I've read many posts on how an aftermarket exhaust will still burrple/pop on the EVO even with a reflash.
I had a Sport1000 with a termi exhaust that would burble and pop and I thought it was normal, had it tuned at a shop and turned out it was running lean and they were able to adjust it and no more popping after that.
I've installed a comp werkes slip on my EVO along with a MW reflash with removal of O2 and exhaust valve and it's been burbling and popping constantly on decceleration. I will be having my shop check it out although they've told me the EVO ecu is different and not tunable.
Does everyone experience popping with the CW exhaust? is it inherent since technically the EVO has a double muffler setup and the CW is just one pipe? I noticed the 09 monster 1100 CW is still two pipes.
i have the same slip on youre running, but instead of the reflash i opted to install bazzaz fuel mgnt - ive had this setup for ~ 3k miles, and I never notice poping, and only a very occasional blurble on decel, and I'm pretty happy overall with the way the bike is running vs. stock.
So they cant really tune/change the reflash? Am i S.O.L?
the ducati performance ecu is an option - i dont think the motowheels reflash is the same as that, but I believe it's possible to have that map flashed to your ecu. you can do a full tune with a powercommander, but if i'm not mistaken you need a dyno for that. I like the bazzaz because there's a fuel module that will tune on the fly - I dont have that on my ride yet but it's planned.
Hmm motowheels did say the map they reflashed it with is custom for the exhaust. It does however say DP in the readout when i turn on the ignition though.
Quote from: Barney on May 22, 2014, 07:41:50 AM
the ducati performance ecu is an option - i dont think the motowheels reflash is the same as that, but I believe it's possible to have that map flashed to your ecu. you can do a full tune with a powercommander, but if i'm not mistaken you need a dyno for that. I like the bazzaz because there's a fuel module that will tune on the fly - I dont have that on my ride yet but it's planned.
I beleive that the MotoWheels reflash is the same map as the Ducati DP.
You do not need a dyno to do a PoweCommander tune. You would need a dyno to do a tune compliant with the desired outcome, otherwise it is a guessing game.
A full tune would include ignition tables. The PowerCommander for the M1100evo does not include ignition map options.
PowerCommander has an AutoTune option which provides the ability to set a desired AFR and then collects data as you ride and presents options necessary to retune each cell to attain the previously set desired AFR. Unlike the Bazazz, it has a wideband for each cylinder and adjusts each cylinder. The Bazazz does only one. I do not know, but doubt that it "tunes on the fly". I suspect, as with the PC, it collects the data on the fly but must be loaded via a lap top.
I may have misstated some Bazazz info because I do not have first hand knowledge of it. I have spoken with their tech support, as well as the PC ones. The thing to remember about either autotune method is that the desired AFR is an estimate whereas a dyno run is hard data.
I have the PCV with AutoTune on my M1100evo. The can is CompWerks and the filter is my MWR clone. With about seven retunes based on AutoTune data, the bike runs so smoothly that it still surprises me. The last two retunes seemed to increase performance noticeably. But, even at that, I would probably have achieved the same or better on a dyno staffed by a Ducati enthusiast. The PCV and AutoTune were an acceptable compromise. Note, it is not a given that any particular map or AFR will provide the same results on identical bikes.
Please correct me if I have gone astray, ungeheuer.
^ agreed.
Had my 1100 dyno tuned recently and the difference while riding is significant, but not much seen on paper. Popping is now minimal, as well as other sounds that arrived after installing a full Termignoni exhaust.
Ok so sounds like ECU was step 1. PCV or Bazzaz is step 2 to get rid of deccel popping and low rpm surging. Does the PCV use stock O2 sensors? I had them disabled with the reflash.
PCV uses a separate o2 optimizer device to modify the fueling below 5000 rpm. Is your re flash done with your origional ECU or an extra? Ask whoever did your re flash to redo or refund since it's not what you wanted?
Yes its my orignal ecu with a reflash done by motowheels for the comp werkes slip on. It removed exhaust valve and o2 sensors and it says DP ecu on readout now.
If i were to get the PCV though sounds like I wouldnt need the Optimizer as the o2 sensor are disabled on my current setup
youre right, the bazzaz collects data and then needs to be updated via a laptop or something along those lines as far as I know.
Definitely you would need to have the bike dyno tuned as the auto tune uses the o2 to help tune
Quote from: danaid on May 22, 2014, 03:17:53 PM
Definitely you would need to have the bike dyno tuned as the auto tune uses the o2 to help tune
Kinda. The AutoTune swaps out the stock O2 sensors for wide bands. Conveniently, the EVO motor bungs are the correct size. Then it records recommendations in percentage values to bring the AFR up or down to meet the desired AFR. This is done without need for a dyno. The advantage of using a dyno is that a knowledgeable tech can evaluate the data and make changes accordingly. The AutoTune is sort of guessing because you set a theoretical AFR and then use your butt. It is not a wild guess, and nowhere as accurate as a dyno but you can definitely enhance the bike ridability and motor smoothness.
