on Ebay cause his was toast.
Sorry to hear about your bad luck, especially to a fellow Wisconsiner.
Atleast you are under warranty though.
Sorry to hear that. :(
You're under warranty, so don't panic.
How many miles on your bike?
5000
ran like a top until now.
I'll call Corse Superbikes in the morning.
Quote from: LUKE on June 20, 2008, 07:50:44 PM
5000
ran like a top until now.
I'll call Corse Superbikes in the morning.
Good luck - don't let them palm you off - push _real_ hard for a warranty repair.
big
And they should come pick up the bike....
Quote from: NAKID on June 21, 2008, 01:55:04 AM
And they should come pick up the bike....
I already called Roadside Assistance to tow me home. They said they would pay the $200 for the tow but I have to be reimbursed. That seems pretty tacky but at the side of the highway with storms coming I wasn't in position to argue.
Quote from: bigiain on June 20, 2008, 09:52:14 PM
Good luck - don't let them palm you off - push _real_ hard for a warranty repair.
I really hope I don't have a fight on my hands. As you know my bike is heavily modified. Even though that has nothing to do with what happened, I'm sure someone will point out the Arrows and PC3 and get me all bothered. At least the dealer installed the PC3.
Quote from: LUKE on June 21, 2008, 04:44:31 AM
I already called Roadside Assistance to tow me home. They said they would pay the $200 for the tow but I have to be reimbursed. That seems pretty tacky but at the side of the highway with storms coming I wasn't in position to argue.
that is pretty standard. they don't have a fleet of tow trucks on the standby and they have to review your claim once you are towed.
Quote
I really hope I don't have a fight on my hands. As you know my bike is heavily modified. Even though that has nothing to do with what happened, I'm sure someone will point out the Arrows and PC3 and get me all bothered. At least the dealer installed the PC3.
i would remove the pc3. warranty hassles will be less.
a shredded belt has nothing to do with the pc3 and we all know that, but Italians do not understand what "Magneson-Moss" is.
You probably have a bent valve, a bad guide, and maybe a tweeked valve seat. None of those are very expensive. Any digs in the head or piston should be fine as long as they aren't too big. The only thing that could get expensive is if you've scratched the cylinder wall deep enough that it's beyond replating - then you give it to someone like me.
I would check the waiting list at the dealer & maybe pop the head so they could do their inspection & order parts without waiting for a tech to free up. This is a tough time of year for fast repairs at a dealership.
Sorry for your mishap and good luck on the repairs. Hopefully it won't be that bad and you will get back on the road soon. (Crossing fingerz)
I am always amazed how much knowledge there is in this community .
An appointment has been made with Corse to drop off the bike on Tuesday. Corse is a really good dealer so I am anticipating a positive experience. The only problem is that they are backed up in the shop this time of year. The guy said not to worry about returning the bike to stock. He said they have a good relationship with DNA and just to leave the mods as is.
Thanks everyone. I was just sick about the bike and got worried.
Do you think if they pull the engine they'll ship it out to paint it black? ;D
I'll let you know in a couple weeks.
Luke
If the bike has 5k miles, you're within the service interval of the original cam belts. Slam dunk. Case closed. The factory installed and tensioned the OE belts. A belt failed. Warranty covers it. NO mods affect the life of the cam belt.
I wouldn't worry about removing mods. Doesn't matter what Italians understand about warranty law, your US dealer and Ducati USA get it.
You've certainly bent stuff...
Quote from: CRASH! on June 21, 2008, 10:53:48 AM
I wouldn't worry about removing mods. Doesn't matter what Italians understand about warranty law, your US dealer and Ducati USA get it.
my comment was regarding prior experience and others who reported warranty problems when they had PCIII's installed.
legally, you are correct, but that just means he has a cause of action if they deny a warranty claim -- which means litigation costs to enforce the warranty.
i would just remove it to avoid hassles. it takes 10-20 minutes, it is not rocket science.
Good luck. Hope nothing serious is damaged. Here's a pic of a belt that shredded on me, due to being too tight. Fortunately, mine didn't slip.
(http://www.evoria.net/dad_stuff/Ducati/Belt/DSCF0004.JPG)
that's pretty much what mine looks like. [laugh]
Quote from: ducatizzzz on June 21, 2008, 11:41:42 AM
i would just remove it to avoid hassles. it takes 10-20 minutes, it is not rocket science.
It takes you 10-20 mins to remove a PCIII? I just did it, took me less than 5...
Why remove the PC3, the dealer themselves installed it, they should understand it wouldn't affect the warranty at all, or they will be admitting any incompetance in there install. I would leave it the way it is.
