Today I had a student do something to me today, that if I were a female, would be considered inappropriate unwanted sexual behavior.
He.... thought he was being funny. I.... found no humor in it.
Other students saw it happen and thought it was funny, and another staff member may or may not have witnessed it.
I wrote up the appropriate behavior referral paperwork and showed it to the campus supervisor (our security dude)
His recommendation was that I inform the administration, but was chock full of the same reserve I am currently feeling with regards to how to handle this.
My problem with this is.....
The kid has a shitload of emotional and behavior problems. His home-life is shit, and it filters into what goes on at school.
He's in counseling for a variety of issues (drug, violence, etc..) The last thing I want to do is tack on something that will literally stick with him for life (a sexual predator label), but I also feel that if nothing is done ( via me keeping my mouth shut), that I will in some ways be green-lighting future (far worse) behaviors.
make the beast with two backs....
I have a hard time writing people off as absolute worthless shits, and have witnessed the turnaround of those who society has labeled lost, so branding him with a label the courts will more than likely stick him with, worries me, but the idea of him assaulting somebody weaker/without a voice, worries me even more.
Stomp out the flame.
He's already written his history... don't allow him to beast with two backs up someone else's. You have an obligation to do so.
Report it and recommend remedial action rather than punitive action due to mitigating circumstances. Kid's obviously messed up, so you protect society and help the kid at the same time.
Quote from: koko64 on November 29, 2016, 06:29:53 PM
Report it and recommend remedial action rather than punitive action due to mitigating circumstances. Kid's obviously messed up, so you protect society and help the kid at the same time.
Not sure what your options are, but this ^ sounds most appropriate.
What is the age of this lad?
You actually give a shit which helps you be good at your job, that's clearly why it's vexing you. It's the dialectic of human service work. I suggest a balanced response and at risk of ruining my advice I offer some comedy relief. You need to also laugh about this. I'm your age and all washed up, so you must still be damn pretty. [laugh]
I have used humour as a lead in to a more serious lesson when working with young offenders/felons in the past. For example I probably would have said "I didnt know you felt that way son, but look at me you cant help yourself, don't be too hard on him guys he's only human". Then again to the group, "What would you do to him if he did that to your kid sister or mama?", (probably while holding him in a rear naked choke or arm/wrist lock). I'm guessing I probably had more leeway in my past role than you do. If you are a teacher you dont have that luxury.
Totally not trying to discourage feedback, but....
The reality of the situation is honestly overwhelming.
If it's a human issue that's got Grampa (AKA BP) vexed, there's little hope of any substantive help coming from anywhere short of a trans-existence communique' from Mother Teresa.
True. People account for the physical and intellectual labour of a job, but often dont realise the emotional labour involved in some people's work. It's a significant cost incurred in some occupations for sure.
Quote from: koko64 on November 29, 2016, 06:29:53 PM
Report it and recommend remedial action rather than punitive action due to mitigating circumstances. Kid's obviously messed up, so you protect society and help the kid at the same time.
If possible. Is there someone in administration with whom you can discuss the situation off record?
Quote from: Speeddog on November 29, 2016, 08:22:56 PM
Not sure what your options are, but this ^ sounds most appropriate.
What is the age of this lad?
[/quote.
14]
Young enough to have a decent chance of being brought back onto the right path.
Yep.
Because shit was seen and the subsequent conversation with the student overheard, I am forced in having to bring it to the admins attention. Ultimately what happens to the student will be their call, but I know they will ultimately ask me if I want to press charges, and that's where I'm conflicted.
My opinion on the how and why of kids behavior like this has been altered over the past few years. Some of that has to do with what I've learned when I got my degree, but most of it has to do with getting to know these kids on a personal level.
So many of them have been told that they are worthless pieces of shit from those people who are supposed to be their source of love and support, do eventually just stop being kids, and start becoming what they been told they are. It's hard to blame most of these kids for where they are and how they behave after you have met their guardians. Keep in mind, that's not an excuse and dismissal of their actions, but after awhile, just locking a kid up, for every wrong step, just solidifies the idea to the kid that he or she is worthless, and at that point, they just give up, and really stop caring about everything. I've seen that in kids, little kids, and it f'n kills me. Especially after having witnessed kids have the " pulling my own head out of my ass" epiphany.
