I've got some pics now, so I figured I should give an update here for anyone who's interested! I was able to get all the closers except one to spec today before I pulled ALL the opening rockers off to be sent to chris for some megacycle resurfacing (was wondering about the process, I'm assuming I send him mine and he sends em out, or does he have some that he exchanges? I'd ask him, but he's not open until tuesday :P but if you see this chris... ;D)
Just to let you know, I am installing MBP collets on all the valves along with the valve adjustment, and apparently now I'm gonna do an oil change and coolant change as well :P
OH, and in case you were interested, I have already had to replace a coolant reservoir on this bike previous to when I owned it (I have since changed the fan temp switch and the fan blades themselves to head off this problem again) :(
AND, I bought the bike from a good friend after the alternator nut had loosened itself and ate up the left side cover :-X So I'm pretty much running 100% on all the typical things that go wrong on these bikes...
a few things that have gone wrong thus far:
1) Lost an MBP collet down the vertical cyl oil passageway, hence the oil got drained to see if I got lucky... to be fair, I am not 100% sure that the collet did in fact go down the passageway, I heard a definitely downward clinking on metal when it slipped, but am not sure if that was outside the engine or inside, from my attempts to put stuff down the passageway, I'm starting to wonder if a collet could fall down it that quickly and cleanly...) I have purchased a magnetic floor sweeper that should be here monday to see if i can't get lucky and find the sucker on the concrete...
2) Opening rocker hell! 7 of the 8 have visible chrome missing and the other one has a dark spot. This bike previously had all opening rockers replaced too! unfortunately, it looks like they were replaced with freakin OEM rockers... chris is going to get all 8 for megacycle resurfacing as soon as I humanly can...
3) added services, oil change and coolant change (coolant isn't due yet as I just recently replaced it when i changed the thermostat). Coolant because I pulled one of the radiator hoses so I could get to a bolt on one of the rocker pin covers... turns out I probably didn't need to do that, oh well.. [coffee]
Here's some pics:
torn down ready to go, I really like how the bike looks in this state... something very sexy about it [moto]
(https://lh5.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQyr8fIsI/AAAAAAAADLs/NfwCdc5Cj-0/s400/IMG_3936.JPG) (https://lh5.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQzmCveBI/AAAAAAAADL0/UCdiSrPriCg/s400/IMG_3937.JPG)
Vert and Horz heads with belts off, I have new locknuts for the pulleys ready to go:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQ2g2w84I/AAAAAAAADMM/CwoiqUUrTsE/s400/IMG_3940.JPG) (https://lh5.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQ4ah4WpI/AAAAAAAADPQ/6Lu4f8dRSP4/s400/IMG_3942.JPG)
Old and new belts:
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQ6IMbi7I/AAAAAAAADMs/SU_0lsT8W3A/s400/IMG_3944.JPG)
First look inside the head:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQ5EUOtWI/AAAAAAAADMk/MuqL2UGbq3Y/s400/IMG_3943.JPG)
Opening rocker and rocker pin pulled:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQ8wXn_DI/AAAAAAAADNE/Vi7Ln4RxU8Y/s400/IMG_3947.JPG)
Good look inside the head with the cam and one opening rocker removed:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQ97vjXcI/AAAAAAAADNM/zGracDVam0E/s400/IMG_3948.JPG) (http://lh4.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcQ-spuO0I/AAAAAAAADNU/y1qGx0Vx8jQ/s400/IMG_3949.JPG)
Shot of me using a big screwdriver to actuate the closing rocker so I can get to the halfrings and remove the closing shim (this feels a little easier for me than the method used to get the closers off on 2V engines! except when you take into account how much crap you have to get out before getting to this point :-\):
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRBvQikuI/AAAAAAAADNs/RWJaXr_2ouE/s400/IMG_3952.JPG)
Good shot of the closers on the ends of the valves (you can see the flaked off section of chrome on the rocker at top of pic :-X ouch):
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRCfyFczI/AAAAAAAADN0/bwjzRx3CTA8/s400/IMG_3953.JPG)
And at least one reason (or I guess three reasons) why I decided to change to MBP collets (the 2V already has em installed too [thumbsup]), I found 2 valves had half rings in 3 or more pieces:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRDXT_tQI/AAAAAAAADN8/fyNoXmfmS6Q/s400/IMG_3954.JPG)
And now onto the opening rocker chrome flaking pics:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRFmyQEKI/AAAAAAAADOQ/ut2JyN7YVBY/s800/IMG_3957.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRJbN5-eI/AAAAAAAADOo/fiThP6Sg0MI/s400/IMG_3964.JPG) (https://lh5.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRKa_I8II/AAAAAAAADOw/u9DRAJfy0lM/s400/IMG_3966.JPG)
these two weren't quite as bad (these are horizontal cyl, intake side):
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRLOD0tkI/AAAAAAAADO4/S95BgSvW3eI/s400/IMG_3968.JPG)
unfortunately, the one in front here was probably the worst one of them all, and on the horizontal cyl of all things... exhaust side :'(
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/hierohyf/SGcRLyJIQQI/AAAAAAAADPA/yBGlcssv_V8/s400/IMG_3970.JPG)
I'm so glad I have a 2V'er
Thank you for reminding me why I should not by an 848. I'll just keep a mental image of this thread with me everytime I get an inkling to go looking for one.
