After finally getting my '93 M900 back together the bloody thing won't start! It's turning over, just! At first I was thinking a bad battery, but three different batteries and a starter pack no differences! The starter solenoid is good. The only other thing I can think of is the starter motor.
Any other ideas, suggestions or comments?
bad earth? crap leads?
Quote from: brad black on December 18, 2014, 02:32:31 AM
bad earth? crap leads?
Leads are good, I was wondering about the earth as the frame has been freshly powder coated! Should I run a tap into the frame earthing point?
If I read you right, its bearly turning over with a good battery?? Didnt you change pistons and rings? Can it bee an tight fit sylinder/rings?
Quote from: Graymonster on December 18, 2014, 02:56:08 AM
If I read you right, its bearly turning over with a good battery?? Didnt you change pistons and rings? Can it bee an tight fit sylinder/rings?
Yes, I fitted JE Pistons and rings it turns by hand very easily please God don't be the Pistons [bang]
Quote from: MonsterMadMarty on December 18, 2014, 03:03:49 AM
Yes, I fitted JE Pistons and rings it turns by hand very easily please God don't be the Pistons [bang]
Crossing my fingers its a quick fix, running a tap into earth point....
yep, clean up the earth points. they need a good metel to metal contact.
that'd be the first step in the dance...
Check if the groud that goes from the motor to the frame is ok . There supposed to be a wire that goes from the motor to the frame usualy near the rearsets....
Or if you have some of these symptoms...
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=68621.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=68621.0)
I orginally pulled this bike apart 18 months ago and after the cosmetics were done (frame powder coated, wheels painted, nuts n bolts plated) I assembled the bike using a spare engine I have while the orginal engine was in the process of its rebuild. That worked fine so I'm assuming it can't be the earth! I have a spare brand new starter motor so I might try that today (I did rebuild the old stater motor with new contacts but I may have over tighten the connecting bolt and done some damage! [bang]), plus while I have the alternator cover off I'll check out the sprag spring, great link Ducatigirl100 [thumbsup]
if an earth lead contacts the frame remove all powder between the earth lead and frame. not just the thread.
better still, piss off the stupid lead that goes from engine case to frame and just go engine to battery. also clean the frame under the airbox mount earth point.
bare metal under any earth.
[popcorn]
I have some good news....... & I have some farking terrible news!
The good news is the starter motor is fine! As I had it out and a new starter sat on the shelf I replace the starter with the NOS one.
Once everything was reassemble and with spark plugs removed it turn over beautifully and could have turned over all day. BUT..... With spark plugs in it struggles to turn move than half to one turn! Could it be as Graymonster suggested, a tight fitting ring?
[bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang][bang] [bang] [bang]
Quote from: brad black on December 18, 2014, 05:16:47 PM
if an earth lead contacts the frame remove all powder between the earth lead and frame. not just the thread.
better still, piss off the stupid lead that goes from engine case to frame and just go engine to battery. also clean the frame under the airbox mount earth point.
bare metal under any earth.
Absolutely as Brad says.
Does the harness still have that super-dodgy y-connector for the 12V+ lead off of the battery?
As Brad Black said, battery ground directly to engine. You should still have a ground path from the frame to the battery to assure the rest of the electrics operate correctly. Still not good? Positive lead from your volt meter to the negative post on the battery, negative to clean metal on the starter, like an ear a mounting bolt goes through. Crank engine. more than .5 volts? Bad ground. Now, positive on the positive terminal negative on the starter lug. hit the starter button. More than .5 volts on that side? High resistance at a connection there.
Oh, don't assume one of those three batteries must be good. Charge and load test.
An update:
Earthing points have been filed back to bare metal, every nut, bolt & top hat washer has been cleaned and polished. All cable ends have been cleaned and polished to a mirror like finish.
Still won't bloody start [bang]
It's better, it turns over maybe two or three time and then the earth cable from battery to frame starts smoking! Next step, all new cables! Might be awhile now as it school holidays and I get very little garage time :'(
Other explanation ....
If you powercoat a frame or paint the motor ... the place where the 2 big bolts link the frame to the motor HAS to be bear metal...
Both The motor and the frame have to be bear metal before linking the frame and the motor together
The groud cable alone is not enough.... the motor has to touch the frame
It would explain why you battery cable is smoking ! [thumbsup]
[thumbsup]
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on December 19, 2014, 07:32:23 PM
Other explanation ....
If you powercoat a frame or paint the motor ... the place where the 2 big bolts link the frame to the motor HAS to be bear metal...
Both The motor and the frame have to be bear metal before linking the frame and the motor together
The groud cable alone is not enough.... the motor has to touch the frame
It would explain why you battery cable is smoking ! [thumbsup]
DING DING DING!
[thumbsup]
Ding, ding, ding ?
You won the prize [thumbsup] A US expression.
;D
I'm about ready to push the bloody thing down to the end of the back alley and set fire to the fokker [bang]
Maybe try running another wire from the battery to the engine...
I did it on mine, ran it from the negative, across the frame to the spot where the other cable is attached.
All new heavy duty wires installed from Fleabay:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=150518639775 (http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=150518639775)
Still no better [bang]
Would a higher CCA battery help? Failing that, I'll pull the motor out again next week and clean up all contact points between engine and frame!!! Grrrr......
