So I'm starting to gear up for my second season of riding, and I was hoping I could clear up some lingering questions / doubts I have from last season... I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks for me was not having confidence in how far I could lean the bike over or where I was in relation to a maximum safe lean angle, so I'd like to work on that this season. I'd really like to get a knee down - not necessarily on the road, circling a parking lot would probably suffice - so I can have a solid reference as to how far over I am.
My concern (and related question) relates to how far out one has to stick a knee to get it down on a monster, and (generally) how close to disaster that is assuming perfect conditions - i.e, you see the motoGP guys touching down and then continuing to lean quite a bit more without a problem, v.s. something like a Harley where you'd be in trouble long before your knee ever hit. I ask because my leathers are a bit restrictive through the crotch, and I can't actually stick my knee out as far as it's physically possible (I'm not very tall either, so there's probably some bike-to-knee span lost there as well) - so if the bike is right on the limit at maximum knee extension for an average person with better designed leathers, I'm either never going to get there without different leathers or I'll drop the bike trying. But I don't want to assume incorrectly and miss out on extra lean-angle in case I ever need it, you know?
I know getting a knee-down is something I don't need to chase, but I'm looking to try a track-day school this year and I'd like to try and clear up my lean-angle misconceptions before then. Personally, I feel like having a physical reference to let me know "ok, you're there" would help a lot.
If you have stock rearsets, you'll have to most likely really get your but off the seat pretty far...
Even getting off the seat, and sticking my knee WAY out there, I'd sometimes scrape the shift lever, and even the kickstand once or twice...
If you look closely, you can see how close the shift lever is on a left hander... :P
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/tazios/_DSC1707-Edit.jpg)
A better angle, but before "touch down"...
(http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp231/tazios/Turn5.jpg)
When I think back on how I rode that bike, I was pretty close to the edge of the bike's abilities a lot of the time... :-X :-\ :P I'm not bragging, just pointing out that I wasn't always making the smartest choices on the bike.
Aftermarket rearsets and cutting the nub off the kickstand will give you a little more clearance, unless you have low-mount exhausts...
My advice would be to take a riding course or do a track day... I learned more from one day at a track day than I did in my first three years of riding.
Just my $0.02... YMMV
I hope this helped a bit... [thumbsup]
---edit---
This is on a '99 M750. I have bad hips, so my extension isn't that great. I'm 5'8" with a 30-31" inseam...
[bacon]
Like you said, getting a knee down gives you a point of reference. You'll be surprised at far you've probably been from your bike's true capabilities. You'll never forget the first time. It's also fun as hell!
I'm close to a huge parking lot I call my "skidpad". I've gone thru several pairs of kneesliders just farting around there. It's great for testing and getting to know a new bike or tires and getting your body positions right. I practise panic stops there, too (the most important skill you can have!). It's nice to know how far you can go and gives a lot of confidence if you are a street rider. It goes without saying that anybody who drags knees on busy streets with oncoming traffic is crazy.
I did my first track school before having ever put a knee down. My apprehension kept me from learning as much as I could have.
Search YouTube for "how to drag your knee", etc. Many informative vids there.
Make sure there are NO LIGHT POLES in that lot and bring cones to mark the drainage grates and give you a target to focus on.
Oh, yeah - don't use any parking lot that has had a sealer applied! (don't ask me how I know :-[)
A lot of this is going to depend on your tires, that's the real determining factor of how much grip you have. You don't really want to lean the bike over THAT much though. That's the whole point of getting a knee down: proper position hanging off the bike for centripetal force to help you turn so you can keep the bike as upright as possible (more grip).
Anyways, don't worry about the bike, it can get over and if you're riding it properly you won't hit any hard parts... stay on the balls of your feet!
I'm 6'2" so I have no problem touching a knee, but it's really just a consequence of proper position. Keep no more than 1 cheek off the seat, be light on the bars and lead with your upper body (exaggerate how much you think your upper body should lean off the bike.... it's probably STILL not enough). Get your head where your mirror should be. If you have stock mirrors then look out from under it. Keep looking ahead to the exit and roll onto the gas, it should be rather natural (after an awkward virgin-like first experience dragging a knee when you're probably going to be counter weighted real bad and trying to slide your ass off the bike too much as you "reach" for the ground with your knee.)
