Can anyone explain to me the physical differences between a wet clutch case and a dry clutch case? Such as the hyper 1100 evo and the monster 1100 evo. Both share the same engine. Except one has a dry clutch one has a wet.
Is it just plugged oil galleys or something of the sort? I know the entire clutch assembly is different along with the primary gear and clutch gear. But in theory would you be able to swap the engine cover from the hyper evo, as well as primary and clutch assemblies and have a dry clutch monster evo?
Or is it something about that case design that is physically preventing it from being possible?
Part question, part thinking out loud.
It's possible, but it's not just any easy swap.
Quote from: kopfjäger on October 09, 2013, 07:23:57 PM
It's possible, but it's not just any easy swap.
How not easy are we talking here? I am under the assumption that this can be done using the hyper parts bin.
-engine cover clutch side
-complete clutch assembly (basket, plates, pressure)
-pushrod
-primary gear
-clutch gear
And then I would need to determine how exactly the dry clutch bikes keep oil out of the clutch area and find a way to plug it so to speak.
Stew will need to answer as I'm not a mechanic. I did it to my 800, but it was pricey.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=57170.msg1060966#msg1060966 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=57170.msg1060966#msg1060966)
Quote from: nickshelby500kr on October 09, 2013, 07:38:51 PM
How not easy are we talking here? I am under the assumption that this can be done using the hyper parts bin.
-engine cover clutch side
-complete clutch assembly (basket, plates, pressure)
-pushrod
-primary gear
-clutch gear
And then I would need to determine how exactly the dry clutch bikes keep oil out of the clutch area and find a way to plug it so to speak.
In the past, that's all you would need, I'd say it's likely even the 1100EVO would be the same.
Well, you would need the seal that's mounted in the clutch cover too, which deals with the last issue you noted.
Some pushrod O-rings....
Download the parts catalogues of the models in question and start comparing.
Make sure the crank and trans input shafts are the same part number.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 09, 2013, 08:15:34 PMDownload the parts catalogues of the models in question and start comparing.
Make sure the crank and trans input shafts are the same part number.
Cranks are same part number. I would have to double check for the input shaft. If the input shafts are not the same, I will probably just scrap the idea because I don't really feel like having to split the cases for a purely aesthetic (in my mind) mod.
Aside from that, is the big black seal around the in the center of the engine cover the only thing that prevents the oil from entering the clutch area? I originally though this was the case but tossed it because it seemed too simple to be real. Made it more complicated in my head.
Different main shafts
Monster
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/4A5900DF-E89A-486B-B4BD-28305738B5CF-399-00000054120936FA_zpsa5958526.jpg)
Hyper
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/7A2B28AC-1B3A-4DF9-86FA-6574EB2BC9A0-399-000000540B5AA747_zps5e7e8c1a.jpg)
I'm not sure what part 30 and 31 are for on the hyper though as they are not on the monster. And the end of the hyper shaft appears to be threaded.
Like I said, it's a pricey mod. ;)
The output (lay) shafts are the same part number. But the input (main) shaft is different. What effect would this have on the clutch and primary gears from the hyper if any?
I have no idea if this helps for the new generation but here is a bookmark I saved which a guy details out the conversion for a 620, different parts and all I assume, but might help (especially page 3 with a diagram).
http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=37403 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=37403)
Not worth the money to do the mod, cheaper to buy a dry clutch engine.
I know on the older large case engines with the wet clutch, sport classic/848. The ducati performance kit for wet clutch conversion on the 848 could be used. The evo uses a different part number clutch then those 2 bikes but that may be just due to it being a APTC clutch. There has been some thought that some money could be saved by using factory parts instead on the higher dollar slipper & mag side case in the kit, but I have yet to hear if the transmission input shaft is directly compadable with the dry clutch basket. The small case engines were difficult to swap over due to a completly different input shaft design, I think I posted some pics of the difference some time back, I can try to find if I still have those pics saved.
I was able to find a complete trans assembly for a hyper 1100 evo on eBay and it look identical to the design like the monster parts catalog uses. Where as the hyper catalog screenshot the shaft sort of steps down and is threaded outside and inside for some kind of screw. I just need to find an actual monster 1100 evo input shaft to compare.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/400443975742?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1
http://m.ebay.com/itm/161121911008?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1
Quote from: thorn14 on October 09, 2013, 08:51:38 PM
I have no idea if this helps for the new generation but here is a bookmark I saved which a guy details out the conversion for a 620, different parts and all I assume, but might help (especially page 3 with a diagram).
http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=37403 (http://www.ukmonster.co.uk/monster/showthread.php?t=37403)
that looks very do-able and surprisingly cheap
Quote from: nickshelby500kr on October 10, 2013, 06:32:45 AM
I was able to find a complete trans assembly for a hyper 1100 evo on eBay and it look identical to the design like the monster parts catalog uses. Where as the hyper catalog screenshot the shaft sort of steps down and is threaded outside and inside for some kind of screw. I just need to find an actual monster 1100 evo input shaft to compare.
http://m.ebay.com/itm/400443975742?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/400443975742?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1)
http://m.ebay.com/itm/161121911008?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1 (http://m.ebay.com/itm/161121911008?nav=SEARCH&sbk=1)
That looks like the same style input shaft used on the small case motors. Very strange Ducati, for all the engine being so similar they change alot.
