At the shop, in addition to a LPG fork lift, we also use an electric walk behind stacker/fork lift for light duty things and putting heavy parts into and out of the lathes.
When it would start to move slower, we'd charge it and that's worked well for years. I check the level of the water in the batteries once in a while and until a few days ago, I have never had to add water. We put some distilled water in there and charged it over night and it's still moving pretty slow. I happened to find the manual for this thing and it says to charge if the batteries are 1/3 down, and not to repeatedly discharge the crap out of them or it will shorten the life.
So I'm thinking our maintenance has killed these batteries. There are 4 of them and they're 6v ea. I suspect they're a series/parallel deal to make 4 6v's into 2 12v's.
I would like to replace these with something that will require less maintenance (sealed, no water to add) and hopefully tolerate a less than perfect charging schedule.
My parents used this unit in their business. I charge it the same way they did and these batteries have lasted probably 10 years of light duty use.
The specs on the batteries that I found-
-Written on the front of the parts book "Battery 071419-001, 6volt, 117amp @ 20 hr rate, automotive type not industrial"
-On the internet "071419-001 BCI group 1 (no idea what that is) RC min 180 @ 75a (no idea what that is), 20hr rate 100 (no idea), 32 lb weight, LxWxH 9.00x6.78x8.88"
I found this http://www.powerstridebattery.com/group-1-battery (http://www.powerstridebattery.com/group-1-battery) as a potential cross over if I wanted another flooded battery.
Looking for an AGM or sealed battery, I'm not so sure what I'm looking for/at. Is there any reason any 6v battery wouldn't work for me (I know they need to be a deep cycle setup) Is there anything special about the batteries in there? I feel like this is over my pay grade ;D
Out of curiosity...
do you charge them as 6v individually, or do you charge as a pack, and at what voltage?
Did you add water to every battery or was one lower...did the plates show in any?
I think you'll have trouble finding a sealed 6v battery...
Maintenance free... http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SSB5/1/N0369.oap?ck=Search_N0369_-1_-1&pt=N0369&ppt=C0327 (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SSB5/1/N0369.oap?ck=Search_N0369_-1_-1&pt=N0369&ppt=C0327)
Also...being an automotive style battery makes them not deep cycle. You'd need a marine or commercial type battery to get that feature which would make it a different BCI group #. Maybe a revision in maintenance practices is in order...like every Friday afternoon it goes on a tender. :-\
This should help with Group # and more:
http://www.batteryplex.com/sheets/BCI_21170_Combined_with_Cover.pdf (http://www.batteryplex.com/sheets/BCI_21170_Combined_with_Cover.pdf)
I'm a bit surprised they spec an automotive battery for the application.
Auto batteries don't work well when deep cycled.
If they are indeed wired up to give 12v to the motor, I'd replace with 4 of 12V deep-cycle batteries, and alter the cabling to suit that.
There are issues with recharging multiple-battery setups, but I've got no guidance beyond that.
I'm assuming the manufacturer is gone?
<Disclaimer: I'm not an Electric Vehicle expert, by any stretch. YMMV>
Quote from: ducpainter on January 10, 2015, 10:10:34 AM
Out of curiosity...
do you charge them as 6v individually, or do you charge as a pack, and at what voltage?
Did you add water to every battery or was one lower...did the plates show in any?
I think you'll have trouble finding a sealed 6v battery...
Maintenance free... http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SSB5/1/N0369.oap?ck=Search_N0369_-1_-1&pt=N0369&ppt=C0327 (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SSB5/1/N0369.oap?ck=Search_N0369_-1_-1&pt=N0369&ppt=C0327)
Also...being an automotive style battery makes them not deep cycle. You'd need a marine or commercial type battery to get that feature which would make it a different BCI group #. Maybe a revision in maintenance practices is in order...like every Friday afternoon it goes on a tender. :-\
Well, I'll note that the specs I listed as written on the front of the manual are just that, someone wrote them. Likely my mom or dad. So it's not gospel.
The unit has a built in charger. You open the cabinet, pull out the 110v cord and plug it in and it charges everything at once. Just like any other charger, needle moves from high toward low as the batteries charge up.
2 batteries had water below the plates so we added water. Or I should say Mike added water, i wasn't there. Also, I don't know if there are 3 separate compartments in the batteries to match the 3 fill caps, or if any cap will allow the entire battery to be filled. If the former, I know he didn't remove the batteries to fill which he would have had to have done to get to all three fill caps on both low batteries.
