Mt electricity company is giving me the shits. Unfortunately there is no competition in Tassie.
I haven't taken much notice of the advertising regarding solar panels so I'm looking for info.
Has anyone spent their hard earned on installing some at home and if so, what is your experience?
Are there gov rebates available? How much do I have to spend to make it worth while? Is the current advertising just to get you in then they talk you into taking the more expensive option?
BTW, not looking to use it for hot water. I have gas for that.
Any info will be useful, thanks.
I believe there are some very good deals going at the moment as the gubbiment rebate will soon end and the the suppliers are over stocked and want to clear it.Not sure if that only applies in NSW. :-\
That info BTW came from my business partner who's relo just payed 2k to have panels installed,which is I'm told a good deal? and was only on Monday telling me to pull my finger out and get them installed.
And he has him self, had them installed early last year and saving a fair bit of money,on his bill, ;)
Not sure what the deal is in Tassi though regarding rebates and stuff ???
It all varies from state to state. Some things to consider
- whether you are paid net or gross on what you generate. NSW is paid gross - every KWh you produce is paid for
- what rate you are being paid vs what you are being charged. This is a tricky one, as most energy suppliers are moving from a flat rate to a sliding scale / peak usage etc model
- potential tax implications. It could be considered taxable income. The only precedent at the moment is that if the system installed is revenue neutral, its not taxable, but who really knows, its new territory
- the life of the system and the return on investment.
I did my house with a 1.5Kw system around 12 months ago, got a great rate for what I generate (66 cents / Kwh) and a name brand system. In the negative, I needed a new set of meters, so automatically went to the sliding scale model.
My system is name brand, and all going well, should be good for 20 years.
The supplier offered a 3 year interest free deal, so basically outside of a small deposit, it's not costed me a cent, and in 3 years it'll generate a small income, no doubt that will be offset by the rising cost of electricity.
We're quite frugal on our power usage, so 1.5kW was good for us - one fridge, no air conditioning, gas heating and cooking. your milage may vary.
You might also want to check out any others in the area and ask them how much they are generating. there is also a web site that people can log this stuff which is quite popular. depending on your installation's orientation, it can vary wildly. Also keep in mind that all deals involve you selling your REC's (renewable energy credits), and the going rates for these can also vary wildly - do your homework...
Basically we did it to offset the rising cost of electricity, and so far it's working out OK. This is mostly due to the stupid deals that were going on, the deals at the moment are still good, just not as good as they were.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: techno on February 13, 2012, 10:24:25 PM
Mt electricity company is giving me the shits. Unfortunately there is no competition in Tassie.
The good thing about no competition is that you don't have to take the blame for choosing the wrong retailer ... don't worry they are like banks ... its a privelege to give money to any of them, dealings are always a blissful experience.
We had solar panels installed last year - would have been earlier other than we were make the beast with two backsed around by the company we were dealing with (don't worry they are no longer in 'the business'). There are many and complicated issues - perhaps you should get a lawyer involved.
Each state and/or retailer will have different schemes (appropriate term) running and they are changed as often as politicians change their minds. The bulk of the capital outlay rebates come from the feds though ... this is the part that makes it affordable. The scheme run by the state/retailer is what effects your payback period.
Generally the way it works is that you sign over your 'renewable energy credits' (REC) to your chosen solar mob they then offer you a discount on your purchase/install. You may be offered nett or gross metering options which will effect how, when and how much you will be creditted/paid for the energy your solar system generates. This will of course be complicated by new meters and time of day metering options that your retailer will no doubt try to confuse you with in an effort to get more money out of you.
The RECs credits have been offered at a 'bonus rate' to encourage take-up but his is being wound back. It effectively entitiled you to 5x the number of credits on your first (I think) 1.5kW installed ... but this is now being wound back year on year (is probably 4x or less at the moment). So the best value (from an outlay viewpoint) is to buy a system close to that size. It may be worthwhile to go bigger though.
The value of these credits is also determined by your location and solar power generating potential ... so in Hobart you are rooted 'cos you don't get enough sun apparently.
As I said though you will need to look into the details of what they are actually offering you from a retail/payback situation to see whether it is a good deal for you personally.
Of course, like rainwater tanks, we only did it for environmental reasons. If we hadn't been messed around for so long initially I would have been on a mega-gross feed-in tariff and the state government would have been paying me money ... power would effectively be free.