Quote from: caperix on October 10, 2013, 11:03:18 AM
That looks like the same style input shaft used on the small case motors. Very strange Ducati, for all the engine being so similar they change alot.
Just enough to be a pain in the ass.
We'll I just bought me a hyper 1100 evo clutch side case cover. Dark grey not the awesome gold unfortunately.
So now I need to find a complete hyper clutch assembly from an evo. A monster 1100 might work but I do not know.
Just the clutch is not enough. The dry clutch gear slides onto the wet shaft but is not a match for the wet crank gear. So I will need another crank gear to test if it will actually work on the monster.
I will also need at least one custom spacer. Where the nut theads onto the input shaft. The dry clutch hub nut is a nut/spacer combo of a smaller diameter. The wet clutch hub nut is just a nut directly onto the hub.
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/30DB1797-C5D1-4909-A58A-7FEB296BAC19-305-00000062BD3F28E7_zps9982d6b0.jpg)
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/13555581-B6EF-4F93-A4FA-64E9064A7341-305-00000062CC2B111B_zpsba4f1da7.jpg)
Ordered a crank gear from an old multi that I believe will work. Will see what happens.
Watching to see how this turns out!
Unfortunately I'm at a stand still. The monster uses a spindle nut style lock nut and requires a special tool, of course only available from ducati.
Interesting mod.
Hope you get this to work. [beer]
Are you referring to the ring nut holding the primary gear on? If so, search for ring nut sockets and you can find a few places that sell them. You'll need to take a few measurements to get the right one but should be able to find the right tool.
I can't find one. So looks like I'll be making one. Going to cut and notch out a deep socket.
Edit: JK I'm not going to spend $20 on a 28mm deep socket and spend an hour minimum cutting and grinding it.
Well here's one I found in 28mm: http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=262610. (http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=262610.)
Expensive though. I forget who actually makes the ring nut sockets but there is a brand that makes various sizes. I'll try to find out and post.
I just went ahead and ordered the duc oem tool. I saw those.
Ducati ring nut socket should be here in a couple days. I'm getting antsy.
I already have everything else.
One more question regarding the 848 kit though, it shows a screw that is supposed to be swapped out next to the front drive sprocket. Can anyone elaborate what this is actually for?
That screw blocks the flow of oil. It is needed.
Quote from: hackers2r on November 19, 2013, 11:41:15 AM
That screw blocks the flow of oil. It is needed.
The flow of oil to what?
Also interesting: The 1100evo motor has a lash adjuster built into the primary gear... Hadn't seen that before on a Duc. It's for noise regulations.
Quote from: Duck-Stew on November 19, 2013, 03:27:07 PM
Also interesting: The 1100evo motor has a lash adjuster built into the primary gear... Hadn't seen that before on a Duc. It's for noise regulations.
The tensioner on the crank gear? I thought it was odd too.
Okay I have discovered this is there on wet clutch bikes and is called the clutch fluid flow rate adjusting valve. This this not present on the dry clutch bikes.
So my question is if I plug this hole with a screw that it's not going to starve any of the gears on the input shaft.
And as far as a screw to plug this hole, does anyone know of anything that can be used? My searching is coming up short.
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/E46E99C6-65A3-4E04-9A22-51825B2FEA4C-346-00000048CF3DA716_zpsbfd1f415.jpg)
That is the screw. I could send a photo of the one that is too long for our bikes but it is basically a screw with the end machined into a point to restrict the flow of oil where that valve used to be. The screw replaces that entire valve assembly.
Quote from: hackers2r on November 19, 2013, 08:51:54 PM
That is the screw. I could send a photo of the one that is too long for our bikes but it is basically a screw with the end machined into a point to restrict the flow of oil where that valve used to be. The screw replaces that entire valve assembly.
Do you know how long ours actually needs to be? Maybe some dimensions? Why does it come to a point?
Is there anything else that could be used to block that passage?
Just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I try to put it all together.
I don't know of what else could be used as the hole being blocked is at the bottom of a hole which is under pressure. As I remember it, the screw is the length of the old bolt and valve assembly together. It's a pretty crude way of measuring it but mine is all assembled again otherwise I'd give you an exact length. I believe there is someone on one of these forums who actually made a schematic of said screw. Another option is to look for installs of the 848 dry clutch kit as they may have more details on the blockage.