I have Dunlop Q2s on my S4RS. The pic's a bit old and I can critique myself: my upper body (shoulders and head) needs to be over more (like I said, exaggerate it a lot):
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/313779_195004770568658_100001774102047_403341_969058079_n.jpg)
Edit: Here's a good shot showing upper body position and how much you should look ahead in the corner! Also, for what it's worth I have a 32" inseam.
(http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/293564_195004903901978_100001774102047_403345_627797299_n.jpg)
I know that corner well... ;)
[bacon]
Quote from: The Bacon Junkie on February 26, 2012, 08:00:51 PM
I know that corner well... ;)
[bacon]
HA! Tricky little devil if you try to get greedy. I crashed my R6 there because I wanted to go JUST a little faster (on old haggard tires). The corner NEVER opens up it stays tight and stays tight and you feed it gas and your line starts sliding out wide so you try to hold it JUST that little bit harder and the rear steps out and you add some dirt to your leathers....
Ahhh, live and learn. Wish you didn't move away, dick!
Ya... I do miss riding year 'round...
Connecticut doesn't have as many nice roads...
Plus all the sand/salt/dirt doesn't go away until April or May... :P
[bacon]
I went for Q2's hoping they'd have more grip than I'd ever need to use, so I'm not too worried about tires (relatively speaking at least). But at 5'7" (inseam ~29") AND restrictive leathers, I do worry about a lack of reach as it were - from what I've seen around here, it looks like the sidestand / pegs / shifter are close at knee-down for most, so I might end up scraping those first.
IIRC (haven't been on the bike in full leathers in months, damn winter), the inside of
my knee would be closer to touching my elbow in a similar position to the one in photo. I suppose one could make the elbow stick a bit further out by moving the upper body, so perhaps that's not a good measure.
Quote from: $Lindz$ on February 26, 2012, 07:50:30 PM
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/313779_195004770568658_100001774102047_403341_969058079_n.jpg)
Where abouts in CT you at Bacon? I'm over in Marlborough.
Quote from: Z06C5R on February 26, 2012, 08:28:22 PM
Where abouts in CT you at Bacon? I'm over in Marlborough.
I'm in South Norwalk...
Sadly, my 999 is still in Santa Barbara... :-\
All I've got here is my ysr 50... Now, THAT'S a bike you can get your knee down on! :D
Fiddy Fun! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcKlnr2yKug#)
I had more fun taking the 50 to the parking lot, than I did taking the Monster to the track. [Dolph]
Seriously... I learned a bunch about body position and braking and corner speed from that little bike.. [thumbsup] Come by some weekend....
[bacon]
Quote from: Z06C5R on February 26, 2012, 06:13:16 PM
So I'm starting to gear up for my second season of riding, and I was hoping I could clear up some lingering questions / doubts I have from last season... I think one of the biggest stumbling blocks for me was not having confidence in how far I could lean the bike over or where I was in relation to a maximum safe lean angle, so I'd like to work on that this season. I'd really like to get a knee down - not necessarily on the road, circling a parking lot would probably suffice - so I can have a solid reference as to how far over I am.
My concern (and related question) relates to how far out one has to stick a knee to get it down on a monster, and (generally) how close to disaster that is assuming perfect conditions - i.e, you see the motoGP guys touching down and then continuing to lean quite a bit more without a problem, v.s. something like a Harley where you'd be in trouble long before your knee ever hit. I ask because my leathers are a bit restrictive through the crotch, and I can't actually stick my knee out as far as it's physically possible (I'm not very tall either, so there's probably some bike-to-knee span lost there as well) - so if the bike is right on the limit at maximum knee extension for an average person with better designed leathers, I'm either never going to get there without different leathers or I'll drop the bike trying. But I don't want to assume incorrectly and miss out on extra lean-angle in case I ever need it, you know?