If it's the Arrows and PC3 you're worried about don't. If you have some other mod that could cause damage to the belts, maybe.
If the dealer mods the bike, they accept all responsibility. Unless they had you sign a waiver saying it would void your warranty.
On a side note would running open covers or just pulley covers like Rizoma's give you a warranty fight?
Quote from: NAKID on June 22, 2008, 12:45:05 AM
It takes you 10-20 mins to remove a PCIII? I just did it, took me less than 5...
i was being generous
Quote from: printman on June 22, 2008, 04:38:30 AM
Why remove the PC3, the dealer themselves installed it, they should understand it wouldn't affect the warranty at all, or they will be admitting any incompetance in there install. I would leave it the way it is.
If it's the Arrows and PC3 you're worried about don't. If you have some other mod that could cause damage to the belts, maybe.
If the dealer mods the bike, they accept all responsibility. Unless they had you sign a waiver saying it would void your warranty.
On a side note would running open covers or just pulley covers like Rizoma's give you a warranty fight?
because the warranty folks don't care what the dealers do. they are happy to deny the warranty and let you sue the dealer.
the point is to decrease the reasons for the claim to be denied, that is all. you want the situation to be as straight-forward as possible for the claims.
the dealer is happy to install non-standard parts and you are responsible if it voids the warranty. they are acting as YOUR agent, so it is no different if you did it yourself.
yes, removing the belt covers would definitely give you trouble for a fragged belt.
Quote from: NAKID on June 22, 2008, 12:45:05 AM
It takes you 10-20 mins to remove a PCIII? I just did it, took me less than 5...
Well, he should plan longer for me. I can't even find my bottle opener and cigar cutter in 5 minutes [laugh] [wine]
Post some pics and keep us informed. I am next in line behind Norm if they scrap the engine ;)
Good luck!
Frick,,,,,,,,,,, 5000 miles & the belt blew,,, thats makes me a little nervous.
Can hardly wait to see what comes of this. I am sure that you will make out ok with the warranty. Might be without your S4R for a while tho :'(
I think I am going to do a little inspection myself,,,,,better safe then sorry.
Sounds like a no brainer for warranty. make sure any and all parts damaged get replaced and not just let go because they are good enough. The motor should be returned to the condition it was in before the belt broke. If the fix is going to take too long see if the dealer or ducati can sweeten the deal for you missing the season due to faulty oem parts.
ie :big bore kit , free 6k service
It has happened before. ;)
I would also love to know why the belt failed.
Was it an over tensioned belt?
debris between the belt and pulley?
seized tensioner?
mis-aligned pulleys? (don't ask How I know about this one [bang])
be sure both belts are new when all is done.
good luck
curious do you have modded belt covers ??
thats the only warranty problem i can see
luke, last summer i made a warranty claim at Corse and it went perfectly. i found what i suspected to be a hairline crack that started in the heat affected zone of one of the welds on my swing arm. i took it corse and it took Tim, their head tech, 30 seconds to decide to warranty it. ten days later i had my bike back with a new BLACK swing arm.
tim was great to work with, when i requested a black swing arm he said he would ask DNA for one as a replacement and if not we set up an outside vendor to take care of it. he quoted me $50 to send the swing arm out to be ano'd, but DNA came through with a black piece from an s4r.
so i wouldn't freak out, just take it in, ask them about painting options if you want, and let them take care of it.
I have only heard of Ducati refusing a warranty claim on a bike with a PC is if the damage was due to fueling, ie, running extremely lean. Also, unless DNA sends someone down to inspect the bike or the dealer says something DNA wouldn't know anyway.
Quote from: Norm on June 21, 2008, 05:47:01 AM
This is a tough time of year for fast repairs at a dealership.
I hear that... my tech had like 6 bikes he had to work on before mine..and he is all by himself.. I've been anxiously waiting for my bike for 2 weeks,.......... [bang]
And after reading this thread.. I am glad that I will have the new belts installed on my bike when I pick it up!
I am sorry that you are going to miss at least 2 weeks in this whole process.... this forum will become your best friend to help you vent and get advise! I really thank you ALL for this forum! [clap]
Quote from: howie on June 22, 2008, 10:43:08 PM
I have only heard of Ducati refusing a warranty claim on a bike with a PC is if the damage was due to fueling, ie, running extremely lean. Also, unless DNA sends someone down to inspect the bike or the dealer says something DNA wouldn't know anyway.
That makes sense though. Blowing out a belt because of a PCIII doesn't..