All that being said.... I know that if a kid will do what he did to a much larger than than himself member of staff, he'll have no problem doing it to someone his own size. And that reality hurts just me just as bad.
Quote from: koko64 on November 29, 2016, 08:43:45 PM
You actually give a shit which helps you be good at your job, that's clearly why it's vexing you. It's the dialectic of human service work. I suggest a balanced response and at risk of ruining my advice I offer some comedy relief. You need to also laugh about this. I'm your age and all washed up, so you must still be damn pretty. [laugh]
I have used humour as a lead in to a more serious lesson when working with young offenders/felons in the past. For example I probably would have said "I didnt know you felt that way son, but look at me you cant help yourself, don't be too hard on him guys he's only human". Then again to the group, "What would you do to him if he did that to your kid sister or mama?", (probably while holding him in a rear naked choke or arm/wrist lock). I'm guessing I probably had more leeway in my past role than you do. If you are a teacher you dont have that luxury.
I pulled him out of the classroom and asked him if he was sure that he wanted to spend the rest of his life explaining to potential girlfriends, job interviewers, and landlords how he earned a sex offender title feeling up an old man.
[laugh]
Thats worse than doing hard time. ;D
You have to report it.
-The liability on you and the school if he does something that could have been prevented is one aspect.
-Another future victim dealing with whatever he does to them is another issue (that you have already thought of).
-People that do stuff and get away with it tend to escalate to worse behavior.
-Most likely your policies require it and you could be risking your career by not reporting it.
True. There are legal obligations. Down here we have mandatory reporting.
Quote from: Speeddog on November 29, 2016, 08:58:12 PM
Totally not trying to discourage feedback, but....
The reality of the situation is honestly overwhelming.
If it's a human issue that's got Grampa (AKA BP) vexed, there's little hope of any substantive help coming from anywhere short of a trans-existence communique' from Mother Teresa.
Not to make light of the situation, but...
a communique' from Mother might work too.
Quote from: hbliam on November 29, 2016, 11:59:11 PM
You have to report it.
-The liability on you and the school if he does something that could have been prevented is one aspect.
-Another future victim dealing with whatever he does to them is another issue (that you have already thought of).
-People that do stuff and get away with it tend to escalate to worse behavior.
-Most likely your policies require it and you could be risking your career by not reporting it.
^^This^^
Undocumented problems simply don't exist. Until next time. And the time after that...
Quote from: hbliam on November 29, 2016, 11:59:11 PM
You have to report it.
-The liability on you and the school if he does something that could have been prevented is one aspect.
-Another future victim dealing with whatever he does to them is another issue (that you have already thought of).
-People that do stuff and get away with it tend to escalate to worse behavior.
-Most likely your policies require it and you could be risking your career by not reporting it.
Yep.
As a fellow high school teacher (in Arizona), let me just acknowledge how much this dilemma sucks for you. I've never been exactly this situation, but have had a few less serious experiences that give me a glimpse of how you're feeling.
It sounds like you've already done what I would advise - bring in your admin, don't try to deal with this all by yourself. As hard as it must have been, you did the right thing. I'm sorry to hear that you were put in this position, but I think you did the right thing by yourself, by the school, and ultimately by the student himself.
[thumbsup]
I talked to the admin this morning. I should have talked to him right after it happened, as per protocol. (A new one for me). He then looked up the proper legal actions, and filled out the appropriate forms. When the student arrived this morning, he was held in the office until the admin spoke with him. He refused to write a statement. ( I was in the classroom during all this). The student was then suspended until all the proper authorities have been informed. I wrote up a formal account of what happened and submitted that to the admin after school.
The best I can tell, the severity of his punishment will be dependent on what probation says, relative to whatever his record is, and what the terms of his probation are.
I've been sick to my stomach all day, and am somewhat relieved that the ball feels to be out of my court
You do the best you can, given the constraints you're faced with.