Was it worthwhile (other than the green smug generated)? Well I don't know yet ... after having the system installed last June I still haven't received a relevant power bill - s'pose that's a good thing.
Oh, and as usual, I just spouted all this bullshit off the top of my head ... so do your own due diligence.
EDIT: Oh shit, Goldy probably just posted the same stuff, I'll have a look.
Quote from: Betty on February 13, 2012, 11:35:50 PM
EDIT: Oh shit, Goldy probably just posted the same stuff, I'll have a look.
Not quite, I think our posts kinda complement each other.
Oh, and I got in on the mega gross feed in thing - just..
Quote from: goldFiSh on February 14, 2012, 12:00:26 AM
Oh, and I got in on the mega gross feed in thing - just..
Bastard! I was trying to get the system for a year ... had even warned them two months prior to the cut-off that I feared it must be coming. The sons-of-pregnant doges left a message for me at work (when I wasn't in the office) saying 'you have to pay a deposit today' on the last day ... so I missed out.
Bitter? Abso-make the beast with two backsing-lutely. Still. I have never been so angry, couldn't even get a quote.
Cost me tens of thousands I reckon ... and after all the therapy I had almost gotten over it ... BASTARD!
[bang] ;)
We had ours installed for about 2 years now
It is a 1kw system 6 flat panels etc.
The product was made in Germany and have no complaints about fit and finish.
Our town bulk bought 500 systems so with install rebate at the time it only cost me $500.
The Recs were sold back to the company.
It saves us about $60-80 from our quarterly bill.
So for what I paid,I think we did alright.
If you had to fork out $3000 etc I am not so sure it would be worth it in Tassie.
Also to go off the grid and piss off Aurora you would need a lot bigger system.
The government rebate gets less each year so be quick if you want to go ahead
Hope this helps.
I should have mentioned the $60-80 it saves is summer
Winter is only $20-40
Hi Techno.
Goldfish is on the money.
However first and foremost, what is your current daily kwh usage?
Due to tarriffs you could end up paying more.
I've just completed studies on the topic, will pm you my details.
Note, panel guarrentees vary greatly, and most are a guarrentee of output and not failure.
Inverter life is expected to be 5-10 years, placement makes a difference, ie out of the sun and sheltered.
Cheers.
Madalf
Quote from: madalf71 on February 14, 2012, 03:42:34 AM
Hi Techno.
Goldfish is on the money.
However first and foremost, what is your current daily kwh usage?
Due to tarriffs you could end up paying more.
I've just completed studies on the topic, will pm you my details.
Note, panel guarrentees vary greatly, and most are a guarrentee of output and not failure.
Inverter life is expected to be 5-10 years, placement makes a difference, ie out of the sun and sheltered.
Cheers.
Madalf
as is Madalf! My inverter is both out of sun and sheltered. When I went through this, and then I went though again and again - As Betty alluded, the NSW gross tariff feed in deal was too good to be true, so I was very suspicious.
Not long after mine was installed they changed the scheme's conditions.
As for installer, I went with a deal that Origin Energy was doing, they did a deal with a tier 1 elec contractor, who did all the install work. I have the sharp panels and sharp inverter, did a lot of research on both - good panels, OK inverter - there are both better and worse, but given the deal, they were both acceptable to me to run with it.
Origin were a pig to deal with - had to take them to the ombudsman twice (!) on two separate occasions, mostly due to their internals systems not dealing with having to pay money out as well as charge (2 separate divisions who can't seem to talk to each other).
Despite all of that, can't complain. My panels are nor-west - not ideal, but not far from it. On a good day in summer I generate just shy of 10,000kW, winter peaks around 5,000kW. My neighbour has the identical system (talked him into it as well) but his is true north - he gets slightly better, but not by much... Oh, and my panels are on a 2nd story roof, with no shade at all..
I have the same system as Goldfish But with 10 panels. (a 2 year interest free deal through Origin Energy)
Very happy with the system so far. The last electric bill I got was $52.00 in credit! So I can't complain about that.
That is based on Two people and the standard household stuff. I got my panels in before the gov rebate got slashed here in South OZ to something stupid like 22c KW
Quote from: madalf71 on February 14, 2012, 03:42:34 AM
Hi Techno.
Goldfish is on the money.
However first and foremost, what is your current daily kwh usage?