I have had BS thrown my way on multiple occasions. Give me an aftermarket part and I'll give you an irrational analysis from a dealer.
I.E. Your PCIII was not configured right -> hence your bike was running lean -> resulted in higher than normal cylinder head temperature -> excessive heat resulted in early belt failure. Warranty void.
You're going to have to deal with this crap from dealers all the time. Dont try to fight it. Just go to a different dealer till you get the answer you want. There are some reasonable ones out there.
I'm sure that Corse will be cool about this. Good luck Luke
Slightly different cost factor, but when I told Tim my speedo needle bounced he just ordered a new cluster and didn't even bother looking at it. That was my only warranty claim but it was good.
What sucks is I'm sure you'll probably have to wait a month or more to get your bike back. Hopefully I'm wrong, cuz I find anything more than a week or two unacceptable.
BTW - Get that claim in NOW from what I remember Italy is closed in august or something
>>BTW - Get that claim in NOW from what I remember Italy is closed in august or something
Isn't it DNA's responsibility to sort out a belt failure on a 'bike with 5000 miles ??
I think what EEL was referring to would be the parts may be shipped on a slow boat from italy and it will take longer to get the bike up and running again. If the claim was made while in warranty there will be no problem with who is paying.
just remind your dealer that we do not get the month of august off and you should not have to wait an excessive amount of time for parts.
The bike is in Milwaukee as of this morning. I feel better now that it's there and I guess I'm just being a pansey about it.
Shit happens
Quote from: LUKE on June 24, 2008, 11:35:44 AM
The bike is in Milwaukee as of this morning. I feel better now that it's there and I guess I'm just being a pansey about it.
Shit happens
Go the the Beer thread that always makes me smile. Did Corse truck it for free?
Sorry for the lack of clarity on my part. DNA does not have a local warehouse of parts like it used to in the United States. Most parts are shipped from Italy directly. They started this policy a couple of years ago. If you dont get your parts order in early enough , literally all of italy comes to a screeching halt in august. Then you're screwed because of backlogged orders ducati playing catch up.
Well it has been over 3 weeks without my Monster and I am no closer to getting it back. Corse said they had to wait for the claim inspector before they could get it repaired, and then he denied my warranty claim. The dealer gave me DNA's phone number and I've been dealing with them for 8 days now.
The dealer has been great to deal with. Even the general manager has called me back and placed several calls in my behalf.
DNA, not so much.
Last week Monday they said they wouldn't finish reviewing my case for 48 hours and I should expect a call.
No call Wed.
Left message Thursday, no call back
After several calls I got in contact with the gal at DNA. She told me that they believe that I was running without covers and my claim is denied. OK but how about that I've always had cam covers on the bike? Just under 5000 miles on a 2007 S4R that never ran without belt covers and I have to pay for a top end rebuild because someone that I can't speak with thinks that I didn't have covers. I asked for their decision in writing as well as the inspector’s notes and any photographical evidence they had to be emailed to me immediately.
She said that she'll kick it up to the boss and I'll get a call within the next couple hours.
No call back.
I had been as courteous as I can be to this point but this morning my message was much more impatient. My contact at DNA left me a message to let me know that she was sorry and I will definitely get a call from the boss to help me this afternoon. At 10min to 5PST I left another message to PLEASE call me back.
So I finally get on the phone with DNA and they tell me that THEY WILL NOT COVER MY CLAIM. It is their opinion that the damage to the belt was caused by debris that got caught behind the belt covers and damaged the belt. Because I took off my belt covers at home to inspect the damage before I brought it down to the shop they said to bad for me.
Facts:
I had belt covers on the bike.
No debris came out from behind them when I took them off.
Were they the stock covers or aftermarket CF covers on the bike? No comment.
Both the intake valves are bent.
Either way I am high and dry so I haven’t even got parts ordered yet.
Let this be a lesson to all of you to put on your stock belt covers and check your belt occasionally.
For me it'll be $1500.
DNA said they would email me their evidence. Too bad.
If the belt is snapped clean with no other obvious damage, then DNA has a point. But, if it's obviously overheated and generally disintegrated over the entire belt, you should point that out to them and ask them to reconsider.
The will send me the pictures that they are using to make their decision. He said the wear came from the outside of the belt and there are marks on the case to show where "something" jammed. :(
Luke - Corse from what I have heard is among the best dealers in the midwest, they should help you with this!
DNA cannot determine if the covers were on or off - it is your word (and Corses) against a ghost agent. Keep fighting. Go up the chain at DNA. I wish I had a high name for you to call, but I don't.
