There's a thread in the general section : http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=25074.0) that outlines the problems with E10 and Monsters. I haven't read it yet.
There's a SMH article on the move away from unleaded to ethonol blended: http://www.smh.com.au/national/unleaded-ban-expected-to-cause-rise-in-fuel-prices-20120101-1ph95.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/unleaded-ban-expected-to-cause-rise-in-fuel-prices-20120101-1ph95.html), I assume this is E10.
I haven't read the tank problem thread (so feel free to shoot me down), and I think most people put premium into their monsters, but do oz delivered Ducatis all have plastic tanks?
I've got the SF848 on my list of next bikes so I'm particularly interested in knowing about this across the range.
thanks.
i think everything except the alloy tank 1198 are "plastic". hypers are black plastic which i believe is fine, and aftermarket tanks like what ca cycleworks sell are similar stuff to that. it's the white "nylon" tanks that are the issue as i understand it.
I have heard that Ducati say NOT to use ethanol fuels!? ???
Is the tank issue the only reason? Or is the fuel system etc at risk also!
I know in my racing days when using methanol, all fuel had to be drained from all of the fuel system components at the end of the day or there would BIG trouble with a trashed fuel system! :o
I filled up with E10 95 once by mistake, my M1100 ran like a dog, stalled on take off, smelled bad and ran hot. I drained the tank later that day. Maybe it needs to be tuned to the fuel but I don't have much good to say about E10.
Just put premium in it! No way I would risk internal damage and have a bike that runs like a bag of shit to save a couple of poker machine tokens per tank.
Yeah, premium is the way to go. so even with rural petrol stations, they have to stock 95RON????
I think I was almost caught out 1 time and was told to use octane booster with 91RON, luckily I had enough juice left to find the next servo which had 95.
Problem is some of the girls bikes don't run very well on the high octane stuff.
95 has been hard to come by up our way ... E10 or 98.
Calling Brad Black.................
In this case^ would having the Monster tuned to a specific octane fuel be an advantage ?
I can seem to run anything in the S2R1K without much difference although she seems happiest on 95
That is what was in it when D-moto did their magic.
My old bike the 695 now the wifes had E10 by mistake once and I thought it was going to have a cardiac arrest.
It seems happiest on 91.
What say you Mr Black.
So we can expect more of you New South Welshmen to move up to the Sunshine State then? ;D You know us guys are 5-10 years behind you guys so hopefully we won't see this just yet up here.
well, if someone can tell me how you tune an engine to suit a certain fuel i'd give you an answer. i've never found anyone who can actually tell me what you do to tune for super vs unleaded (like i used to get told to do in the old days) or tune it to 95 over 91. no idea.
e10 will theoretically have a lower stoic a/f ratio as the ethanol has a much lower stoic a/f ratio (around 9:1?), but a closed loop engine should pick that up pretty quick as that's what narrowband lambda sensors do - they find the stoic point, not an actual ratio. i don't know why it makes a differenc to some motors and not others. i had the feeling in my car that it gave more fuel use, but i never really quantified it.
In regards to the 848 plastic tank concern, I had a 1098 for a few years with a white plastic (nylon) tank and didn't have any problems. From the extensive information that is availiable on the forum I don't think it is too hard to miss an affected tank.
If you get a chance to buy a 848, 1098 just thoroughly check out the tank area and fittings and then run non-E10 fuel.
My bike had either BP ultimate or Caltex Vortex used exclusively without issue.
And my S4R has a tin tank so it won't warp but I believe it's the water attracted by the ethanol that warps the plastic tanks so rust may be of concern later if I were to run the E10.
I also read Acerbis made the tanks so I wonder if they are affected with their long range tanks for off road bikes. My old man has an XR400 with a white plastic Acerbis tank?
The tank on my 695 is a bit swollen from E10 use by the previous owner. At one point it got bad enough that I couldn't undo the latch at the front. I emptied the fuel out, removed the fuel pump, and left it in the garage for a few days being blasted by a dehumidifier. That shrank it a little.
My understanding is that the ethanol in E10 is hydrophilic, so binds with water in the air. The water then gets absorbed by the nylon in the tank, making it swell. Thankfully it's a reversible process, but it's really irritating to have to drain and disassemble the tank periodically to shrink it.
What I don't understand is what's the deal with higher octane fuels (which don't contain ethanol). I fill my monster on 91 unleaded when I can get it, and 95 when I can't get 91. I'm not sure if I can tell much of a difference, to be honest, though I did get a crappy batch of 95 from the Shell at Eastern Creek, that left my monster running like a bit of a dog for a week
Quote from: tricolore on January 04, 2012, 01:45:42 AM
Just put premium in it! No way I would risk internal damage and have a bike that runs like a bag of shit to save a couple of poker machine tokens per tank.
+1 on that! I haven't run anything but premium in my S2R. Mind you there is a difference in the premium fuels and where to get it from but I wont go in to that right now! :D
Fraser's told me at my last tune-up that Ducati had worked with Shell on the formulation of their V-Power fuel and that was what was recommended, at least for the more modern fuel-system Ducs, it was the first I heard of it.
The dealer I bought mine from told me to only use Shell............ if I was out of fuel and couldn't get anything else [laugh]
complete contrast to above post , they told me Shell had additives that 2V engine didn't like.
Its a conspiracy I say ............ [roll]
My carbed 900 hates Shell 98 fuel in that I get regular carb flooding when I use it. This has been a consistent pattern. I use BP or Caltex 98 and the problem clears up. There must be a pretty bloody waxy additive that gets under the float needles that the carbs don't like.
