:'(
Ohio shooting: One dead at Chardon High School http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17182562 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17182562)
My thoughts and prayers to the families of those involved...
<rant on>
I'm all for liberty. It's one of the things that make this country so great. Freedom of speech, freedom to follow any cuckoo religion you choose, freedom for two consenting adults to marry (or just have sex with) whoever they want (independent of sex, race or religion) and last, but not least, the freedom to bear arms. I believe every single person in the world should be free to do as they wish AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT HARM OTHER PEOPLE!
Yea, I know it's not easy to put into law, but that's not my point. What I think of is the reverse of the medal, there must be serious consequences for those who harm others. Be it directly (make the beast with two backswit with the gun) or indirectly (shithead who gave the make the beast with two backswit the gun). Before I can get a gun I need a license (or whatever) to prove that I'm not batshit crazy. And whoever buys a gun from me will need to do the same. And if someone is killed by a gun I own, I will be held responsible whether or not I pulled the trigger.
<rant off>
I'm not posting to piss off other people, I'm just upset that people die for such stupid mistakes. These are my opinions and mine alone, naturally extracted from my old toenails and that's what they're worth. If there's anything to add, please let's keep it civilized.
I....
There are...
We as a....
make the beast with two backs, it's all too political no matter how i try to word it. [bang]
It doesn't take a gun. It takes a nut.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2010/05/china_under_pressure.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2010/05/china_under_pressure.html)
What's driving the nuts to shoot?
I too, can't do this with out politics.
Great point KnightofNi.
The non political opinion.
That person wanted to hurt others. If they couldn't get a gun, it would've been explosives. If they couldn't get explosives, it would've been a knife...etc etc etc. If someone is to the point where they feel that the only way out is to hurt others, they will find a way and no law or freedom or political edict is going to stop them.
The same statements that you made against guns and someone who sells them or gives them also holds true for everything from baseball bats to a rock in someone's landscaping and everything in between.
If the accused had used a fork and went around stabbing everyone, would you call for the punishment of the person who ran the press that churns out millions of forks a year? Or the cafeteria worker who placed the fork in the bin?
The comments you make on laws to prove that you're not "batshit crazy"...those laws already exist. In the United States, you do have to have a license to buy a handgun. You have to pass a class along with background checks to obtain firearms legally. You can walk into a sporting goods store and try to buy a shotgun or rifle but if you have a domestic assault or in most states an assault on your record, you will be denied.
But guns can easily be obtained illegally.
Anything beyond I feel would be politically motivated so I will stop here with my condolences for the lost and my prayers for the other victims and their families and friends.
When I was in high school, someone made a pipe bomb out of drano, it broke one of the main drains after they flushed it down the toilet somehow. there was bilge water everywhere.
Just a little bigger and it could have been far more dangerous.
I have no doubt that people can be very resourceful when it comes to killing one another, mankind has been practicing it since the dawn of time. But that is not the point I was trying to make.
I'm not demonizing guns, I like them, best times I had with my father was when we went shooting. Poor ol' vacuum cleaner never had a chance! ;D
But I am, let's say, disappointed by the fact that mentally ill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho) people can possess guns. Or that some dealers may be complacent (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/24/AR2010102402221.html) in providing guns to criminals (or straw buyers). I can't find the link to the exact news article, but I remember about some lady who (legally) bought several assault rifles, only to sell them to some mexican cartel. All I found is this link to a related story (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html).
So, no I don't want to go and desecrate Eugene Stoner's grave. The same way I don't hate Ford for building the Model T. What I would like is for lax dealers and straw buyers to start facing responsibility for their actions. I would like to see them loose their licenses the same way I would loose my driver's license if my driving threatened peoples lives.
Eventually I will have guns, and I will have kids. And I expect to teach my kids how to handle and respect guns. And it will be my personal responsibility to ensure that none of my guns will ever be involved in a crime.
Quote from: The Mad King Pepe' on February 27, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
Eventually I will have guns, and I will have kids. And I expect to teach my kids how to handle and respect guns. And it will be my personal responsibility to ensure that none of my guns will ever be involved in a crime.
