http://www.wsj.com/articles/sears-sells-craftsman-brand-to-stanley-black-decker-1483623215
There goes the last reason I had to go into their stores.
Most of the Craftsman tools, especially basic hand tools (such as wrenches and screwdrivers) are not worth spending money.
(Not because of COO, but because of the quality)
You are not missing too much.
Stanley is purchasing . .
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on January 05, 2017, 10:59:44 AM
Most of the Craftsman tools, especially basic hand tools (such as wrenches and screwdrivers) are not worth spending money.
(Not because of COO, but because of the quality)
You are not missing too much.
So, what brand of tools do you recommend?
Quote from: Speeddog on January 05, 2017, 11:45:37 AM
So, what brand of tools do you recommend?
I really have a mix of really old Craftsman, Stanley, Proto, Hazet, a Japanese brand whos name I cannot remember now, USAG and it have been the Crafstman ratchets the ones that have failed . . . Or the 10mm closed wrenches that have loosed their grip
QuoteSo, what brand of tools do you recommend?
That, greatly depends on ...
1)the budget
2)what kind of vehicle you work on
3)whether you are tool fetish or not
4)how much “perfectionist†you are
5)whether you care about tool’s COO
So, I can’t say, “I would recommend brand XXXâ€.
I just wanted to point out that, there’s not much point trying to stick to Craftsman brand anymore,
unless you live close by Sears store and you expect to do a lot of warranty exchange.
What I find (somewhat) ironic is, if you are working on relatively newer vehicle only, you really don’t need Snap On (or MAC or MATCO). But, if you are working on older, neglected vehicle with tons of frozen screws, half butchered bolt heads and nuts, you actually need high end tools.
How about tools with the same warranty and similar price, even a little more $?
And the same availability. The snap-on truck doesn't come to my house (yet).
NAPA Carlyle line, for example, are a better option than Craftsman.
(At least, hand wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers, that kind of stuff.)
wrenches
http://www.carlyletools.com/products/wrenches
sockets
http://www.carlyletools.com/products/sockets
Ratchets
http://www.carlyletools.com/products/ratchets
Some of them (especially long pattern wrenches) are direct copy of Snap On design.
They are a bit more $$ than Craftsman (& Husky, Kobalt, HF)
But a lot less than truck brand.
They are made in Taiwan.
I have some of them, and have no issues.
The good things are,
You can walk into the NAPA store and buy them 7days a week.
(Snap On tool truck comes only once a week.)
If you need warranty exchange, you just walk into the store and walk out with the brand new tools,7 days a week.
(Snap on warranty exchange, you will have to wait until next week.)
Sometimes, it happens that in Sunday afternoon, in the middle of the project, you realize that you need the odd size socket, some of the tools broken or missing, ...
So, Harbor Freight?
;D
I bought my Snap-on stuff when it was relatively affordable. It was still top end, but I never could get used to the feel of a Crapsman wrench or ratchet after using them.
Harbor freight is fine for things that hardly ever get used.
Mostly I buy used snap-on stuff at yard sales.
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on January 05, 2017, 02:59:07 PM
NAPA Carlyle line, for example, are a better option than Craftsman.
(At least, hand wrenches, screwdrivers, pliers, that kind of stuff.)
I bought a set of metric impact sockets of theirs a couple of months ago, nice quality stuff. I wouldn't hesitate to buy more. [thumbsup]
Otherwise I have primarily Craftsman tools in my roller. Always good enough for me. The stinker is that local news said yesterday that the mall Sears store will close this spring, which sucks since it was my first go-to for a tool. :P
Quote from: Speeddog on January 05, 2017, 11:45:37 AM
So, what brand of tools do you recommend?
MY 2cents: If you wrench often (hobby or for $$$) drop the coin and buy good tools. I have mostly Snap-on and a very old set of craftsman wrenches.
I bought a bargain set of impact sockets once and had one break. what I saved upfront I gave back in ER for stitches co-pay.
Snap-On does indeed make nice stuff.
But, I find it impossible in nearly every case to justify the astronomic price.
Really, $33 vs. $7-8 for a 12mm 12-point combination wrench?
https://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=&item_ID=633160&group_ID=674993&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
https://www.napaonline.com/p/CHQCWFP112M
http://www.sears.com/craftsman-12mm-wrench-12-pt-combination/p-00942916000P?intcmp=crft-pdp-buy-cta
The only Snap-On tools I have are oddball, specific-use things. All of which I've bought used.
Unless I was a professional wrench there's no way in hell I could justify the cost of their stuff.
I was a professional wrench for about 10 years. You do indeed have to be making money with them. As far as hand tools go like the wrenches and sockets I find craftsman to be just fine but I always use the Snap on or Mac ratchets now. I pretty much have everything I need at this point (Except a garage) Although I do need a new 1/4" Torx bit set because the one I have is Chinesium and, well...you know.
So Napa eh? Napa is always around. I think I have a couple of larger wrenches around from Napa.
Snap on is the Mary Kay for men.
Looks like most of the members posting on this thread have already enough tools, and have been wrenching for quite some time.
(On the other hand, I don’t see any posts made by the members who are just about to start buying tools.)
Those who are contributing to the thread already know this,I suppose, but in case some beginners reading this thread, I will say this.
Don’t buy a big set (like 300 pieces set) from the retail store (that includes Sears(Craftsman), Home Depot (Husky), Lowes (Kobalt), etc.)