I know getting a knee-down is something I don't need to chase, but I'm looking to try a track-day school this year and I'd like to try and clear up my lean-angle misconceptions before then. Personally, I feel like having a physical reference to let me know "ok, you're there" would help a lot.
I'm a fairly short guy, 5'7", and I had trouble trying to drag my knee at my first track day. I was sticking my leg out, probably like you're doing and I felt like my leathers were restricting me. It wasn't until my second track day when I focused more on my upper body position that dragging my knee came naturally without even trying. Really, upper body position does more to help your turns than where your knee is, though it is useful to tell when you're close to dragging hard parts.
I generally use hard parts as a gauge for when hard parts are dragging. When the footpegs are grinding, you're about as far over as you need to be. When the shifter touches, it can upset things, so be careful. When the exhaust touches, don't go any more, as you're about to discover the coefficient of friction of asphalt and whatever you're wearing.
All kidding aside, trying to drag a knee for the sake of dragging a knee is a quick way to get into trouble. Work on your body position (as Caleb.....er.....DonJuan Ducati, mentioned) and let the rest come as it may. For what it's worth, before the advent of the current "hang-off" riding style, riders used their feet as a gauge of lean angle. If it's good enough for Mike "The Bike" Hailwood..........
Quote from: Cloner on February 28, 2012, 01:01:01 PM
...When the shifter touches, it can upset things, so be careful. When the exhaust touches, don't go any more, as you're about to discover the coefficient of friction of asphalt and whatever you're wearing...
Trying to avoid this. Again, I'm still a relative n00b, but my perception is that the margin between tooling along safely and ending up in the dirt when a hard-part touches down is far too narrow for my liking - especially if we're talking about speeds associated with track riding. Now if that's not the case, and I won't instantly lever the rear tire once something other than my knee hits the ground, perhaps I've been placing too much importance on getting a knee-down.
It'll come. One way to get there, safely would be a school. Lee Parks, Total Control might be good for you to look into. You'll get a knee down in class - granted it'll be at 25 or so in a lot but you'll learn control, position and how it feels.
Don't focus on the knee down to the exclusion of other skills which are more fundamental. As a newer rider, you're coming into a statistically very dangerous point in your career. The instances of riders having a crash in their 2nd year riding is highest per mile covered by that rider. Higher than year one or any point after. You've got some, but not a ton of skill yet, and you've got confidence and a desire to go faster. It's the last two that overwhelm the skill base and get folks into troubles. So just keep that in mind.
Speaking of Lee Parks - even if you can't get to a class he's got a book that's a good read. I suggest you pick it up.
Now, hardparts - I scraped the shifter and kickstand on my 620 a few times. Granted it's a touch lower and under sprung for me.. but stuff did touch on occasion and there were no disaster. I won't make claims I was going 11ty billion mph when it happened - it was usually lower speeds 30-40 but in tight stuff. The worst effect it had was scaring the ever living crap out of me on a tight 180 switchback and it did upset the bike some. But if you keep calm and good body position most times the bike will settle down.
I was thinking of taking a Total Control class, but there's none in riding range for me. It's still on the list, but if I'm going to haul the bike I'd almost rather be going to a track, you know? I have been through "Proficient Motorcycling" and 'Twist of the Wrist II", but perhaps I'll have to give the Lee Parks book a read too - certainly wouldn't hurt to learn a little more, even if it is just theory.
Motorcycle riding has been an eye-opening experience for me thus far - As someone well versed and fairly skilled in four-wheeled dynamics, it's been difficult sometimes when I stop and think how little I really know about riding. I try to keep that in the forefront of my mind, so I can both reel my enthusiasm in on the bike and push myself to learn off it.
Quote from: Z06C5R on March 01, 2012, 06:43:28 PM
I was thinking of taking a Total Control class, but there's none in riding range for me. It's still on the list, but if I'm going to haul the bike I'd almost rather be going to a track, you know? I have been through "Proficient Motorcycling" and 'Twist of the Wrist II", but perhaps I'll have to give the Lee Parks book a read too - certainly wouldn't hurt to learn a little more, even if it is just theory.