reminds me of when I did the S4 last year at 6000miles 5 of 8 openers flaked bad.
all openers replaced with megacyle rockers from Nichols but all closers were OK .
will be interesting when I look again at 12,000.
Quote from: EEL on June 29, 2008, 08:17:34 AM
I'm so glad I have a 2V'er
Thank you for reminding me why I should not by an 848. I'll just keep a mental image of this thread with me everytime I get an inkling to go looking for one.
What he said! But, man, that 848/1098 is sure one beautiful bike! Did the valves on my SS this weekend, and with the shims I had laying around, I only need one opener.
Quote from: hiero on June 28, 2008, 10:41:28 PM
AND, I bought the bike from a good friend after the alternator nut had loosened itself and ate up the left side cover :-X So I'm pretty much running 100% on all the typical things that go wrong on these bikes...
Same thing happened to my bike! That nut backed off and the big round thing (fly wheel maybe?) started grinding against the alternator cover. Also, according to my tech, that lead to my clutch breaking and tearing prematurely.
He said that the factory did not tighten the nut well,,,,what a pain!!!!!
Eeeks dude that sucks!
Remind me to bring you some more johnny the next time I go over ;D
Quote from: EEL on June 29, 2008, 08:17:34 AM
I'm so glad I have a 2V'er
Thank you for reminding me why I should not by an 848. I'll just keep a mental image of this thread with me everytime I get an inkling to go looking for one.
The owner of a Local Duc shop annd also a very skilled mechanic did a valve adjustment tutorial. he said that each sucessive generation of the 4v has gotten easier to work on. The 916 era plants we see here were a beast, but the 1098/848 era heads are a lot easier to do valve work on FWIW...
Testta motors (749/999, sr4t, and beyond) all have a valve cover that just comes off like any other motor on the planet. Why ducati designed the quattro head with such limited access is beyond me, but someone either thought it was a good idea, or had to much wine.
Also, testta motors and beyond have had little in the way of rocker arm failure. I believe I've heard of one case, and thats it.
If you can adjust your valve on a quattro, you can do it in 1/4 the time on a testta, with much less frustration.
I'll never own a quattro bike, and the above reasons are why.
Quote from: TAftonomos on June 29, 2008, 12:06:34 PM
Testta motors (749/999, sr4t, and beyond) all have a valve cover that just comes off like any other motor on the planet. Why ducati designed the quattro head with such limited access is beyond me, but someone either thought it was a good idea, or had to much wine.
To me, the quattro is a natural evolution of the way the 2V heads are laid out.
Yes, they're not optimum for serviceability.
But, they were first used almost 20 years ago, and the basic design was done 35 years ago... so not so bad for the era.
Quote from: TAftonomos on June 29, 2008, 12:06:34 PM
Also, testta motors and beyond have had little in the way of rocker arm failure. I believe I've heard of one case, and thats it.
Time will tell, but they do seem to be better.
Quote from: TAftonomos on June 29, 2008, 12:06:34 PM
If you can adjust your valve on a quattro, you can do it in 1/4 the time on a testta, with much less frustration.
I'll never own a quattro bike, and the above reasons are why.
I wouldn't go *that* far, but it is a bit easier in some ways.
Testa engines are easier to check and adjust, sure.
Yhe older heads were not pop-top due to the fact the cams ran in roller bearings, testa heads use higher oil pressure at the cams and run the cams on an oil film against aluminum, like all the manufacturers.
Testa motors are a step in the right direction for many reasons but there is still nothing wrong with a desmoquattro head. Once you have done an adjust a few times they are quite easy, just labor intensive. Rocker ratios are better as well , less rocker issues.
On the hard weld rockers you are trading a surface that is harder (chrome) for one that cannot peel. I have seen the hard weld rockers flat spot on high mile motors, no chrome to flake but it can be a wear item. Not bad, something to watch for. I just had a 50,000 mile 916 that is a trackbike in the shop and it needed 1 rocker. Always a possibility with the chrome rockers.