How "big" a battery you running?
Quote from: MonsterMadMarty on December 22, 2014, 11:23:35 PM
All new heavy duty wires installed from Fleabay:
http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=150518639775 (http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=150518639775)
Still no better [bang]
Would a higher CCA battery help? Failing that, I'll pull the motor out again next week and clean up all contact points between engine and frame!!! Grrrr......
Arrgh, I know this comment is of zero use to you after the fact, but I wish you hadn't dropped $120 of your hard earned cash on those battery cables. :( Dude is selling snake oil man, that is literally car stereo amplifier wire. I googled the brand name that's printed on em aways back.
It'll work great of course, it's just way over priced.
Quote from: Rudemouthsky on December 23, 2014, 12:13:51 AM
Arrgh, I know this comment is of zero use to you after the fact, but I wish you hadn't dropped $120 of your hard earned cash on those battery cables. :( Dude is selling snake oil man, that is literally car stereo amplifier wire. I googled the brand name that's printed on em aways back.
you've clearly never seen what they can do for a 996sps.
start looking for voltage drops or resistance. measure each section, find out where the issue is. seems like you're not being overly logical due to induced stress.
Quote from: brad black on December 23, 2014, 01:44:10 AM
you've clearly never seen what they can do for a 996sps.
start looking for voltage drops or resistance. measure each section, find out where the issue is. seems like you're not being overly logical due to induced stress.
This [thumbsup]
1- the problem is not mecanical because you can turn the engine over... and its normal when you plug the spark plugs in ..the engine is hard to turn. well compression does that
2-if a battry cable is smoking ... this clearly indicate that you have voltage resistance somewhere...battery wires are usually 6AWG gauge.... to smoke a wire like that ..you need ALOT of resistance.
Dont be discourage
Did you do the checks I posted?
Quote from: howie on December 18, 2014, 08:06:43 PM
As Brad Black said, battery ground directly to engine. You should still have a ground path from the frame to the battery to assure the rest of the electrics operate correctly. Still not good? Positive lead from your volt meter to the negative post on the battery, negative to clean metal on the starter, like an ear a mounting bolt goes through. Crank engine. more than .5 volts? Bad ground. Now, positive on the positive terminal negative on the starter lug. hit the starter button. More than .5 volts on that side? High resistance at a connection there.
Oh, don't assume one of those three batteries must be good. Charge and load test.
As ducatigirl100 said, smoking cable is from high resistance. Bet you find a huge voltage drop on the negative side of the circuit. Then you trace back in a logical sequence. When you get to the connection where the large drop reduces you found the big problem. Assuming you cleaned the powder coatings as suggested by ducatigirl100 I suspect the problem might be paint between the starter motor and case.
This video may help you. Yes, it for a car. Same basic circuit.
Do you get sparks? How's the plugs look?
Cheers Geoff, yea it's taken awhile as the kids have been off school but next week I hope to get it all sorted! Looks like I may need to remove the clutch cover and see if the spacer behind there is missing!! I replaced the cover with a spare I had when reassembling the motor so I may have missed something!
Are you going to the Scrambler launch Wednesday evening?
Quote from: ducatigirl100 on December 19, 2014, 07:32:23 PM
Other explanation ....
If you powercoat a frame or paint the motor ... the place where the 2 big bolts link the frame to the motor HAS to be bear metal...
Both The motor and the frame have to be bear metal before linking the frame and the motor together
The groud cable alone is not enough.... the motor has to touch the frame
It would explain why you battery cable is smoking ! [thumbsup]
[thumbsup]
Ok, after replacing all the cables and dropping the engine out to sand back the mounting contact of paint I've reassembled everything and....... it turns out I'm a fringing idiot!!!!
It's the clutch basket is adding to the problem! it's rubbing against the housing!
So, the next question, and a new thread started. Should there be a spacer between the clutch basket and the part it attaches to? (Primary driven gear I think it's called!)
Cheers to everyone so far for input especially ducatigirl100 as I believe the main problem was the bad earth.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: MonsterMadMarty on January 10, 2015, 06:40:40 AM
Cheers Geoff, yea it's taken awhile as the kids have been off school but next week I hope to get it all sorted! Looks like I may need to remove the clutch cover and see if the spacer behind there is missing!! I replaced the cover with a spare I had when reassembling the motor so I may have missed something!
Are you going to the Scrambler launch Wednesday evening?
Nah. I'll be on-site at another dirty minesite! :(
Quote from: MonsterMadMarty on January 10, 2015, 06:38:57 PM
Ok, after replacing all the cables and dropping the engine out to sand back the mounting contact of paint I've reassembled everything and....... it turns out I'm a fringing idiot!!!!
It's the clutch basket is adding to the problem! it's rubbing against the housing!
So, the next question, and a new thread started. Should there be a spacer between the clutch basket and the part it attaches to? (Primary driven gear I think it's called!)
Cheers to everyone so far for input especially ducatigirl100 as I believe the main problem was the bad earth.
[thumbsup]
[thumbsup] I'm happy to help [thumbsup]
Spacer fitted, slipper clutch fitted everything else bolted back on. Push the stater button fired straight up ;D
[Dolph]
I'll report more in a few days
[Dolph]
[thumbsup] [thumbsup]