This is at least the 4th case of this on the DML/DMF that I have read since 2003, and all have been on bikes with less than 6k on them (ie new bikes too tight from the factory). Print the poster in your thread's story, and go over to the DML and dig up 1 or 2 more. Ask DNA why they were covered, and ask for the proof of no covers in writing.
If you are still stuck, I would work with corse on a trade in or buy out or something - 1500 is too much for a repair that should not have happened!
good luck
mitt
holy shit.
hard to believe.
do you have photos of your bike with covers?
if you were running with aftermarket covers, they have to prove that they were the source of the failure (i.e. that they let something in).
if your covers were on and they cover the same amount as the stock ones, then it should be easy to demonstrate.
cripes, i haven't had covers on my bike in ages. since i bought it, i think! yikes.
Oh man this makes me ill, I really hope this works out for you. Makes my blood boil. >:(
Luke didn't Corse inspect your bike at the 600 mile inspection?
Quote from: Ducatiloo on July 14, 2008, 06:41:06 PM
Luke didn't Corse inspect your bike at the 600 mile inspection?
The new 2007+ maintenance schedule doesn't require much for 600 miles inspection so I had a good local dealer perform the service. Corse had it at 1000 miles when the installed the PC3 but surely wouldn't look at the belts just to put it on the dyno.
Either way I don't hold Corse resposible as I see it. This is Ducati's decision.
Even if i spend the money to do this I will have to have it back less then 2 months later for the 7500 mile service. You remember the service that is supposed to cost 50% less for 2007 and later bikes then it used to. [sarcastic smiley]
Is there someone here I can send the head to for repair? Is this a job I could tackle myself with normal tools and the manual? If I'm looking at spending over $2000 between the repair and maintenance in the next 2 months just to put it away for winter, I may have to consider any cost cutting options available.
Quote from: LUKE on July 14, 2008, 07:01:38 PM
Is there someone here I can send the head to for repair? Is this a job I could tackle myself with normal tools and the manual? If I'm looking at spending over $2000 between the repair and maintenance in the next 2 months just to put it away for winter, I may have to consider any cost cutting options available.
pm ducvet
Ducati = "Luxury Brand"
You certainly pay for it.
I would gear up for a fight, personally. You pay for what you get, and you're getting screwed right now (IMO)
Good luck [beer]
Adam
You could get these for that price Testarosso heads (http://www.mbpducati.ca/index.htm?cylinderheads.htm~mainFrame)
If you rattle enough cages at the corporate level, 1500.00 is peanuts. I had a Ford Lightning that was lightly modified...still got Ford to warranty the motor. Ford sent a rep to inspect the truck and starting running his mouth how a High flow air filter / exhaust, there was burned rubber in the wheelwells (abuse) were contributors to the failure. I said BS....needless to say they replaced the short block on their dime.
Would they void the warranty for changing the spark plugs to a different brand? They would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that failure was due in part to your negligence. Mechanical parts fail and if the part is within its' service limitations and fails they need to warranty it or prove otherwise.
Quote from: Ducatiloo on July 14, 2008, 07:36:58 PM
You could get these for that price Testarosso heads (http://www.mbpducati.ca/index.htm?cylinderheads.htm~mainFrame)
[evil] [thumbsup]
Adam
I think if you keep at it, you will eventually get what's right. Ducati is a lot like VW. They have shit service and you have to fight for anything significant.
Corse should really be the ones fighting DNA for you, not you personally (IMO). Experiences like this turn people off from a brand entirely.
Maybe you get lucky and Corse covers it and continues fighting DNA for reimbursement.
Me, if it came down to it, I'd trash the bike and buy some other make after getting hosed like this.
Sorry to hear what you're going through. Same thing happened to me and I never once got the slightest run around. And my warranty was due the day I dropped it off.(around the same time your's went down)
BTW - I removed my covers , thats how I found out the lock nut was off on the vertical. I told the dealer that too, never did I get questioned once, Everything was replaced @ their cost.
seems to me if you publish all the info publicly and whomever the contact person is gets a lot of angry calls/emails/letters from Ducati owners, it might make a difference.
if you had belt covers on, there is no way something could have gotten in unless they were cut open. period
moreover, the owner's manual doesn't say you have to leave them on, does it? i would argue the belt covers are as a safety measure for the owner and it is not clear htey are to protect the belts (weak, but arguable)
just seems to be VERY lame.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 15, 2008, 05:39:00 AM
if you had belt covers on, there is no way something could have gotten in unless they were cut open. period
Not necessarily true, my S4R (with 5500 miles) had bits of sand and a pebble and stuff in there when I pulled the covers to do the belts the other day ... Unless the previous owner sabotaged it [laugh]
Adam
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on July 15, 2008, 05:44:30 AM
Not necessarily true, my S4R (with 5500 miles) had bits of sand and a pebble and stuff in there when I pulled the covers to do the belts the other day ... Unless the previous owner sabotaged it [laugh]
Adam
that's a great point. stock covers?