If that's the case, perhaps they still don't have enough water. A quick check with a flash light should tell me more about that.
Quote from: Speeddog on January 10, 2015, 10:23:13 AM
This should help with Group # and more:
http://www.batteryplex.com/sheets/BCI_21170_Combined_with_Cover.pdf (http://www.batteryplex.com/sheets/BCI_21170_Combined_with_Cover.pdf)
I'm a bit surprised they spec an automotive battery for the application.
Auto batteries don't work well when deep cycled.
If they are indeed wired up to give 12v to the motor, I'd replace with 4 of 12V deep-cycle batteries, and alter the cabling to suit that.
There are issues with recharging multiple-battery setups, but I've got no guidance beyond that.
I'm assuming the manufacturer is gone?
<Disclaimer: I'm not an Electric Vehicle expert, by any stretch. YMMV>
The maker of the truck is Crown, still around AFAIK and the batteries that are in there are made by Deka, and I see those are f/s on the net still.
So if I replaced with 4 12v id have to switch from 2 6v in series (which makes 1 12v) then both 12v's in parallel over to all 4 in parallel, correct?
Assuming the built in charger is functioning properly, and not overcharging, the simplest, easiest, most cost effective method is to replace the batteries with the same type and just don't discharge it too deeply or store it discharged.
It doesn't seem to me that the batteries in there gave a bad service life.
YMMV
AFAIK, battery cells are separate.
Yes, verify all cells are topped off, it may be just fine after that and a recharge.
Yes, you'd have all 4 of the 12V batteries in parallel, all + terminals on the same wire, and all - terminals on the (other) same wire.
But....
Check with Crown before doing anything beyond refilling and charging.
Someone may have switched to the automotive batteries due to cost or availability or ....
Quote from: ducpainter on January 10, 2015, 10:42:20 AM
Assuming the built in charger is functioning properly, and not overcharging, the simplest, easiest, most cost effective method is to replace the batteries with the same type and just don't discharge it too deeply or store it discharged.
It doesn't seem to me that the batteries in there gave a bad service life.
YMMV
Im in agreement with this.
Quote from: Speeddog on January 10, 2015, 10:44:54 AM
AFAIK, battery cells are separate.
Yes, verify all cells are topped off, it may be just fine after that and a recharge.
Yes, you'd have all 4 of the 12V batteries in parallel, all + terminals on the same wire, and all - terminals on the (other) same wire.
But....
Check with Crown before doing anything beyond refilling and charging.
Someone may have switched to the automotive batteries due to cost or availability or ....
I just took a look and verified that the 3 compartments are all separate. They all have water covering the plates.
The lift works, just very slowly.
This change was sudden. Like we were using it, it was slowing a little and I thought it should go on the charger and after the charge it was just stuck in slo mo.
Think the best course is to replace the batteries? Should I have them tested first (if I even can- auto parts store?)
From reading it seems the worst things for a lead acid battery are charging with the plates exposed, and storing with it discharged.
Based on the maintenance history I'd just replace them.
10 years of life for this type of battery is pretty good.
Batteries for that type of application really are a different breed, an automotive battery is designed to provide large amounts of current over a short time (cranking). The type of battery for a forklift application is called a traction battery, designed to be not only "deep cycled" but also to provide a medium amount of current over time.
I've had a look at the Crown manual too and I see that those batteries are still available.
I recommend taking those specs to your local "batteries r us" (or whatever they're called) and seeing if they can do you an equivalent at a better price. Remember that the on board charger is designed to look after the battery that was supplied from new, the wrong charge can make a difference to the life of your batteries.
Every time the plates are exposed to air you loose some battery life. Also, as the battery deteriorates it will use more water. The 117 amps @ 20 hours sound like someone's interpretation of AH rating, or maybe just a different version of AH rating for industrial batteries AH rating is unit of measurement for battery capacity, obtained by multiplying a current flow in amperes by the time in hours of discharge. If so, the AH rating of 171 for a 6 volt makes sense. More amp hours is a good thing. The battery is a storage device. The motor will only pull what it needs. There should be a tag on the motor stating requirements, or, at least the horsepower or watt rating of the motor as well as volts required. As said before, group tells you the size and terminal location. Yep, you should use deep cycle batteries. AGM 6 volt batteries should be available at part stores that deal with farm tractors and/or material handling equipment. Big bucks, but Optima does make these as well as others. These folk can also build a battery to meet your specs http://www.dekabatteries.com These folks built a battery for for a 48 volt WW II fork lift we had. Fork lift cost $1, battery $2000 back in the late '70's.