How do the injected bikes go with it?
I try the Shell every now and then coz I have the dockets, but the same flooding problem every time. I have called Shell about this problem and the rough running down low some people have complained about. I spoke with a Shell engineer, it was interesting.
Should we have a seperate fuel thread for this?
Quote from: Two dogs on January 08, 2012, 09:30:37 PM
The dealer I bought mine from told me to only use Shell............ if I was out of fuel and couldn't get anything else [laugh]
complete contrast to above post , they told me Shell had additives that 2V engine didn't like.
Its a conspiracy I say ............ [roll]
Yeah, thats what I thought as well, needless to say I haven't followed his recommendation.
My carbed 750 will NOT run on anything above standard swill of ANY manufacturer!! ???
It fouls plugs and runs like a bucket of shit!! >:(
Runs perfectly on 91!! [thumbsup]
Dont use Shell much as there arnt too many around these parts! Caltex, Mobil and the Independents around here!!
Standard comp would be pretty low, so you wouldnt need 98. You'd save a few bucks.
Mines got hi comp pistons so Ive gotta use 98 ot it'll ping.
Quote from: koko64 on January 08, 2012, 10:55:23 PM
Standard comp would be pretty low, so you wouldnt need 98. You'd save a few bucks.
Mines got hi comp pistons so Ive gotta use 98 ot it'll ping.
Heh, the 7fiddy's comp is so low it could probably run on Kero!? [thumbsup] [Dolph]
Yeah got my 1100evo from Fraser's, the handover mechanic said premium 95. His reasoning was a slightly higher comp than previous new gen models. The manual also indicates 95. Also Id love to know what other additives go into premium fuel from brand to brand (shell, bp, caltex etc) to warrant a bike manufacturer to recommend one 95 fuel over another. I know some diesel fuel have detergent additives to prevent glazing, are the additives for premium fuel something similar? Hmmm it's a bit like having MSG added to your Chinese take out....taste great but you don't know what the long term effects will be
from what i've been told by people in the industry, i think there's only two refineries in aust that make premium across all the brands, so it's a generic formula with specific additives for each brand.
the additives are very specific. a mate of mine went to work at mobil after uni and a mate of his went into premium production control. they test the octane of the batch at the end of each shift and they can tell by the octane number how much too much of the additives they added for the shift and how much that has cost them. the additives are the expensive stuff.
Quote from: dragonworld on January 09, 2012, 12:33:47 AM
Heh, the 7fiddy's comp is so low it could probably run on Kero!? [thumbsup] [Dolph]
Hmm, need high comp for kero. It's like diesel. I've seen guys run JetA1 in their 4WDs.
Quote from: Sundog on January 08, 2012, 09:19:29 PM
Fraser's told me at my last tune-up that Ducati had worked with Shell on the formulation of their V-Power fuel and that was what was recommended, at least for the more modern fuel-system Ducs, it was the first I heard of it.
Smells like a commercial arrangement to me. The "use Shell oil only" sticker on the crankcase gives me the same impression.
My '02 runs fine on 91 RON and even better on 95. 95 is what's recommended in the owner's manual. Gives slightly better mileage too.
Quote from: suzyj on January 08, 2012, 11:51:14 AM
My understanding is that the ethanol in E10 is hydrophilic, so binds with water in the air. The water then gets absorbed by the nylon in the tank, making it swell. Thankfully it's a reversible process, but it's really irritating to have to drain and disassemble the tank periodically to shrink it.
What I don't understand is what's the deal with higher octane fuels (which don't contain ethanol). I fill my monster on 91 unleaded when I can get it, and 95 when I can't get 91. I'm not sure if I can tell much of a difference, to be honest, though I did get a crappy batch of 95 from the Shell at Eastern Creek, that left my monster running like a bit of a dog for a week
Exactly.
The issue is water, which occurs in gasoline as a contaminant.
You will only see this issue in tanks marked "PA6" on the bottom, for "polyamide 6" also known as Nylon-6.
Nylon-6 absorbs water up to 10% volume.
If you get some expansion, drain the tank dry. Tanks with minor deformation will shrink back.
On the older monsters with the full trellis frame, pay close attention to the black bumpers on the bottom of the tank which sit on the frame. Those will tell you how badly it's deformed. The tank can also deform long-wise and press against the keyswitch.
In the US, there are epoxy tank coatings which work. You have to make sure to find a compatible one and prep the tank correctly (esp if its had gasoline in it). You have to dry it completely and wash all of the gas out before coating it. Also, the surface of the material inside the tank can have air bubbles which can prevent adhesion by the coating. You have to cut these open.. They are essentially pimples with a VERY thin top. On mine, I cut a big slit into them and then cut off some of the top. The coating when inside and bonded very well with the surface inside.
There are MANY different epoxy adhesives which can work, but they need to be compatible with polyamides. Some are less so. The main issue is preparation, which is tricky with these tanks, but with patience and effort it can be done well.
Quote from: brad black on January 07, 2012, 01:56:46 PM
well, if someone can tell me how you tune an engine to suit a certain fuel i'd give you an answer. i've never found anyone who can actually tell me what you do to tune for super vs unleaded (like i used to get told to do in the old days) or tune it to 95 over 91. no idea.
You need to adjust the compression ratio up or down...
intentionally-misunderstanding-big (More realistically, you can run more ignition advance if you can guarantee high enough octane)
If anyone has a problem with a swollen tank. I have a brand new, never used, matte black tank you could buy.