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 15, 2008, 05:49:58 AM
that's a great point. stock covers?
Yes, and they had never been off the bike since '04 (5500 miles)
Adam
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on July 15, 2008, 05:52:19 AM
Yes, and they had never been off the bike since '04 (5500 miles)
Adam
seems to me if the stock covers let debris in, then DNA has a high standard of proof to show that identical (or similar) aftermarket covers are at fault.
Quote from: ducatizzzz on July 15, 2008, 05:54:05 AM
seems to me if the stock covers let debris in, then DNA has a high standard of proof to show that identical (or similar) aftermarket covers are at fault.
My question is this: In stock configuration, isn't the bike warrantied to perform to a certain standard (ie "not grenading the engine") for the duration of the warranty term under normal use?
I mean, it's a kevlar reinforced belt, unless you used it as a stunt bike in the movie dune I can't imagine how much stuff really got in there ... But then again, how much do you need? Hmm...
Adam
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on July 15, 2008, 05:56:18 AM
My question is this: In stock configuration, isn't the bike warrantied to perform to a certain standard (ie "not grenading the engine") for the duration of the warranty term under normal use?
I mean, it's a kevlar reinforced belt, unless you used it as a stunt bike in the movie dune I can't imagine how much stuff really got in there ... But then again, how much do you need? Hmm...
Adam
good points
my point is that if your bike, with stock covers, let in sand and a pebble, then those can be assumed to be "less than lethal" for a belt. Thus, if he had aftermarket covers, they'd need to be loose or open enough to allow in something greater than sand and a pebble.
Also, if something got in, and the covers were on, where is this object? if the covers were on, even if they were a little open, where is this object that penetrated and blew up the belt?
the sad part is that to fight them, you'll need to get someone to look at it and i doubt they'll do it for free...
The money and bad experience is bad but that's not the worst of it. Above all I love that damn bike and if I want to ride it before the season ends I best going on it. Even if I win this fight I already have the feeling that it could be another few weeks of fighting just to order parts and wait 3 more weeks to fix it and get it back to me. i would have a lot more fight in me if this was October and it was 38* here in Wisconsin. Right now i want my bike back.
That sucks man, I feel your pain. My 08 KLR 650 has been parked since eight months after I received it because it burns a quart of oil every 500 miles. You have to fight the good fight but its not an easy fight.
Good luck to you and keep us posted on your inevitable victory!
Sorry to hear about it. I'd be talking to whoever did your first service, it sounds to me like someone dropped a screw or something when doing the belt inspection. I got my bike back from my first service and 3 screws were missing and all of the remaining screws were loose. That's why I do all of my own work now. I also run open belt covers, I see (and inspect) my belts every time I ride and I'll change them long before the schedule.
On another note, if Ducati agreed to your claim tomorrow you probably won't have the bike on the road for three to six months. Ducati maintains very little parts inventory in the U.S. and they're notoriously slow with delivery. To add to the pain, Italy is essentially closed until September...
Quote from: bigtime on July 15, 2008, 04:13:50 PM
To add to the pain, Italy is essentially closed until September...
:-[
I lose twice
some guy at Ducati:
Thank you for taking the time to speak with us yesterday regarding the warranty claim on your 2007 Ducati Monster S4R. While we sympathize with your current position regarding your Ducati Monster however, it has been determined that the problem you experienced is not due to a defect in materials or workmanship. Therefore, the repairs will not be covered under warranty.
The Ducati limited warranty details the specific terms of coverage that apply to every new Ducati motorcycle, for a period of two years from the date of original sale. For your reference I have attached a highlighted copy of the 2007 Ducati Limited Warranty. Please review all of the highlighted sections as they apply directly to your situation.
Ducati must adhere to its warranty policies in a uniform and consistent manner that is fair to all customers. We apologize if this issue cannot be resolved to your satisfaction.
I assure you that Ducati makes every effort to provide the highest level of customer service possible. Unfortunately, at this time Ducati must consider this determination final. It is our hope that you understand our position and continue to remain a loyal Ducati enthusiast.