If you are curious, you can test individual cells easily since these are flooded, either with a hydrometer or voltmeter. With a voltmeter look, place negative on the negative battery terminal, positive in the cell. On a fully charged battery you should see 2.1 volts/cell, in other words, 2.1, 4.2,6.3 volts. Me, I wouldn't bother, those batteries worked for about 5 years longer than the should have.
A battery may look good when you put a voltmeter across it, but it's under load where you'll see how good it is, as an example I had a 110v battery bank last week that measured a nice 13.2 v across each (nominally 12 volt) battery, however when on load I had 90 volts across one battery indicating that it's internal resistance was high.
Battery sizing is a dark art so don't risk literally blowing up the batteries and yourselves for a few bucks or to save yourself 10 minutes a week of maintenance.
I also forgot to mention that your on board charger will probably have too high a charge rate for sealed batteries if it is designed for flooded cells, I have seen several instances of batteries that have blown up like balloons under a charge rate that is too high and sprayed acid far and wide. In one case over a million bucks of damage to an installation. So be careful.
( I worked with batteries and chargers in industrial applications for over 10 years, so I have a bit of an idea of what I'm talking about)
Yes, the only valid field tests for batteries are load test, AC conductance or sulphation with a charger. IMO, load testing is more accurate, but stresses batteries. AC conductance does not stress batteries. If testing an AGM or gel battery with an AC conductance unit it must have a setting for those batteries. I forgot about the charger too. Easy solution? Buy a shop style charger with a setting for AGM batteries.
I think I will just buy another set of 6v batteries and do a better job of maintaining them.
Do you think I could use a battery tender to keep these topped off? I have more faith in the tech inside the tender than the on board charger. It is, after all, from 1979.
If a tender would work, 6v or 12v? I would want to wire it handle all four batteries at once.
If it's a 12V motor you'd want a 12V charger.
I'd check the operation of the onboard charger. Lead acid battery technology isn't that pointy.
Even though the batteries are 6v?
Pointy?
You need more than a tender. This would be the the minimum, http://www.impactbattery.com/noco-genius-g4-four-bank-6v-12v-charger.html (http://www.impactbattery.com/noco-genius-g4-four-bank-6v-12v-charger.html) and would take about a couple of days to fully charge batteries of that size. This would be better http://www.impactbattery.com/quick-charge-25-amp-no-polarity-charger-6v-12v.html and this http://www.sears.com/solar-6-12-24v-60-40-15-5-250a-wheel-charger/p-SPM7968295713?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5 even better.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 11, 2015, 05:39:42 AM
If it's a 12V motor you'd want a 12V charger.
I'd check the operation of the onboard charger. Lead acid battery technology isn't that pointy.
Sort of. If it is a 12volt motor and you understand the wiring you can charge the ones in series with a 12 volt. Otherwise, safest is take the cables off and charge each as a 6 volt. Flooded batteries? No reason not to use the on board charger. AGM? Voltage will be too low to fully charge the batteries. Unless the on board charger has a float mode it can also overcharge, particularly important with a AGM.
is it possible to overcharge a flooded battery
What's the easy way to determine if I should put it on the charger?
Install a volt meter?
Yes. I/m surprised it doesn't have one. Also try and keep charging voltage below 15 volts. Did you find the specs on the motor? Is there a wiring schematic anywhere?
No on board volt meter. I can not find specs on the motor. There are no details listed in the parts book. It just says "motor" [laugh]
I have the wiring schematic for the whole machine.
I don't know how to read it though. It is clear that they're putting 2 6v batteries in series but I'm only making the assumption they're pairing the outputs of those pairs in a parallel setup.
Im uploading pics now, maybe that will help.
So at what voltage would I want to plug the charger in? Im still not clear if I'm reading 6v as full or 12v
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/SMT/IMG_20150111_124001_zpstxwfk9qu.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/SMT/IMG_20150111_124001_zpstxwfk9qu.jpg.html)
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/900rider/SMT/IMG_20150111_123956_zpstvas4ybo.jpg) (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/900rider/media/SMT/IMG_20150111_123956_zpstvas4ybo.jpg.html)
All I can really say is that the pairs of 6 volt are in series, each pair, 12 volts. Problem is I have no idea what some of the other components are and cannot read the print (might not help anyway). On board charger work? If so, just replace the batteries. As far as a voltmeter goes, you can either put across a single 6 volt or a pair that are in series. If you choose a single 6 volt, try to let it not fall below 6.05, pair of sixes, not below 12.10. Fully charged for 12 would be 12.6-12.8, an individual 6, 6.3-6.4. Voltage should be read after a load is supplied (hit a switch) or you will be reading surface voltage. As long as the plates are covered with liquid, do not top off until charged. If plates are exposed to air, cover plates with water. Do not overcharge!
