So... I've picked up a bus route. One of the reasons was for some extra savings/retirement moneys, but the other was to add a second vehicle for use in the winter when there is slippery stuff on the ground. Reason being, I love my truck, but two in the cab and it's full. It's great as a 4x4 but not suitable to carrying but on other person. It also gets worse gas mileage than most SUVs and trucks currently on the market.
What I'm looking for:
1. 4x4 or really good AWD
2. Fun to drive
3. Seats at least 4
4. Diesel would be nice
5. Sturdy/solid well into higher mileages. I'm hard on equipment and expect a lot out of my 4x4/AWD
6. Somewhere in the 8-12K range. Understand higher mileage is not a concern IF it's a vehicle that will last a lot of miles and years.
7. Not terribly concerned with MPG, BUT diesel would be nice for better MPG. My truck gets around 14 MPG in mixed driving.
8. Full-time 4x4 or AWD is preferred.
9. I would prefer the availability of getting a manual transmission. It's almost a requirement, but I understand there are some nice automatics available with 'manual mode.'
Keep in mind, I'm in the US and don't get a lot of the awesome SUVs like the Patrol (wanted one since I was in Australia) here. Diesels are also hard to find and typically more expensive.
Suggestions?
Vehicles I like? Benz ML series, Land/Range Rovers, Benz G-class (yea, not gonna afford that), Landcruiser (or Lexus variant) etc.
look for a Subaru Legacy GT '08/09 or perhaps a Legacy 2.5GT '06-08 or perhaps a nice unmolested Saab 9-2X Aero which is a more plush version of the WRX
Quote from: zooom on September 17, 2013, 03:33:22 PM
look for a Subaru Legacy GT '08/09 or perhaps a Legacy 2.5GT '06-08 or perhaps a nice unmolested Saab 9-2X Aero which is a more plush version of the WRX
+1 on these choices or a Nissan X-Terra . . . with the SC engine . . .
Which engine was the SC? The 3.5L?
JM
Quote from: the_Journeyman on September 17, 2013, 03:51:44 PM
Which engine was the SC? The 3.5L?
JM
if not mistaken 3.3 V6 . . . anyways, here a little reading for you, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Xterra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Xterra)
audi or Volvo [thumbsup]
Quote from: Raux on September 17, 2013, 04:09:55 PM
audi or Volvo [thumbsup]
why not a VW touareg diesel?
I have a BMW 328Xi an LOVE IT
I was thinking Audi Allroad
Quote from: Raux on September 17, 2013, 04:13:56 PM
I have a BMW 328Xi an LOVE IT
I was thinking Audi Allroad
2.7l V6 turbo . .. what is what Homer says . . . [drool]
Quote from: Darkmonster620 on September 17, 2013, 04:12:41 PM
why not a VW touareg diesel?
Would love. Out of my price range though. They're crazy expensive, even with a lot of miles.
JM
Quote from: the_Journeyman on September 17, 2013, 04:21:00 PM
Would love. Out of my price range though. They're crazy expensive, even with a lot of miles.
JM
:'( :'( :'(
ural
Does it have to pull?
Are you selling the Dakota?
I thought the X-terra felt mushy. Steering is soft, brakes felt like it was never going to stop, suspension was on the soft side.
I have the ML 320 and it works great for me. I saw one here in town a while ack for 12K that was diesel (ML350) that I drove. It was pretty sweet. The ML 320 has the auto/manual shifter on the center console. I drive it like it was a manual quite a bit minus the clutch work. I think the newer ones have the shifter up on the steering Column. Slush boxes these are not.
The one problem with the shifter on the console is the, forgetting you left the sunroof open and it rained all over your shifter with electronic stuff built into it and now its ruined problem. I think that's why they moved them to the steering column.
Anyway I tow stuff with it. It seats up to 7 with the jump seats in the back and gets decent mileage, for an SUV. The stock Bose Stereo bumps pretty good and the 320 engine is pretty easy to work on if you need to work on it. Bout the only thing I don't like is the valve cover gaskets leak. That can be dealt with easy enough for people that have some spare time. I'm not one of those people though.
Only diesel you're going to find stateside that meets your price and preferred engine requirements is a mid-to-late 90's Suburban with the 6.5TD. I'm a GM guy and love my current Duramax, but wouldn't inflict a 6.5 on a friend.