Kind regards,
Mike Norman
Technical Representative-
Customer Service
Me:
Mr. Norman
I would like to reiterate my extreme dissatisfaction in your decision. I will also expect you to provide me the visual evidenced and inspector's notes that you have used to come to your decision just as you agreed to do during our conversation.
I actually have been a loyal Ducati enthusiast and have purchased two new Ducatis over the last three years. I have also spent a significant amount of money on official Ducati accessories and gear. Besides my fiscal investment I have been a part of the Ducati community and enthusiastically introduced many people to the brand in my market.
On a personal note I now feel foolish for caring so much about a company and promoting a brand that has decided that only the bottom line is important and not the people involved. This process has been a disappointment from the start.
Furthermore I reject your attempt to finalize this matter as I do not agree with your theory OR see it as relevant. At this time you have not taken the necessary steps to prove your theory and I am not in agreement with your findings or decision.
Please reconsider your stance on this matter and take action in my behalf and I will continue to be an enthusiastic owner of Ducati motorcycles.
I am assuming this means I'm cooked and should start sucking it up. :'(
It means you may need to pay a consultation fee to an attorney who is knowledgeable about the warranty laws in your state.
Mr. Norman hasn't replied to your last letter right? IMHO would wait until he does to take legal action.
Quote from: Hedgehog on July 15, 2008, 04:50:53 PM
It means you may need to pay a consultation fee to an attorney who is knowledgeable about the warranty laws in your state.
I hate to use the word attorney, but in this case, it might be the best option. I would still collect ALL the instances of this happening you can find - pm the members in your thread that have first hand experience and get their names and any other related info.
The rep said in his letter consistency is neccessary, and you already have 2 examples here were Ducati stepped up, so according to his theory, you should get help too.
mitt
Same guy at Ducati:
I am very sorry that you are not satisfied with our decision.
We inspected your motorcycle carefully and found no defect in materials or workmanship from the factory that would cause such a failure. As we agreed during our discussion, belts do not “just fail†in a manner as your belt has failed. There is evidence on the crankcase of a foreign object that was trapped between the engine case and the belt. There is further evidence that the belt covers that were on the motorcycle at the time of the dealer’s inspection were not those that were on the motorcycle at the time the belt failed.
Since no part of the motorcycle failed as a result of materials or workmanship from the factory, the Ducati Limited Warranty does not apply. Once again, we can sympathize these repairs are costly. However, the evidence I have discussed suggests that the cause of the belt failure is a result of foreign debris that was introduced due to alternate belt covers or lack of belt covers. The absence of the correct belt covers allowed debris to enter the belt area and cause this failure.
Ducati has made their best effort to resolve this issue amicably and we have attempted to explain our position and conclude this matter in a reasonable and professional manner. Ducati must consider this issue closed.
Regards,
Does anyone else the dmf have dealer documented belt failure due to the wrong tension?
Only problem is there was no debris when I removed the belt covers. Just chunks of belt. ???
I wish he would show me his evidence. I'll have to wait a week to drive 100 miles to see my bike.
Quote from: LUKE on July 15, 2008, 06:06:09 PM
Only problem is there was no debris when I removed the belt covers. Just chunks of belt. ???
I wish he would show me his evidence. I'll have to wait a week to drive 100 miles to see my bike.
A motion for discovery would probably help that process along
*coughAdam
Quote from: LUKE on July 15, 2008, 06:06:09 PM
Only problem is there was no debris when I removed the belt covers. Just chunks of belt. ???
And that, along with several clear 10x12 pictures of the broken belts and your aftermarket covers, is exactly what you are going to have to swear to in front of the small claims judge after you've spoken to an attorney. He will tell you whether you really have a case or not, and he will also caution you not to act like you're an attorney. Listen to every thing he says.
NOTE: I am not an attorney. This is not legal advice.
unreal.
At this point I would politely deny this damage not a defect/workmanship issue in writing, not e mail. Insist they send another "expert" to inspect the bike. If your vehicle was dealer maintained supply copies of those records. If the problem is due to poor work done by an authorized dealer it is their problem. Do consult a lawyer for advice, but don't have an attorney send a letter yet. If you need to, have your dealer fix the bike while fighting. Do take photos (real film) and save all old parts. Customer paid, you are entitled to keep all the old parts.
Keep in mind an employee inspected the bike who may want to impress the boss. One person does not always represent a company.
i have a question. are you running aftermarket covers? ive read the thread, but maybe i missed it. i see that mr norm states that they have evidence that the belt covers that were on the bike during the inspection were not the ones installed when the incident occured. how exactly did they come to that conclusion? if its lack of belt parts inside the covers, well thats just lame because the first thing i would do if i thought i broke a belt would be to pull the covers to check the belts, they are not attached with tamper proof screws and the tool is provided in the factory toolkit,(i myself dont run belt covers) i dont see how they can base a claim off of missing debris.