Basically a +1 from me to everything that's already been posted.
You did the right thing, no question.
The dominating thought that I had until I read where you talked with admin was if he went on and did this, or worse, to 14yo girl what would you say to her parents?
I know in that scenario it's unlikely you'd ever have contact for them but it's a thought question for reference.
Generally I find that most times I'm on the fence about something and I feel i have to ask advice I normally already know the answer like I'm guessing you did.
Tough day for sure.
Ok… so here’s todays update.
Last Thursday I took a slight detour on my way home due to a freeway onramp closure. As I’m driving up the street, I literally almost run into the kid. (He was serving his suspension cruising around on his bike). Today, when I went through the classrooms taking the lunch count, when I enter into the Learning Center (our special ed classroom) the kid blurts out , “Mr. K., I know where you live!†My initial thought was that he was referring to having seen me last week driving through a neighborhood I’m not normally in. I initially blew the comment off, but, after what happened during the last class of the day, I dunno.
So, as our last class begins (this is the classroom of students the “groper†is in. It is also our youngest grouping of students 7th -9th graders) the kids are making their way into the room and over to their desks. As they walk past me, one of the kids reaches out and pinches my right nipple, and says nothing as he does it. The kid just so happens to be the same kid I was having a conversation with, when the kid#1 grabbed me last week. I was on my way out of the classroom to call parents about detention times, so I planned to deal with kid #2 when I got back. I returned to the classroom later than expected, and had drop off a few things and hurry back out go get the schools lunches ready (we’re a small campus, so we all wear many hats), thinking that I’ll deal with kid #2 at the very end of the day. As I walk out past the students, kid #2 then grabs my ass. At that point lunch can wait, so I pull kid #2 out and explain to him the trouble he has now jumped into. Kid #1 is now standing in the doorway shouting that Mr K. is a snitch, and that shit’s gonn’a get made up and that the school is all make the beast with two backsed up. I tell him to close the door, and proceed to tell kid #2 that he’ll now be dealing with probation. I radioed the admin on my way to get lunch started, and explained to him what had just transpired. As I was assembling the lunches, probation staff came out and asked what had happened, but was focused more on what kid #1 was saying and doing than on what kid #2 had just done. They eventually took kid #1 out of the classroom in handcuffs. Kid #2 was pulled out of class by the admin and taken to the office. After classes are let out, I’m positioned outside of campus as part of a security detail, so I’n suck out there and have no idea what the conversations were between probation and the admin regarding the two kids. But…. after about 15 minutes, I see kid #1 riding his bike around the outside of campus, and kid #2 being escorted to his mom’s car by the admin.
After my day was over, I went and chatted with one of the probation officers about what had gone on and what they thought was going to happen, but they seemed to be a little lost as to what will come of this. I left them and went to fill out behavior referral for kid #2, and took that over to the admins office, hoping to see what he had to say. He had left the campus by that point, so I have no idea what the make the beast with two backs is going to happen.
As of right now, I’m kinda pissed off. If nothing more than a one-day suspension is all that happens when they do this kind of shit, and grabbing me becomes the fun thing to do because there are no real consequences’…. I’m make the beast with two backsed.
On an semi unrelated note, I put in for a transfer to one of our lockup facilities. Not because I'm being scared off, but because it's one of the coveted positions with a longer yearly contract and an extra hour of work each day. Mo money!
Kill them. Kill them all. [evil]
I keed, I keed. [laugh]
Best of luck getting into the lockup scenario, Joel. It sucks, but you won't have to deal with poorly parented kids. I fear for our world sometimes. :-\
It's not a full time gig. It'd require too much liquor.
Sorry about the trouble, Joel.
Quote from: Satellite smithy on December 05, 2016, 04:36:31 PM
It's not a full time gig. It'd require too much liquor.
Sorry about the trouble, Joel.
Define too much.
I'm sorry about his trouble too.
It was simpler when I grew up. make the beast with two backs up and you got a beating from whomever you make the beast with two backsed up with.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2016, 04:54:22 PM
Define too much.