Scroll down to
Using the autotune software.
http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Support/powercommander_video_install_guides.aspx#ytplayer (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Support/powercommander_video_install_guides.aspx#ytplayer)
Oldndumb
So just to clarify since my o2 sensors are disabled if i get a pcv or bazazz can i skip connecting their o2 optimizers and just run their map and or get it tuned?
My system has the O2 sensors replaced by the widebands for the AutoTune, so I can not reply with authority. I do remember Raux and ungerhuer commenting along those lines. http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=63828.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=63828.0)
I do remember being disappointed after the reflash with the DP tune, (O2 disabled) and specifically the lumpy running at <5K, which was what prompted me to try the PCV and AutoTune. The PCV came with the Optimizers but because I installed the AutoTune at the same time, I never experienced running the PCV alone. Which reminds me, I still have the unused Optimizers if anyone cares to play with them.
I just had my 1100 Evo Dyno tuned yesterday. I have the stock ECU, BMC filter and comp werkes muffler. I first had the ECU re-flashed like you did. This allows the tuner to tune the ENTIRE rpm range. If you buy the PC-V for the 09-11 1100 you will not use the supplied o2 optimizer. Mine is still in the box. I now have NO popping at all, but i do ride with the db killer in so i know that helps a lot.
Dexter thats what i was looking for, nice. I have the DB killer in as well. Did it run better with the map on the PCV or did you just have them tune it right when it was put in?
It runs a million times better now. I did try it without the db killer but i like the sound of it with it in.
there's no idle mixture setting function in the conti ecu like there is in the marelli 5am the sport 1000 had. so you can't do that after you've turned off the lambda sensors.
i've found a few of the rexxer maps for the contis to be very lean at idle, and how they run overall is just a function of how good the mapping is and its suitability to your bike. generally, i always found on bikes that were set up in the same consistant method had very good consistancy with preset mapping, ie, back in the eprom days. but the new bikes without idle trimmers and the like can be a bit inconsistant at times.
i richen them up if required, but it depends what access the flasher has to doing that side of things. you can also do it via the bazzaz or pcv, which is what would be done if you had either of those fitted. while fitting the o2 optimisers or whatever each company likes to call their version if them does help there, disabling the lambda sensors in the ecu software is the most consistant in terms of stable result. it's just an extra cost step.
Cool thanks very much for the info. Since i have the reflash alreay I am going to add the bazzaz. Haven't decided yet if I'll take it to a dyno once installed or get the ZAFM *AutoTune for it.
Radracer6,
PowerCommander and Bazazz almost do the same thing, but each has its hardware and software differences. Just wondering why you picked Bazzazz? ???
re the popping and DB killer effect. I run the CompWerks DB killer but I enlarged the opening after several AutoTune remaps made it evident that the popping intensity and frequency were decreasing. After the last remap a few days ago almost all of the popping is gone.
(http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u76/oldndumb/001b.jpg) (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/oldndumb/media/001b.jpg.html)
(http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u76/oldndumb/006b.jpg) (http://s165.photobucket.com/user/oldndumb/media/006b.jpg.html)
Read both about PCV and Bazzaz both seemed like good options and both have an AutoTune add on. Chose the bazzaz because i read good things on the ducati and gixxer forums, but mainly also because another member sold me a used unit at a good price.
So my decision once I install will be either to dyno tune the bike which I assume is around 400-500 bucks or add the bazzaz autotune and self map for 250. I am also curious to see how it will run on the map bazzaz provides as well before that.
Old did you set your traget AFR at 13.0? Did the PCV software smooth the data? Thanks
Your decision was made too easy by a friend offering you a good deal. ;) Myself, I almost had analysis paralysis trying to read everything I could about both and speaking extensively with their sales and tech people. I finally went with the PC based on the hype that an O2 for each jug was better, and I had a friend who attended the PowerCommander training classes. As for the sensor for each jug argument, the Bazazz people can counter that position with seemingly factual info. No doubt in my mind that they are probably equally effective. One thing that the Bazzazz has in its favor is the software interface. Much more modern and intuitive.