Hiero
next time just pull the radiator as it comes off very easy (5-10 minutes) and that time is made back quickly because you have a lot more room to work .With some of those rockers worn as they were how were the cams?
Every valve adjust on a desmoquatro the cams should come out to inspect the rockers. I have seen too many people that just pull just the opening rockers to get at a shim or measuring clearances and not pulling cams when clearances are good. If a bad rocker is left in there the chances are you will do more damage to the cams.
Quote from: ducvet on June 29, 2008, 01:01:56 PM
...
Hiero
next time just pull the radiator as it comes off very easy (5-10 minutes) and that time is made back quickly because you have a lot more room to work .With some of those rockers worn as they were how were the cams?
Every valve adjust on a desmoquatro the cams should come out to inspect the rockers. I have seen too many people that just pull just the opening rockers to get at a shim or measuring clearances and not pulling cams when clearances are good. If a bad rocker is left in there the chances are you will do more damage to the cams.
well, I will need to go back in once I get the rockers back, so I will be sure to pull the radiator, thanks for the tip!
to tell you the truth, I don't know what I'm looking for when looking at the cams to tell if there's significant damage, could you give me an idea of what I should be looking for? I looked at the cams, but didn't really know what I was seeing...
When the rockers lose the chrome the new stepped surface can wear into the camshaft. Look at the lobes of the cams on the opening lobes and find the one that corresponds with your worst rocker. I will bet you will see where the surface that rubs on the rocker has flattened a bit. The cams have a hard coating and the problem begins when the rocker starts to dig at the cam. You can some times see cam material raised on the sides of the lobe where damage has occurred.
If the damage is slight you will be okay. deeper damage will usually cause the camshaft to wear faster.
Maybe my vision is going but those rockers don't look bad at all. To me they don't look like they are flaking rather just wearing normally. The surfaces will never look like they do when they go in.
One question I have is when you run your fingernail over the surface of the rocker did you feel a step or ridge? Or did you just feel a smooth indent?
Also I would recomend some high qaulity engine assembly lube during reassemby.
Quote from: gage on June 29, 2008, 08:38:36 PM
Maybe my vision is going but those rockers don't look bad at all. To me they don't look like they are flaking rather just wearing normally. The surfaces will never look like they do when they go in.
One question I have is when you run your fingernail over the surface of the rocker did you feel a step or ridge? Or did you just feel a smooth indent?
Also I would recomend some high qaulity engine assembly lube during reassemby.
all but one have ridges you can feel
i really don't see the added ease of adjusting clearances in a testa. the horiz inlet closers are a real pain to deal with, and the oil that goes every where when you pull the rocker cover just shits me. as does having to goop up the cover when you refit it.
i think i'd rather do a desmoquattro personally. except an early 851 with stainless collets - that sucks.
Quote from: hiero on June 29, 2008, 08:46:42 PM
all but one have ridges you can feel
Yeah, now that I am at work with a much better monitor I can definately see the flaking!
+1 on checking the cams
I just did an adjustment on my 04 S4R (18k miles), and it really wasn't that big a deal. Like said above, just labor intensive. Biggest thing is just getting everything off and back on the bike (tank, throttle bodies and oil cooler), not the actual adjustment itself. All rockers were fine on mine.
The only issue I had was the o-ring on the exhaust cam-shaft of the horizontal was leaking JUST A TAD after I was done. You could see oil residue after a LONG ride. No drops in the garage though. I got new o-rings, and am using gasket sealer on the metal gaskets now.
Quote from: carlosbarrios on June 30, 2008, 10:58:14 AM
... and am using gasket sealer on the metal gaskets now.
is that ok to do?
The problem with gasket sealer is that sooner or later it has to come off; sooner in the case of Duck valve covers. A better alternative is to use blue Hylomar, and only a very thin layer of that. It never hardens, and can be cleaned up with your favorite solvent.
If you choose to use RTV sealant, remember: only a paper thin coating to the gasket surfaces. Anything more than that just winds up squeezing out into your engine.
I was hesitant about it not coming off, but apparently they have "permanent" and "semi-permanent" gasket sealant. I used the semi stuff. I had to remove the valve cover again 2 weeks (and about 100 miles) after using the sealant, and it came off pretty easily. Not sure what the curing time/mileage would be before it is hard to come off.
I do have that blue hylomar, might use it next time instead. Thanks!
I use a product called Wellseal for gasket surfaces it never hardens bur works like a dream.easy to clean off later.Just a smear is all it needs.
748 fixed and running just fine now [thumbsup]