Quote from: Monsterlover on January 11, 2015, 05:47:44 AM
Even though the batteries are 6v?
Pointy?
Rocket science term.
Pointy end goes up. ;)
Quote from: howie on January 11, 2015, 05:55:05 AM
You need more than a tender. This would be the the minimum, http://www.impactbattery.com/noco-genius-g4-four-bank-6v-12v-charger.html (http://www.impactbattery.com/noco-genius-g4-four-bank-6v-12v-charger.html) and would take about a couple of days to fully charge batteries of that size. This would be better http://www.impactbattery.com/quick-charge-25-amp-no-polarity-charger-6v-12v.html (http://www.impactbattery.com/quick-charge-25-amp-no-polarity-charger-6v-12v.html) and this http://www.sears.com/solar-6-12-24v-60-40-15-5-250a-wheel-charger/p-SPM7968295713?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5 (http://www.sears.com/solar-6-12-24v-60-40-15-5-250a-wheel-charger/p-SPM7968295713?prdNo=5&blockNo=5&blockType=G5) even better.
Back to this, why no to a 12v (or 6v) tender?
A tender would work, but it would take much longer than over night. The amperage removed from the batteries needs to be replaced. Assume a 45 AH battery, in your case, x4. You use 10 amp hours of power from each battery during the day. You need to replace 40 amps. At the Battery Tender Plus's output of 1.25 amps that would take 32 hours. They claim the plus will do the equivalent of 3 amps (don't know how) it would still take 13 hours and 18 minutes. True, the slower you charge the battery the better it is for the battery, but how slow is too slow? You could speed things up by getting a set of four, but that would be expensive.
Well, they way I see it, tenders are cheap, and they work really well even unattended.
I leave my bikes plugged into them for 6 months at a time during the off season, and I have a 6v tender keeping the system back up battery on my Mazak mill topped off since that machine sits a lot.
I don't know how much use would equate to 10ah but typical day for this unit is, turn on, get something off a shelf, count out some parts, put skid back on shelf, shut unit off.
Then it sits for a day (or days) or a few weeks. Then it gets used to load a few heavy parts into machines (over 50lbs or so) and that might represent 15 or 20 minutes of use and then it's back to dormancy.
Would that eat up 10ah?
Also, thanks for all this info, im learning something.
Quote from: Monsterlover on January 13, 2015, 12:38:56 PM
Well, they way I see it, tenders are cheap, and they work really well even unattended.
I leave my bikes plugged into them for 6 months at a time during the off season, and I have a 6v tender keeping the system back up battery on my Mazak mill topped off since that machine sits a lot.
I don't know how much use would equate to 10ah but typical day for this unit is, turn on, get something off a shelf, count out some parts, put skid back on shelf, shut unit off.
Then it sits for a day (or days) or a few weeks. Then it gets used to load a few heavy parts into machines (over 50lbs or so) and that might represent 15 or 20 minutes of use and then it's back to dormancy.
Would that eat up 10ah?
It all depends on the motor specs and condition of the wiring in the unit. If you knew the hp of the motor you could calculate the battery draw.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 13, 2015, 12:46:20 PM
It all depends on the motor specs and condition of the wiring in the unit. If you knew the hp of the motor you could calculate the battery draw.
Yep, motor draw. Sounds like you might be OK with the tenders and fresh batteries with such low usage. Our fork lift (7000 lbs with a 3000 lb 48 volt battery) would load or unload 20-30 American V8s with a battery that was about close to dead, specific gravity in most cells less than 1.50. Try it and see how it works out. In a pinch you could speed things up with this not so smart not so expensive charger http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-5212A-Automatic-Handheld-Battery/dp/B0009IBJCQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1421185981&sr=1-3&keywords=automotive+battery+chargers (http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-5212A-Automatic-Handheld-Battery/dp/B0009IBJCQ/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1421185981&sr=1-3&keywords=automotive+battery+chargers)