I've set my AFR for 13.2 based on talking with PC. I have taken a few trips with it set to 13.6 at the higher throttle percents and RPMs for fuel economy. On long highway runs you can tell the difference in miles before getting the light. Yes, the AutoTune smooths out the tables. I have mine set to a low default of only ten percent at a time. That way, I can accept the changes without needing to precisely examine each cell for any outrageous (piston holing) changes. This meant going through the process frequently at first, but it is easy and only takes about ten minutes.
Using an autotune feature, you can fool with AFRs at all settings if searching for performance. Myself, performance is a bonus because my objective is smoothness or drivability, although spell check says that isn't a word. ;D
Deciding between an autotune vs a dyno session is easy. If a measurable performance gain is your objective, a dyno session is better 99.9% of the time. An autotune will enable the bike to run more as designed, but the only data comes from your butt dyno.....but you will definitely feel it.
Yea i dont really care about squeezing the last bit of power from this bike. Just want it to run right, get rid of the popping and smooth it out like you said.
Any of you guys install the PCV or Bazzaz yourself? Any tips? We're you able to get to all the wiring propping the tank up or did it have to come off completely?
Thanks :)
I attempted to install the bazzaz myself and go about halfway thru before I couldn't access clips anymore: i dont recall what they were for, but i have giant gorilla hands and didn't have the proper tools. I ended up having it installed when I had my valves done not too long after that.
Hi, so I wanted to submit an update on this. Today I installed the bazzaz, the injector connectors were a major PITA, I had to remove the batt box to get at the rear. Overall it too me 3-4 hrs mostly because of these hard to get to connectors, rest was easy. I installed the bazzaz auto tune AFM as well.
I decided to start self mapping from scratch so this is with a clear map. I have the MW reflash ECU with o2 removed and CW slip on. I went on a quick 20 minute ride and then looked over the AFR data. Most of the cells I was able to fill during this run were up to about 50% throttle and from 2.5 to 5k rpms.
So it seems me thinking the bike was running really lean is backed by the data. In all the cells I filled the AFM shOwed the bike was mostly in low 15s AFR. The suggestions were to add a lot of fuel in most of the cells, some around 20 or more percent. I smoothed the data however in the application to smooth any such big changes.
Now let me tell you, just from one run I definitely feel a big difference. The popping on deceleration and high rpm coasting was deceased by about 85 percent. I was popping nonstop before even some random backfiring. Now it is mostly gone. The bike on throttle feels more full, acceleration is so smooth now.
One other thing I noticed is the engine seems to get hot slower. On the same route I would hit 4 bars on my 1100 about half way, now it's running mostly at 3bars, then it will hit 4 toward end or when I hit city. Very pleased so far going to do a few more tunes.
Here's a pic of my initial tune, mind you the values are smaller because I used the data smoothing function
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o704/Kain2882/24c49aecdf85a8825fcffc6244731f70_zps879853c6.jpg)
For anyone that is interested here is my final map with the bazzaz self tune. Bike was running really lean down low and below 50% throttle, rich up on big throttle openings. It is so smooth now it's shocking, this is the best mod I've ever done.
2012 1100EVO with MW reflash, removed exhaust valve and O2 sensors and CWerkes Slip On in NYC.
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o704/Kain2882/Untitled_zps26fa30c8.jpg)
can you do each cylinder individually?
the autotuning tools are really going to help a lot of people. this is how i used to do them on the road, and you get really good results this way. you just need to sneak up on your target so you don't get an overshoot hystric thing going, and once you have a good basis you can always start moving back to a leaner cruise, etc. if you can do both cylinders then you can make them amazingly nice: smooth, powerful and economical.
altho these days location and heavy speed law enforcement out here means it's not practical. most people will be amazed how little time they spend with the throttle open in a non open road environment.
I believe the powercommander lets you tune each cylinder individually but could be wrong. The bazzaz doesn't as far as i know but lets you tune each gear if you want. I'm very happy how smooth it runs.
Question the guys tuned with the Bazzaz and PVC, if I drop a tooth on the front sprocket or two up on the rear do I have to retune the bike? I'm thinking no since engine rpm and throttle % openings will be the same....just difference on the wheel
no.
I bought some db killers for my Termi exhaust from a company in Germany. The tube is wider (wide enough to fit the tube from the Termi db killers in it with room to spare) and shorter. They are machined out of a single piece of aluminum and they sound great and very little popping, maybe just a bit when cold. I get popping on decel with the Termi db killers removed (and it is just way too loud IMO), less popping with them in but not loud enough IMO.
Like all the others, my 1100 EVO popped precipitously when new, to the point that I complained about it at the 600 mile service. I left it alone and it mellowed-out over time, as the tech said it probably would.
9000 miles later, and I have absolutely no quarrel with how it runs.
Am I the only one here who's bike runs just fine in totally stock trim? ???