Due to tarriffs you could end up paying more.
I've just completed studies on the topic, will pm you my details.
Note, panel guarrentees vary greatly, and most are a guarrentee of output and not failure.
Inverter life is expected to be 5-10 years, placement makes a difference, ie out of the sun and sheltered.
Cheers.
Madalf
Our system is facing Dead on North with no trees or shade to be given.
We are 2 people,with highest energy rating white goods,TV etc.
Our average yearly daily kilowatt usage is 12 our system has 25 year warranty
Our panels are mono crystalline which loose the least amount of energy to other panels.
We did not just go and buy the first thing off the shelf,our neighbour hood held meetings and had displays and debates with suppliers from around the world and there representatives from Australia.
I guess everyone will have a different opinion on what you should do and what system to get.
Just remember the sun in Tassie doesn't stick around as long as other states and this will make a difference on the type of panels you choose and the amount of money to be saved,the larger the system the more it can produce.
There is a lot to consider how long are you going to stay were you are?will you be there longer enough to see the benefits?are you doing it for environmental reasons? so on and so on.
Just read up as much as you can,speak to your town and maybe form a eco group and look into the bulk town buy.
Cheers
Quote from: vossy on February 14, 2012, 02:31:51 PM
I have the same system as Goldfish But with 10 panels. (a 2 year interest free deal through Origin Energy)
Very happy with the system so far. The last electric bill I got was $52.00 in credit! So I can't complain about that.
That is based on Two people and the standard household stuff. I got my panels in before the gov rebate got slashed here in South OZ to something stupid like 22c KW
I hate you too >:(
Thanks for all the replies. I knew there was a wealth of info on here but didn't expect as much on this subject.
Not sure what my daily usage is. They haven't read my meter in ages as apparently two white fluffy dogs are too much for a meter reader to deal with. As a result they have been estimating my last few bills.
I have learned a lot already but just need to decide whether the outlay is going to be worthwhile. I guess that depends on the size of the system, how much I feed back and what rate I get for it.
Quote from: techno on February 14, 2012, 06:07:00 PM
I have learned a lot already but just need to decide whether the outlay is going to be worthwhile. I guess that depends on the size of the system, how much I feed back and what rate I get for it.
Does nobody think of the children?
You know ... nuke a gay whale for Jesus and all that.
Quote from: Betty on February 14, 2012, 06:59:06 PM
Does nobody think of the children?
Filthy bloody bourgeois boomer land owners.
Us gen-X renters don't get no stinking rebates for solar power, insulation or anything. Yer children just cop inflated bloody power bills to pay for you lot.
Quote from: suzyj on February 14, 2012, 07:25:35 PM
Filthy bloody bourgeois boomer land owners.
[thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup] [thumbsup]
Well I just love everyone :-* :-*
Yes of course Dez
ok, my 2 cents.
ever since the supply authorities have sold off the retail arm of their business they have been bending over backwards to "encourage" consumers to conserve energy, use it outside peak times etc. the reason is simple, they are assessed on their performance during peak times, if they can reduce consumption in these times by the smallest of margins the govt. can save millions of dollars in "guaranteed supply" required upgrades to the network.
Hence the rebate system to entice us all into adding solar, great in theory, however, be warned, there are pitfalls, firstly, the sneaky bastards, aka govt. offer quite generous incentives like 4 to 1 kilowatt hour prices paid for anything generated by solar and fed into the network, this is unsustainable, the authorities have already figured out that while most people are at work during the day the solar system is feeding the network and they're paying around 45c per kW/h. when the family gets home and fires up the appliances they consume from the network at 19c. The bubble will burst, and very soon from what i have seen, depends on how tight your contract is but even if it's honoured, when it's expired parity will be the best anyone will ever get again. As for the varying charges depending on usage during peak times? brace yourselves for a royal screwing over!
The solar systems themselves are not subject to any kind of regulatory control, there's all sorts of junk out there from china, and the like being peddled as quality kit, be careful, the panels output can be low and their performance can and does degrade, the cheaper the panel the quicker you will see your benefits erode, inverters are a necessary evil, you can't supply the meter or network without one but the side effects of inverters are power robbing on their own, if you have an inverter for your solar, as well as an inverter air conditioner chances are your sine wave will be that screwed up your appliances are running well below peak efficiency, causing higher power consumption and more failures of appliances. even LED lights with their little inverters will add to dirty power supply.