Toureg diesel is gonna be the most affordable full-time AWD diesel in the US. Unless you can find someone who has spliced a Subaru diesel into a VW Vanagon Synchro.
If you can do without the diesel, +1 to the Subaru recommendations. I'm not a fanboi by any means... they can be expensive to repair and they have their quirks, but their AWD just works. Stay away from Foresters with turbo motors. Not many were properly maintained, and if/when the turbo lets go, it shoots shrapnel into the motor. Not pretty. If you can find a 4th-gen Outback (2010+) with the 3.6L flat-6 in your price range, that's gonna be one of the most bulletproof engines you can get. The 6 only came with a slushbox, but it's a reliable slushbox (the 5EAT transmission). A more affordable combo is the 2010+ Outback 2.5i with 5-speed manual. Only available with cloth interior and few options, but they're out there, and it's a pretty bulletproof combo that gets good gas mileage. Anywhere from 25-30 mpg. I would recommend avoiding the CVTs if you don't like the feel of slushboxes... the CVT is like driving an old Chrysler with a really badly slipping automatic transmission.
Overall, I am fond of the 4th-gen Outback for the highly functional AWD and the 9" of ground clearance. Skidplates available from Primitive Racing if you're gonna be in rough country. Suspension spacers can be had that add 1" of ground clearance. Seatbelts for 5 and a huge trunk. They aren't corner carvers by any stretch of the imagination, but they get from A to B with boring reliability, in all kinds of weather.
Quote from: DesmoDiva on September 17, 2013, 05:25:38 PM
Does it have to pull?
Are you selling the Dakota?
I thought the X-terra felt mushy. Steering is soft, brakes felt like it was never going to stop, suspension was on the soft side.
Depends. Thoughts were keep the Dakota for wood-hauling duty (read - abuse, 1000-1500lbs in the bed for firewood) and various non-so-nice truck duties like getting into really rough places or during extreme weather when nothing else will go). The Z will likely go rather than the Dakota. Pulling would be on the lighter side (think small trailer with motorcycles or camping gear etc) but mostly for a good winter vehicle that can carry more than just two people.
The Xterra is ok, but I really want something a bit more brutish. I know they're reliable though.
JM
DD - Also, on the towing front, the heavy stuff to pull would still be handled with the Dakota or Dad's borrowed Surburban (87 model with 350 & tow package).
Duc_fan - Those don't sound too bad. My sister had a 2002 Outback that was nothing but a problem. I also know she didn't keep up with required maintenance.
I can do without diesel, it's mostly icing on the cake in my price range.
CVTs are a complete "no-no" for me. I really prefer manuals, but will concede to a "good" auto. I don't like the Forester. but would really consider the Scooby flat-6 for sure. What year models are the 4th gen Outback? If I went with a more car type vehicle, clearance is important.
JM
4th gen OBs are the 2010-current cars.
2010-2012 have soggy suspension. Curable, but just know ahead of time. Fixed in 2013 with stiffer springs, shocks, and anti-roll bars.
As with anything, Subarus require their recommended maintenance. The normally aspirated engines aren't as picky as the turbos, but they still need some minimal level of attention. Turbos do not suffer fools. At all. Overall, Subaru is probably mid-pack for handling neglect. Honda and Toyota are gonna be the most forgiving, German and Italian cars the least forgiving. The newer ones seem to have better quality components than the early 2000's and 90's cars. Yeah, I wouldn't touch an older Scooby-doo with a ten-foot pole. They're needy like an Audi, without the German car's quality interior or refinement.
The 2.5L flat-4 and 3.6L flat-6 in the 4th gen OB don't have many problems. The 5EAT auto with the flat-6 is a decent auto. Has a manual mode that works kinda okay (I hate latency... but no flappy-paddle auto is good enough for me in that regard). The stickshift is a good transmission. Yeah, the CVTs don't seem to have many reliability problems, they just suck to drive. The flappy-paddle mode on the CVTs is pointless, with the singular exception of engine braking on hills. The Subaru Outback forum is a good resource for reliability and troubleshooting info.
The pre-2010 flat-6 was a 3.0L motor, and my understanding is it requires premium gas and is not quite as bulletproof as the 3.6. The 3.6 with the 5EAT has been used in the Tribeca since... well, for a while, and has proven reliable. Since the OB weighs less than the Tribeca, it puts less strain on the motor and tranny. Only notable thing I read is the 3.6 motors can use oil (just depends on the individual motor), so you gotta check it between change intervals. My 2013 has nearly 11000 on it and doesn't use enough to be able to tell on the dipstick in 4k miles. OCI is 7500 per the manual.