I'm sorry about his trouble too.
It was simpler when I grew up. make the beast with two backs up and you got a beating from whomever you make the beast with two backsed up with.
Truth.
Seems like a lot of kids now either got beat too much or not enough and now they're all fubar.
Quote from: Monsterlover on December 05, 2016, 04:55:43 PM
Truth.
Seems like a lot of kids now either got beat too much or not enough and now they're all fubar.
The kids that do nothing wrong and get beaten by a parent/guardian/adult for no reason are fubared.
The kids that do everything wrong because they believe there are no consequences are fubared...because there are no consequences.
We are basically...fubared.
Too much? when I have to hold onto the ground, daily, then I've been having too much.
Beatings were going away when I came through, but, I was terrified of the old man.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2016, 04:54:22 PM
Define too much.
I'm sorry about his trouble too.
It was simpler when I grew up. make the beast with two backs up and you got a beating from whomever you make the beast with two backsed up with.
Yep. Cops gave us the choice, official youth record or a hiding (or a deal with dad if you had one to give you a hiding). Local cops straightened me out and I'm grateful for their wisdom and discretion. Call it old fashioned early intervention. [evil]
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2016, 05:00:44 PM
The kids that do nothing wrong and get beaten by a parent/guardian/adult for no reason are fubared.
The kids that do everything wrong because they believe there are no consequences are fubared...because there are no consequences.
We are basically...fubared.
Sounds like you get it :D
I feel like many parents perpetuate this by getting all bent out of shape whenever anyone dares speak out against their kid. It's like they form this protective bubble around the kid and they never get a chance to see how life really is.
I remember in grade school there was a wood paddle up front. I never saw it get used but we were all sure as shit afraid of that thing. No one would ever step out of line with a teacher.
Now none of em give a make the beast with two backs.
Yep. I have known violent abuse which was unacceptable and also now cant stand that there are no consequences for little shits, so I guess the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Quote from: ducpainter on December 05, 2016, 05:00:44 PM
The kids that do nothing wrong and get beaten by a parent/guardian/adult for no reason are fubared.
The kids that do everything wrong because they believe there are no consequences are fubared...because there are no consequences.
We are basically...fubared.
Yep.
It all has to do with humans confusing the removal of natural consequence with caring.
Tomorrow will be an interesting day.
All i can say is you did the best you could. Unfortunately it is now out of your hands.
The icing on yesterday's cake.... I found out we had a couple of UPS packages stolen from our doorstep.
make the beast with two backs humans.
That sucks Joel. Seems to be all the rage right now. News here has a daily showing of someone stealing boxes from front doors.
Sucks about your trials at work too.
Quote from: Grampa on December 06, 2016, 06:01:49 AM
The icing on yesterday's cake.... I found out we had a couple of UPS packages stolen from our doorstep.
make the beast with two backs humans.
Want me to mail you a box of cat poop?
Ditto, have plenty. [laugh]
Pretty sure no reply means a yes. :P
It would seem I have his address in an old PM.... ;D [evil]
Quote from: Grampa on December 05, 2016, 05:20:53 PM
It all has to do with humans confusing the removal of natural consequence with caring.
Tomorrow will be an interesting day.
Good Luck, Joel. That's all I've got. :(
The police have officially been added into the mix. Odds are they will do nothing more than file my statement, but the kids probation officers will be notified, and that's where things will either stay the same or get bad for the two boys.
Quote from: Satellite smithy on December 06, 2016, 08:19:00 AM
Pretty sure no reply means a yes. :P
You do know I have way more poo ammo at my disposal.
Quote from: Grampa on December 06, 2016, 11:38:12 AM
You do know I have way more poo ammo at my disposal.
Doubt you have more than me! I have four dogs, a cat and five goats at my disposal!
Goat shit. Heavy calibre. How about kangaroo poo?
Quote from: Grampa on December 06, 2016, 11:38:12 AM
You do know I have way more poo ammo at my disposal.
Yeah, but not my new address.
Also, you can't really mail me Bakersfield.