Lastly, i reckon the advances in technology are on the cusp of some serious savings, 12 to 18 months should see you able to install a quality system that will maintain a high level of efficiency for much much longer than panels on the market today, systems will become much more affordable as well, meaning the rebates that are currently on offer will not be offered, or really needed in the near future. general consensus seems to agree that an average years electricity cost will buy a substantial 3 to 4 kW system installed within a year or so.
I work in the power industry and am not buying into the scare tactics of the solar industry, some were taken to court here in QLD i believe for advertising the subsidy was running out when it wasn't to generate immediate sales, there's a lot more dirty tricks by those wanting your cash in an unregulated industry.
Quote from: loony888 on February 17, 2012, 04:03:38 AM
The bubble will burst, and very soon from what i have seen, depends on how tight your contract is but even if it's honoured, when it's expired parity will be the best anyone will ever get again. As for the varying charges depending on usage during peak times? brace yourselves for a royal screwing over!
I think parity is fair - although a slight 'incentive' would be more fairerer ... as, like you said, the potential infrastructure savings for 'them' are enormous. 'They' were however talking about buying the power 'we' generate at wholesale prices and selling it back to 'us' at retail prices - that deserves a slap in the chops.
Quote from: loony888 on February 17, 2012, 04:03:38 AM
Lastly, i reckon the advances in technology are on the cusp of some serious savings.
Not doubting your knowledge ... but they have been saying that for years (5 or so?). What we have seen is continued improvement - and, it must be said, a reduction in pricing becasue of 'demand' in the market. From what I have heard almost all panels now sold in Australia come from China ... and like all things there are good, bad and ugly (guess where ours came from [laugh]).
Quote from: loony888 on February 17, 2012, 04:03:38 AM
Inverters are a necessary evil, you can't supply the meter or network without one but the side effects of inverters are power robbing on their own, if you have an inverter for your solar, as well as an inverter air conditioner chances are your sine wave will be that screwed up your appliances are running well below peak efficiency, causing higher power consumption and more failures of appliances. even LED lights with their little inverters will add to dirty power supply.
Any chance you might be able to expand/explain this further in simple terms an idiot (me) can understand? I'm intrigued.
http://www.smeco.coop/yourEnergy/electricalDisturbances.aspx (http://www.smeco.coop/yourEnergy/electricalDisturbances.aspx)
basic examples of sine waves, look at the one marked "noise", the issue involving invertors is way more complex but you get the idea.
paul
I know he is. He told me all about it, in full details :-X [evil]
Quote from: loony888 on February 17, 2012, 06:21:42 PM
http://www.smeco.coop/yourEnergy/electricalDisturbances.aspx (http://www.smeco.coop/yourEnergy/electricalDisturbances.aspx)
basic examples of sine waves, look at the one marked "noise", the issue involving invertors is way more complex but you get the idea.
paul
[laugh] I did say for an idiot to understand:
IQ Range Classification
70-80 Borderline deficiency
50-69 Moron
20-49 Imbecile
below 20 Idiot [cheeky]
So I think you are trying to say that the inherent on/off nature of these things causes problems with the consistency of power use and generation ... all the equipment in your home is effectively linked into the one 'system' ... and each piece of equipment in this system is having an effect on the other because their operation is never in synch with the others
causing disturbances in the force and therefore your lightsaber goes a bit limp.
Everything works better (more efficiently) and lasts longer if everything can just learn to get along ... but because they are constantly having to adjust to the changes - your 'stuff' gets tired, confused and wears out quicker and/or don't work so good no more.
Close?
Quote from: Betty on February 18, 2012, 10:26:46 AM
[laugh] I did say for an idiot to understand:
IQ Range Classification
70-80 Borderline deficiency
50-69 Moron
20-49 Imbecile
below 20 Idiot [cheeky]
So I think you are trying to say that the inherent on/off nature of these things causes problems with the consistency of power use and generation ... all the equipment in your home is effectively linked into the one 'system' ... and each piece of equipment in this system is having an effect on the other because their operation is never in synch with the others
causing disturbances in the force and therefore your lightsaber goes a bit limp.
Everything works better (more efficiently) and lasts longer if everything can just learn to get along ... but because they are constantly having to adjust to the changes - your 'stuff' gets tired, confused and wears out quicker and/or don't work so good no more.