Yeah, I would have preferred a lot of other options than a Subaru wagon, but living in the middle of Egypt I needed something that just worked. We get 8-12" of snow at a time... the Scooby handles 9" or so very well. Got sick of the 2011 2.5i/CVT, traded it for the 2013 3.6R. The 2011 wasn't unreliable, I just really hated the CVT... after 60k, I'd had enough of driving the rubber band.
Oh... if you shop for an Outback 3.6R, don't believe the EPA mileage. It's listed as 18-25 mpg. My wife and I average 25.6 in mixed driving... mostly country highway (70/30, hwy/city), but that includes 2000 feet of elevation change on the commute every day, and 5 miles of gravel at 35-40 mph. We've gotten nearly 28 mpg on all-highway runs. Check out Fuelly for real-world numbers. The 2.5 and 3.6 aren't as far apart as the EPA suggests.
All good to know. I haven't found a 3.6 Scoob for sale remotely locally though. As for the MPG thing, I'm pretty open minded. I do know I can get a V8 Cherokee with better MPG marks than a V6 Pathfinder.
JM
FJ Cruiser.
The price hasn't come down to your range according to the "official" pricers of used vehicles, but ours is great. It's a truck (body on frame), with a real transfer case (2wd, 4h, and 4l), with a locking rear differential. It will tow over it's 5k rating and not return worse than 10mpg (19-20 when unladen driven like a moto on the highway, worst I've actually seen towing is 14).
We bought it to replace an F-250 crew cab Powerstroke... and while I've changed the trans fluid and filter at half the interval, I change oil and filter when the light comes on... for 75k hard miles.
If it doesn't need to seat four all the time, I'd recommend it. The back seat leaves something to be desired for long trips and ease of access (you can fit 5 friendly adults in it, but you can't fit a high tech rear-facing child seat in it).
For a slushbox, it doesn't entirely suck.
It will take turns far faster than you should be taking them in an SUV.
It is 90% of a Jeep Wrangler off road (to a casual user), and 200% better on pavement.
Jeep Liberty diesel ?
You may laugh but the Ford Explorer Sport is pretty awesome. We traded our limited in on this puppy and it's been a blast, downside is no manual but you do get paddle shift.
I'm tellin you, the ML Mercedes......I'm tellin you...
What are the group's thoughts on the 2014 Jeep Cherokee coming out shortly?
Quote from: Little Monkey Toes on September 19, 2013, 09:12:01 AM
Jeep Liberty diesel ?
Neat rig, but shopping for a used one is like finding hen's teeth.
Quote from: Lucumon on September 19, 2013, 10:06:32 AM
What are the group's thoughts on the 2014 Jeep Cherokee coming out shortly?
that in the end, it is still a Chrysler....
Quote from: Lucumon on September 19, 2013, 10:06:32 AM
What are the group's thoughts on the 2014 Jeep Cherokee coming out shortly?
Sorta ugly. ;D
Just read an article on it in the latest issue of Automobile, sounded like the V6 version was the one to have. Somewhat capable off-road despite being FWD based.
I have a new Wrangler and love it....but we're a quirky bunch.
Quote from: Little Monkey Toes on September 19, 2013, 09:12:01 AM
Jeep Liberty diesel ?
LIKE! But hard to find. Found one locally but it's gone now. I was disappointed it sold before I got a chance.
Quote from: Mendo Dave on September 19, 2013, 09:18:51 AM
I'm tellin you, the ML Mercedes......I'm tellin you...
I'm REALLY fond of these. I'm keeping and eye out for a higher mileage ML500, but either find really expensive ones or ones with a pile of miles.
New Grand Cherokee in diesel would be awesome, BUT it will be way out of my price range.
I'd also drive a Wrangler, but C won't and is concerned about them safety-wise.
Edited to add:
Manual is off the table, must be an auto, but the shiftable autos are still ok
No Wranglers of any kind.
JM
Quote from: the_Journeyman on September 19, 2013, 02:20:35 PM
LIKE! But hard to find. Found one locally but it's gone now. I was disappointed it sold before I got a chance.
I'm REALLY fond of these. I'm keeping and eye out for a higher mileage ML500, but either find really expensive ones or ones with a pile of miles.