I'd sure be interested as well to see the damage to the crankcase from the foreign material.
If the dealer (Corse) won't cover it, and DNA won't cover it, claim it on insurance? Maybe pick it up from Corse, put it in your truck, and drop it off on I43 near the 2rivers exit at 80mph. Then stop at Team, and buy an S3
Quote from: LUKE on July 15, 2008, 06:01:42 PM
Same guy at Ducati:
Ducati has made their best effort to resolve this issue amicably and we have attempted to explain our position and conclude this matter in a reasonable and professional manner. Ducati must consider this issue closed.
Regards,
This is where I call BS. I know someone else already pointed out that 1 person may not be the voice of the entire company and I have to agree with that. This guy is a technical service rep or something like and seems to be making a decision above his pay grade. Either way again, I really feel for you having to deal with this crap.
Any updates here?
I read a story not to long ago about a car dealership (major US brand) that did something like this to an old retired Army guy.
Dude drove out in the street, popped the hood, and lit the thing on FIRE. I'm not suggesting that, but damn.
Quote from: LUKE on July 15, 2008, 04:35:06 PM
some guy at Ducati:
Ducati must adhere to its warranty policies in a uniform and consistent manner that is fair to all customers. We apologize if this issue cannot be resolved to your satisfaction.
Kind regards,
Mike Norman
Technical Representative-
Customer Service
I'm thinking a reply to Mr. Norman with this sentence highlighted, accompanied by three or four letters from owners documenting their "no questions asked" warranty claims, ON A LETTERHEAD FROM A LAWYER, would give Mr. Norman some pause for refection.
btw, was your CF cover DP or aftermarket? Installed by a dealer or by you? IMO if the answer to both is the former, I don't think Ducati has a leg to stand on. I thought only BMW pulled this kind of shit. I would also get Corse involved as someone preveiously suggested. In a case involving pitted wheel on my BMW F650, which several owners had warrantied, that's what it took. It was originally declined on the basis of my "poor maintenance and improper cleaning." Once I pointed out to the dealer that a) my bike was never dirtier than when I picked it up from THEM and b) that my 1970 R60/5 had managed 30 years without pitted wheels and my F650 hadn't made a single one, the dealer was on the horn to the service rep and my wheels were replaced. And that was BEFORE I found the TSB re: improper finishing from San Remo, the OEM manufacture.
And lastly, when all is said and done, a link to this thread for Mr. Norman's boss' email might give you a little satisfaction, if nothing else. Good Luck.
Quote from: howie on July 15, 2008, 07:15:34 PM
Keep in mind an employee inspected the bike who may want to impress the boss. One person does not always represent a company.
+1
I think more and more companies are using the insurance company model: the first step up from the cold-call telemarketers is the "NO" dept. Just like David Spade in the credit card commercials, they have a whole division of folks whose job is to deny initial claims. Make some noise and you get past them to somone who can actually make a decision.
QuoteDo consult a lawyer for advice, but don't have an attorney send a letter yet.
I don't know why, IMO a letter like the one I suggested above would end the matter, pronto. It may be $200-$300 down the drain, but it also might $200 vs $1500. The choice for Ducati is paying Corse $600-$800 to repair your bike or pay to fly a lawyer in for a day, go to court, and possibly STILL end up paying the $600 to repair your bike.
Quote from: dlearl476 on July 27, 2008, 08:07:34 PM
<snip>
I don't know why, IMO a letter like the one I suggested above would end the matter, pronto. It may be $200-$300 down the drain, but it also might $200 vs $1500. The choice for Ducati is paying Corse $600-$800 to repair your bike or pay to fly a lawyer in for a day, go to court, and possibly STILL end up paying the $600 to repair your bike.
My experience is manufacturers prefer to come out looking like a good guy, not a looser. There is still time for the lawyer's letter.
I don't understand why you folks keep going on that this is a Ducati warranty issue. The facts don't show any hardware failure within the system or evidence of premature belt failure. Without evidence to the contrary, no lawyer is going be able to make a case.
I assume DNA provided photos of the damage to the case and the wear on the belt supports evidence of FOD. If there was another failure that caused the belt to fail DNA would have identified it. But more importantly, Luke AND Corse would have found the evidence and presented it to DNA. The belt system is easy to inspect and any pulley failure, broken bolt, etc. would be apparent. If the belt was too tight, that's a 600 mile maintenance issue and the shop that performed the work is at fault.