Quote from: NAKID on December 06, 2016, 11:46:55 AM
Doubt you have more than me! I have four dogs, a cat and five goats at my disposal!
5 dogs, 6 cats, a lizard, and one teenage boy.
What you really need is a camera. Someone should send you one of those!
Doorbell camera?
Quote from: Grampa on December 06, 2016, 01:41:37 PM
5 dogs, 6 cats, a lizard, and one teenage boy.
Well if we're counting people.... [laugh]
But think, of the four dogs, one is an English Mastiff, the other is a Great Pyrenees!
Quote from: Satellite smithy on December 06, 2016, 02:56:12 PM
Doorbell camera?
Lots of houses here have small security cameras on the front porch or door area. TV news plays the video of the thief and they are caught!
I have a doorbell camera. More to see when the packages get delivered so I know to go get them. The video of them being stolen is pretty much useless. Maybe a 1% chance they catch the people.
Quote from: Grampa on December 05, 2016, 03:12:55 PM
As they walk past me, one of the kids reaches out and pinches my right nipple, and says nothing as he does it. The kid just so happens to be the same kid I was having a conversation with, when the kid#1 grabbed me last week. I was on my way out of the classroom to call parents about detention times, so I planned to deal with kid #2 when I got back. I returned to the classroom later than expected, and had drop off a few things and hurry back out go get the schools lunches ready (we’re a small campus, so we all wear many hats), thinking that I’ll deal with kid #2 at the very end of the day. As I walk out past the students, kid #2 then grabs my ass.
I'd twist that kid up so quick his arm would about break. Last time they would grab you. Aren't you allowed to defend yourself?
Yes and no....... That's a real tricky grey area.
Mate, that's an absolute shocker of a situation.
I'm really glad the youth of your nation have blokes like you to offer them help and care.
Sadly, help and care only work on certain types. Others need the sort of care and 'correction' koko64 described.
Incidentally, my students call me 'Mr K' too. ðŸ'ðŸ»ðŸ'ðŸ»
The kids all love to play like they are the biggest mofos to walk the planet. (girls included) They like to pretend rush the male staff, and brag about pressing everybody. I love to tell them that I haven't been officially trained in pro-ACT defense (the standard defensive staff training), so if one of the kids happens to "accidentally" end up in a coma, I'll have a convenient excuse for not following proper takedown protocol. ;D
The world is going to hell in a hand basket.
I have no real advice besides what's been stated.
After reading the transpiring of events, both of these kids seem like bad cookies. Very unfortunate. They both know better than to do what they're doing, and yet they persist in acting like a couple of perverts/predators.
Kid one is obviously un restrained at home, if he's allowed to ride his bike while on suspension instead of getting his butt beat by one of the rents.
He has no repect for anyone else and sooner or later he will graduate to rape & or murder.
I agree with Dave. Some kids will 'get it' and eventually change, some will get worse and end up somewhere really bad after screwing others up too.
Very sad.
Hope you're going okay with it all Grampa.
A little insight into the world some of these kids live (by no choice of their own.... up to a point)
http://www.turnto23.com/news/local-news/kcso-investigating-pursuit-crash-in-east-bakersfield
http://www.kerngoldenempire.com/news/homicide-news/disturbing-new-details-in-the-killing-of-katrina-rivera-and-her-baby/618196551
This guy was a known POS... the woman he killed is the aunt of one of our students. He and she were over at the students home a day before all this went down. The guy claims to be acting on Satan's orders. After he killed her, he claims Satan gave him the razor blade that he used to cut out the child, then drove around with the dead child on his lap.
I had no idea this had happened over the weekend, but the student spent the day telling everybody all about his brush with fame. The kids home lives are soooooo beyond what most of us would consider to be normal, that something this make the beast with two backsed up is almost common place.
All of our students agree that the guy is way beyond make the beast with two backsed up, and what he did will earn him a special place in lock-up, but what's truly sad is.... the majority of these kids see the fame associated with just knowing the killer, worth its weight in gold.
:-\ :-\ :-\