I haven't read Twist II, but have Proficient Motorcycling. Good, but the Parks book is better for what you're trying to learn. It's more focused on the dynamics of the motorcycle. Throttle, brake, body position, line etc. It doesn't give over space to things like what to do about dogs and lane position strategy.
There's some good skills schools that visit tracks - Keith Code, Cali Superbike School etc. So you can combine a trip to the track with education.
Quote from: Sad Panda on March 01, 2012, 11:30:50 AM
...
As a newer rider, you're coming into a statistically very dangerous point in your career. The instances of riders having a crash in their 2nd year riding is highest per mile covered by that rider. Higher than year one or any point after. You've got some, but not a ton of skill yet, and you've got confidence and a desire to go faster. It's the last two that overwhelm the skill base and get folks into troubles. So just keep that in mind.
...
As I begin my second season of riding and first one on the duc, I am thankful you posted that so I could read it now! [bow_down]
I highly recommend not worrying about getting your knee down and instead work on a good body position and getting some good instruction. It's very easy to get into bad habits, making unknowing mistakes that can then cause problems when you pick up your speed.
Keith Code's California Superbike Schools are great and his books Twist of the Wrist are great too. I find his stuff very easy to digest.
FWIW, dragging your knee is not necessarily a sign of good riding or even fast riding. With poor technique, you can get your knee down much sooner than necessary. As far as using the knee to give you confidence while you ride, I've only found that valuable while on the race track with much higher cornering speeds.
Quote from: docwong on April 11, 2012, 12:29:33 PM
FWIW, dragging your knee is not necessarily a sign of good riding or even fast riding. With poor technique, you can get your knee down much sooner than necessary. As far as using the knee to give you confidence while you ride, I've only found that valuable while on the race track with much higher cornering speeds.
Very true. There was a local fellow who had a number of low sides that were totally body position. Some were at track days where there were photogs. It was clear to see that while he hand a leg out/knee down his upper body was on the wrong side of the bike - ie Crossed-Up. By having his upper body one way, and lower the other they cancelled each other out. He'd have been better off keeping his ass in the seat and shifting his shoulders inside the turn. At least then he would have taken lean off the bike.
So yeah - don't sacrifice important fundamentals in the hunt for a scraped knee. Go looking too hard and you'll find it, and a scraped leg, shoulder, bike etc...
Quote from: docwong on April 11, 2012, 12:29:33 PM
I highly recommend not worrying about getting your knee down and instead work on a good body position and getting some good instruction. It's very easy to get into bad habits, making unknowing mistakes that can then cause problems when you pick up your speed.
Keith Code's California Superbike Schools are great and his books Twist of the Wrist are great too. I find his stuff very easy to digest.
FWIW, dragging your knee is not necessarily a sign of good riding or even fast riding. With poor technique, you can get your knee down much sooner than necessary. As far as using the knee to give you confidence while you ride, I've only found that valuable while on the race track with much higher cornering speeds.
I don't ever get that close to getting my knee down on the road. I like having something in reserve and it's just not necessary.
On the track, depending on the corner etc I might get it down earlier than full lean or get it down at absolute max lean. Some corners you want to keep the bike more upright to give yourself more traction to get better drive out of the corner, others you can deal with it leant over more.
(http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/33971_10150848648347754_696132753_11971376_1590546683_n.jpg)
That's a pic of me demoing the first one - knee was down in that corner later into the corner, but the bike can lean further. Leaning further in this particular corner means you sacrifice some traction (it's bumpy and also comes back onto itself), hence I'm trying to keep it as upright as possible. Body off and down to help do that. There's a couple of other corners on this track which allow you to lean the bike further, in which case I hang off a little less and even may pull my knee up - sliders aren't cheap, after all ;).
Getting the knee down is not the be all and end all of being fast. Turn it faster and you can go through a corner at the same speed for less lean. Also, I could have had less style in that corner and been just as fast :).