When you introduce an after market belt cover it presents risk. Improper installation, inadequate clearance, inadequate protection from debris and elements. Why should DNA be on the hook for a modification to such a sensitive area? Every time someone is denied warranty work it's a conspiracy. That's not my experience, many of us have had satisfactory warranty work performed.
Quote from: bigtime on July 28, 2008, 09:07:17 AM
I don't understand why you folks keep going on that this is a Ducati warranty issue. The facts don't show any hardware failure within the system or evidence of premature belt failure. Without evidence to the contrary, no lawyer is going be able to make a case.
I assume DNA provided photos of the damage to the case and the wear on the belt supports evidence of FOD. If there was another failure that caused the belt to fail DNA would have identified it. But more importantly, Luke AND Corse would have found the evidence and presented it to DNA. The belt system is easy to inspect and any pulley failure, broken bolt, etc. would be apparent. If the belt was too tight, that's a 600 mile maintenance issue and the shop that performed the work is at fault.
When you introduce an after market belt cover it presents risk. Improper installation, inadequate clearance, inadequate protection from debris and elements. Why should DNA be on the hook for a modification to such a sensitive area? Every time someone is denied warranty work it's a conspiracy. That's not my experience, many of us have had satisfactory warranty work performed.
The best proof would seem to be the belt adjusters themselves. Did anyone measure their position after the failure to prove they were too tight ? What was the result?
Quote from: sss on July 28, 2008, 06:56:51 PM
The best proof would seem to be the belt adjusters themselves. Did anyone measure their position after the failure to prove they were too tight ? What was the result?
that wouldn't tell you anything, belt tension is relative and you can't tell it from the position of the tensioner, only from the belt itself.
Quote from: bigtime on July 28, 2008, 09:07:17 AM
I assume DNA provided photos of the damage to the case and the wear on the belt supports evidence of FOD.
Quote from: LUKE on July 15, 2008, 04:35:06 PM
Mr. Norman
I would like to reiterate my extreme dissatisfaction in your decision. I will also expect you to provide me the visual evidenced and inspector's notes that you have used to come to your decision just as you agreed to do during our conversation.
Assuming is not good.
I feel your pain... I went thru an even more expensive DNA Enema last year with my ST3s. In my case I did not have the dealer behind me. I was lead down a path of deception all the while they would not establish whether it was under warranty until parts were purchased. I was never so pissed off in my life. Dealer stated, "Your ECU is fried", My question, "Is that covered under warranty?"... Dealer, "We'll have to check on that... you want it fixed though, right?" At the time, ok, fried ECU, I have to buy it from Ducati. ECU comes in, then they call me up and tell me my dash is fried. Is that covered by my warranty? I dunno, we'll have to find out from DNA, you do want your bike fixed though, right? My follow up was, "I thought you said the ECU was fried, why is it now the dash too, can't you, an authorized dealer check these things?" No. No dealer, nor DNA can ascertain the validity of an ECU or a Dash unit. They only know that if you replace it, and it works, that that proves it was broken.
And you want to know what happened in the end... Because I installed a fan switch, DNA said that due to the draw throwing a switch could cause a failure of both parts. Claim DENIED. Many emails written to DNA to a Mike Norman and countless phone calls to the dealer, both of whom never called back as promised. I have to eat an ECU/Dash combo. And to add insult to injury, I expressly requested that when they ordered the dash, that they see if the previous ECU was not bad so that I would not have to buy parts that don't need to be replaced... after all, DNA and the dealer admitted after the fact that there is no test equipment in North America to test a dash unit or an ECU. The "proper" test equipment is to sell it to a customer, install it, and if it works... it passes the test. So I still have a DP ECU for an ST3, that may be good. DNA refused to take it back and can't test it. It did work, the bike booted up as a Monster. This was also the case with the stock ECU. So it may end up on ebay with the story... Im not out to screw the next guy, that's DNA's job!
From here on out, I will buy any future Ducati, used, low miles and never step foot into a dealership and promote such tactics. I will do all my own work. I will buy from 3rd partys. And I will not trust any company no matter how much I love the product. And this especially applies to a certain dealership in Birmingham, AL.
Morale of the story... Play their game like they play it. If you run into a claim and it is not something you did, put everything back to stock and stick to a the simple story. I was riding, then it went KaBlewie. I say file some sort of small claims, if that is possible. Have a judge decide it. They can't say no to that. They either show up or put up. If you are in the right, it will go your way. Then you can live to tell the tale.
Sorry, don't mean to hijack...