Close?
yeah kinda i guess........
The thing is, electricity is incredibly complex, it doesn't work black/white, there's so many variables and conditions that cause very strange and often unexpected behaviour that can be unpredictable, which is one reason it can be so dangerous.
i'm NOT an electrical engineer, i'm a cable jointer, in essence a high voltage electrician and what i had to study as an apprentice was enough to cause a meltdown of my noggin and frankly my curriculum was only scratching the surface of what those who REALLY understand need to know.
Having said that i know enough of those really clever people to learn from them through my day to day experiences, and while i understand in myself what i mean i'm no teacher so putting in a paragraph as an explanation that can be understood is really difficult.
Very basically put, in physics you're taught that "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" and it is true with electrical energy, I've had to wire outback camps with air conditioned dongers for offices and crib rooms and they were all invertor type A/C units fed from the same sub board, it tripped constantly, and the load wasn't the issue, each invertor was doing it's bit to mess up the sine wave of the ac circuit to the point the neutral was overloading and tripping out, we had to install a completely separate sub board with isolated earths and split the demand to fix it.
All inverters disrupt supply to a degree but the more there are or the bigger they are the more the symptoms multiply, ac power in oz runs at 50hz our appliances are designed to run at that frequency, if the supply is not constant the appliance draws more amps (load) to compensate, highs and lows are returned to the network via the neutral, which means there's more kWh charged to your meter and more cycled through the neutral, (causing heat and sometimes overload) back through the switchboard.
Just a couple of quick points.
Firstly, anything that's connected to the power network (regardless of whether it comes from China or anywhere else) has to meet Australian standards. The standards are particularly onerous for solar power stuff, partly because the electricity producers are trying to protect their business and don't like competition, so lobbied the regulatory authorities pretty hard. Yes, there are inverters used in solar power gear (there has to be to convert the DC power from the panels to AC for the grid), but they're remarkably high-tech bits of kit, and produce a really clean waveform. The same cannot be said for the inverters that run airconditioners etc, as they're subject to rather lower standards.
The reason that the govt are so keen on solar has a lot less to do with being green as it has to do with meeting peak loads. All the infrastructure in a power system (generators, substations, power lines) has to be big enough to supply the peak. When it isn't, you get blackouts because transformers etc blow up. Over the last decade, this has happened mainly on hot summer days, when everyone turns on their airconditioners. The govt figured they could either spend billions upgrading all the infrastructure, or else spend a lesser amount in getting people to install solar panels to supply power more locally during these peak sunny periods.
That's the reason the rebates were so generous to begin with, and why they've wound them back now they've hit their target. Blackouts during summer are now a lot more rare than they were a few years ago. When the number of airconditioners grows enough, they'll probably repeat the generous rebate exercise again to get the peak power requirements back under what the network is able to supply.
Quote from: suzyj on February 19, 2012, 03:54:01 PM
Just a couple of quick points.
Firstly, anything that's connected to the power network (regardless of whether it comes from China or anywhere else) has to meet Australian standards. The standards are particularly onerous for solar power stuff, partly because the electricity producers are trying to protect their business and don't like competition, so lobbied the regulatory authorities pretty hard. Yes, there are inverters used in solar power gear (there has to be to convert the DC power from the panels to AC for the grid), but they're remarkably high-tech bits of kit, and produce a really clean waveform. The same cannot be said for the inverters that run airconditioners etc, as they're subject to rather lower standards.
Like everything in life there's quality kit and there's rubbish, buyer beware i guess but i was under the impression there is no minimum australian standard for panels, be it output or degradation, same for installation kits, cable and inverters, the only minimum std i'm aware of is the installation which has to pass as3000 wiring tests and polarity.
The waveform of a solar inverter is subject to the same issues as any other inverter, give or take, often times it's proximity to other inverters as well as distribution Tx is the biggest issue.
as for the govt push on solar i agree completely, i think i said basically the same thing in my original post.
My point overall is that technology will improve very quickly, the cost of this technology will fall just as quickly, so don't be pressured to buy right now because of the threat of higher electricity prices. These installers are interested in margin, which is worked as a % so the cheaper kits get the less profit they make, that's why they want to sell as many as they can now, add to that the demand for carbon credit certificates they're keen to sell kits, stretching the truth to do it is commonplace, buy smart.