Quote from: hackers2r on November 20, 2013, 05:55:57 AM
I don't know of what else could be used as the hole being blocked is at the bottom of a hole which is under pressure. As I remember it, the screw is the length of the old bolt and valve assembly together. It's a pretty crude way of measuring it but mine is all assembled again otherwise I'd give you an exact length. I believe there is someone on one of these forums who actually made a schematic of said screw. Another option is to look for installs of the 848 dry clutch kit as they may have more details on the blockage.
Does the bolt have to be pointed? Is the hole that it threads into recessed at the end so that it sits flush?
I've done so much searching and haven't come across any kind of schematics for the screw.
Does the point need to be a certain angle? And when you say the length of the valve. You mean the length of the screw, washer, spring, cap, and ball? And is this length with the spring compressed partially or fully?
The tip is meant to basically center itself in the hole at the bottom when tightened. I would absolutely recommend it be pointed to achieve this. I don't think the angle really matters though. In terms of whether under compression when measuring, I honestly can't remember. I will try to find some pictures of the said bolt for you so you can get an idea.
Quote from: hackers2r on November 20, 2013, 07:13:01 AM
The tip is meant to basically center itself in the hole at the bottom when tightened. I would absolutely recommend it be pointed to achieve this. I don't think the angle really matters though. In terms of whether under compression when measuring, I honestly can't remember. I will try to find some pictures of the said bolt for you so you can get an idea.
I would really appreciate it.
Update:
Got my primary gear tool and was pretty upset it didn't actually fit. The inner diameter was correct, the teeth width were correct but the outside of the teeth was off. .25mm all the way around. So I had to grind it down to make it fit.
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/3E60706C-DC84-4197-B140-50AA63694D1F-349-000000DE817C0E16_zps4da17a80.jpg)
Once grinded, it fit right on. Secure the gear and loosen the ring nut. Do not remove it because now to gear needs to be pulled.
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/A4F665D7-8642-4FDE-9064-00AB423A8AC8-330-000000DBB0491E7F_zps2f631e99.jpg)
When that gear lets loose it makes quite the bang. I was expecting it and it still startled me.
Test fit of the new gears to make sure they mesh together and are within spec.
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/omfg_nick/DE54E6FE-CE49-439A-9845-59F6BA12FA1C-330-000000DBBB4B47FD_zps6f8ad0d3.jpg)
Noticed a parts install for 848 dry clutch conversion kit and figured it might be helpful. There's a link to the pdf on the last reply here. http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/71451-s2r-800-dry-clutch-conversion-2.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/71451-s2r-800-dry-clutch-conversion-2.html)
Super excited to see how this turns out!
I should have some time today to get you a picture of that bolt. Sorry about the delay. You're making good progress though. The only hiccup I've had was the nut that secures the clutch hub to the main shaft. Took forever to get it done. What are you using for this?
Quote from: hackers2r on November 24, 2013, 07:01:58 AM
I should have some time today to get you a picture of that bolt. Sorry about the delay. You're making good progress though. The only hiccup I've had was the nut that secures the clutch hub to the main shaft. Took forever to get it done. What are you using for this?
It will end up having to be machined from the look of it.
Back on hold. Stuff just isn't working out. Too many little things.
If I pick this back up later, I'll update the thread. I would however advise that if you want a dry clutch; either buy one with it, buy the 848 kit, or split the cases.
There is a bushing that is supposed to go inside the the input shaft and a roller bearing with I-ring that WILL not fit a wet clutch input shaft. There's just too much custom one-off things that would need to be made to do this. And I'm not willing to do it.
The input shaft LENGTH is different AND the threads are different.
In order to do this the most EFFICIENT way you will need the following:
Dry clutch gearbox (input and output shafts)
Dry clutch primaries
Basket
Plates
Hub
Pressure plate
Slave cylinder
Pushrod
Case cover
I may do it the legitimate way later on if I split the cases but the only reason I will split the cases is for a crank job; lightening and balancing plus hi-comp pistons.
Sorry to disappoint guys
Hi guys,
dry clutch on the Monster1100 Evo is possible... with the 848 kit as base, look here:
http://manutex.jimdo.com/ducati/ducati-monster-1100-evo/trockenkupplung/ (http://manutex.jimdo.com/ducati/ducati-monster-1100-evo/trockenkupplung/)
Little video:
http://youtu.be/0Wp1Nau6pzQ (http://youtu.be/0Wp1Nau6pzQ)
Cheers,
Manu
My Hyper 1100 Evo has a dry clutch. Maybe checking out parts from that motor might be of help?