Ok...how about this scenario for you.
Someone breaks into your house, steals your guns. They sell them to some kid who decides that he has had enough of society and is going to do something about and guns down some innocents at a train station.
Should you be held accountable?
I am just saying that simply saying "whoever sold a mentally unstable person the gun" is the worst form of fatalism. As of last report, the ATF aren't sure where the gun came from and in fact have 8 agents trying to track down its source.
You are demonizing the entire industry for the sake of a few bad apples.
That's like saying prescription drugs are the cause of the meth epidemic because some of the ingredients can be derived from them and therefor, anyone who sells prescription drugs should be punished.
I know several gun retailers. They follow the law. They observe waiting periods and do background checks as they are required. Should they be held accountable if they follow the law to the letter only to have someone who is completely "normal" and passes the required checks buy a gun just to turn around and gun down his wife or wife's fling or... It's a very fine line of accountability.
Should a gun shop be found to have provided a gun to someone who didn't pass the correct checks, then I am completely there with you. They need to be held accountable. But asking a vendor who follows the laws to the letter to be held accountable for the actions of someone else is like saying just because I sold Joe Buyer a car which he promptly drove through a day care, I should be charged with involuntary manslaughter.
I mean it is exactly the same thing. I provided the assailant with a means to perpetrate their crime so I am obviously at fault as well...
See what I am getting at? First it's guns...then forks...then spatulas (my Grandma hit me with those when I was a kid...I am suing the shit outta RubberMade! ;) )
I wish I had a more positive thought but this problem will never go away and can never be legislated away.
Quote from: spolic on February 27, 2012, 02:21:50 PM
I wish I had a more positive thought but this problem will never go away and can never be legislated away.
Actually, truer words have never been spoken. It is human nature to find a way. We found a way to get to the moon. We found a way to reach the ocean floor. Unfortunately, people will always find ways to kill other people.
Of course, I heard about this soylent green stuff that is supposed to help... ;D
Quote from: ZLTFUL on February 27, 2012, 02:17:55 PM
Ok...how about this scenario for you.
Someone breaks into your house, steals your guns. They sell them to some kid who decides that he has had enough of society and is going to do something about and guns down some innocents at a train station.
Should you be held accountable?
[...]
I think the examples you're mentioning are just the obvious cases. Neither would be held responsible if guns were stolen from my house or
legally acquired from a dealer. I'm pointing the finger at the exceptions, those who take advantage of the grey areas of the law.
And I'm not demonizing the whole industry. If you look at the articles I linked to they aren't generalizations against all the "evil" people who sell guns, but a
minority of dealers who "supply most guns tied to crimes".
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/guns/overlay/images/dr-graphic.png)
BTW, damn it's hard to keep this factual and a-political! [laugh]
Quote from: ZLTFUL on February 27, 2012, 02:33:15 PM
Actually, truer words have never been spoken. It is human nature to find a way. We found a way to get to the moon. We found a way to reach the ocean floor. Unfortunately, people will always find ways to kill other people.
Of course, I heard about this soylent green stuff that is supposed to help... ;D
So why not find a way to make it harder for criminals to get guns? Come on, if we can fix a Ducati, everything else should be a walk in the park!!! We'll worry about forks and spatulas later... [laugh]
Quote from: The Mad King Pepe' on February 27, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
So why not find a way to make it harder for criminals to get guns? [laugh]
As said earlier, because it's a lost cause. Just put reasonable laws in place (which has been done for the most part), and then enforce them as best as possible. People will ALWAYS get what they want, regardless of laws.
See the "war on drugs" as an example.
I am not trying to be cleaver or make light of the situation. It's sad any time this happens. With that said, I do believe that gun doesn't kill people, crazy people kill people. There are stories of mentally instable persons driving their cars at a high rate of speed into a big crowd of people. Their intention was revenge and to cause harm. I wouldn't say that cars capable of high speed are too accessible and that we need to place tighter controls on cars.
I might be reaching with that example... Anyway, I do agree that there is gray area in the gun law that a small percentage of people are taking advantage of it.
We don't do gun law.