New Grand Cherokee in diesel would be awesome, BUT it will be way out of my price range.
I'd also drive a Wrangler, but C won't and is concerned about them safety-wise.
Edited to add:
Manual is off the table, must be an auto, but the shiftable autos are still ok
No Wranglers of any kind.
JM
Do a search on EBay for the ML430 (V8) there's a couple on there for pretty cheap.
Is the 430 as solid as the 500? I'm not opposed to the 430 at all so long as it's solid.
JM
Quote from: the_Journeyman on September 19, 2013, 04:32:57 PM
Is the 430 as solid as the 500? I'm not opposed to the 430 at all so long as it's solid.
JM
Well the 430 and the 320 are the same design. Its a modular 90 deg engine. The 430 has two more cylinders than the 320 and presumably no counter balancer because V8's work well with 90 deg while V6 engines apparently do not. All I can tell you is that I have two 320 V6 engines, one in a E class with over 225K, and one in the ML with over 180K and so far the only thing that has gone south is the valve cover gaskets. (minor niggling) I did have a crankshaft sensor go out on the E. It took 3 minutes to replace. they both run buttery smooth and make enough power to get out of their own way while still returning at least 25MPG on the Hwy.
That sounds good. A valve cover gasket is pretty tame to worry with. I don't need tire roasting power, but decent would be great. I'll add the 430 to my watch list.
Found locally:
2004 Discovery (center diff lock) but worry about reliability of a 100,000 mile unit.
2005 Jaguar AWD X-Type with 51,000 miles. Again, worried about reliability.
Both are cars I'd drive. The good thing though is time is on my side, I can wait on a deal since I don't need it right now.
Eyes will stay open for a V8 ML.
JM
Oof, yeah, if you need something that "just works" I'd stay away from the Disco and the Jag.
That said... I have wanted to build a safari-style Disco for a long time. Snorkel, rock rails, roof rack, lifted suspension, big tires, the works. Every now and again a nicely built one pops up locally for under 10 grand. They get horrible gas mileage tho. User reports are similar to the Durango, around 14.
They're both a crapshoot. They also both come as "certified" from the dealer. Not that that means anything. I think I'd almost rather wait on a good ML despite my like for the Discos. The Jag was a random find and cool to think about but not that practical.
JM
Okay, I am mostly a lurker in NMC... why the dismissal of the FJ?
Quote from: Dirty Duc on September 19, 2013, 11:09:10 PM
Okay, I am mostly a lurker in NMC... why the dismissal of the FJ?
I don't think it meets the gas milage criteria set in the origional post....otherwise it is an awesome vehicle...we love ours...
Quote from: zooom on September 20, 2013, 08:21:20 AM
I don't think it meets the gas milage criteria set in the origional post....otherwise it is an awesome vehicle...we love ours...
Ah.
As the former owner of a lovely Disco 2; all I have to say is that it looks great parked next to a Buell. WTF was I thinking owning two of the least reliable vehicles in the world at the same time? [bang] [bang] [bang]
Okay I have more to say. It only took 2k to find a fault in a fuel pump cutoff switch. That is only because I am mechanically inclined and did not pony up for a new computer at the LR dealer and bought one used. The problem was not the computer but LR would have set me back a quick 4k.........
When I finally found an independent LR specialist it took them a day and $135.00............. NEVER EVER EVER GO TO A LAND ROVER DEALER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here's my list I've gathered to put on my radar. It's not in any particular order aside from the ML. I'm OK with more expensive maintenance for a higher end vehicle.
Benz ML430/500
Lexus LX470, Possibly an RX series, but prefer the LX
'Yota Landcruiser
Diesel Liberty
Scoob 3.6
Discovery - Service history & indie mechanic check it out first (We've got a good local one)
VW Toureg (or Audi equivalent) but likely out of my price range.
BMW X5 - likely of my price range too
As for the FJ, I know they're good 4WDs, but just don't like their looks. Also, I would prefer four regular doors. I know the back half-doors open, but would rather have regular doors. It's really not a mileage thing, but if I can get a V8 with similar mileage, I'll pick the V8 over the V6/I6
I also thought about the previous gen Audi Allroad, but they're pretty pricey.
JM
Quote from: the_Journeyman on September 23, 2013, 02:33:09 PM
As for the FJ, I know they're good 4WDs, but just don't like their looks.
Horrendous blind spots....