You are not getting a good deal. You have to remember, those sets are designed by marketing people, to make you believe you are getting a good deal. Those marketing people don’t wrench on cars and motorcycles. They don’t know what it’s like to get bloody knuckles when the wrench slips or the ratchet brakes off. Or, what tools you actually use and what tools you never use.
Rather than trying to get a good deal, buy quality tools one by one, as needed.
When you buy $30 wrench, it still is expensive, but you are only spending $30 for now. You may spend another $30 in next month, or two months later.
Buying used, quality tool is also a good idea.
There are certain jobs you will do over and over again, such as oil change, brake bleeding, etc.
Tools for those tasks, I would recommend buying the best one you can afford.
I actually broke the rule you just stated last year. I bought one of the big Craftsman sets but it was only because they were closing that Sears and it was hugely marked down.
My tools are a wide mix of stuff otherwise, only a few Snap On that to be honest, I don't even know where they came from [laugh]
QuoteI actually broke the rule you just stated last year
Nothing is wrong here. You probably know what you are getting, know the cost : value (of the tools) ratio, then decided to buy.
They can be useful for back up, beater set, etc.
I said it in case some newbies actually thinking they can get a truly useful tool set, saving a big $$$ by going that way.
About the wrenches.
Basically, “you get what you pay for†rule applies here.
It doesn’t mean you have to buy Snap-On. But, there’s a reason why some people prefer SO or other high end wrenches.
Take a look at this pic.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/628/31351689094_ccefa531f2_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PLrATG)DSC01738 (https://flic.kr/p/PLrATG)
(From top to bottom,
Craftsman raised panel (USA made, old one)
Gearwrench 1st. gen. (Taiwan)
Kobalt (Discontinued, Taiwan)
NAPA Carlyle (Taiwan)
Craftsman Professional (made by S.K. for Sears, USA, discontinued)
Snap-On double boxed end XOM1214 (USA)
Snap-On OEXLM12B (USA)
They are all 12 mm. (XOM1214 is 12mm - 14mm double box end, and NAPA Carlyle is 7/16 since I don’t have their metric wrenches).
Notice Snap On combination is almost 40% longer than Craftsman RP ?
When things gets harder, this makes HUGE difference. (In other words, if you don’t confront stubborn / half damaged fastener, you really don’t need it.)
There’s a reason Craftsman can not make their wrenchs that long.
The material isn’t strong enough to take the force (crated by extra leverage).
The jaw and box end don’t give enough grip, the wrench will slip off at the worst moment. (= bloody knuckle).
Yes, with Craftsman,you can use double wrench technique, or you can use mallet on the wrench, but if you can do the job with just one wrench, that’s a lot better.
By the way, some wrenches come in short, standard, long pattern.
Snap-On’s “standard†is equivalent to other brand’s “longâ€, SO’s “long†would be “super long†in other brand’s standard.
You can find those super long pattern wrenches from MAC, Matco, Williams, Cornwell, Armstrong, also.
(Craftsman Professional wrenches were really, really good value. They were essentially S.K. long pattern wrenches with Craftsman brand’s availability and warranty, with very affordable price tag. Sadly, they are no longer available. If you find them at garage sale or local CL at reasonable price, get them.
Those Taiwan made Kobalt wrenches were nicer than current version. To be honest, they were better wrenches than Craftsman Raised Panel, but they were not something you would develop mental attachment.
Ratcheting wrench from Gearwrench, they are only useful in certain situations. So, ... most of the time, they are kinda useless.)
Then, look at the boxed end, from the side.
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/1/732/31382804893_bec5cb0d09_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PPc5wZ)DSC01744 (https://flic.kr/p/PPc5wZ)
From left to right,
Snap On XOM1214, Snap On OEXLM12B, Carlyle, Craftsman, Gearwrench
(I didn’t photographed Kobalt and Craftsman Professional because they are no longer available.)
You can see Gearwrenches gigantic head. Don’t waste your money on the set of these wrenches. Buy a sockets and ratchet, instead.
For the nowbies, I actually recommend double boxed end wrenches rather than combination wrenches, for many reasons.
You will need fewer wrenches, they are more stable when applying force (note, the handle is “offsetâ€, NOT “angled†like combination wrenches).
And the last photo.
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/490/32154892116_b2936bd6cf_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QZqeaE)DSC01745 (https://flic.kr/p/QZqeaE)
This is a close up photo of Snap-On and Craftsman.
This is why Snap-On wrenches and socket can loosen the stubborn fastener that Craftsman will end up rounding off.
Flank drive is one thing.
But, more importantly, Craftsman wrenches and sockets have this massive chamfering.
Look at the photo closely.
This is 70 - 80 % of the reason they fail on low profile bolt and nuts, partially rounded bolt head, etc.
SImply, they don’t give the same level of grip of high end tools.
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on January 08, 2017, 01:56:02 PM
There’s a reason Craftsman can not make their wrenchs that long.
The material isn’t strong enough to take the force (crated by extra leverage).
The jaw and box end don’t give enough grip, the wrench will slip off at the worst moment. (= bloody knuckle)
How long is that Snap-On double boxed end XOM1214 (USA)?
I'd like to compare it with my 12/14 double box Craftsman.
XOM series is standard handle, deep (60°) offset. XOM1214’s overall length is 210 mm.
XBM series is 10° offset, and 230mm.
The long pattern wrenches are
XDHFM1214 (0° offset) 298mm
XDHM1214 (15° offset) 290mm
All this talk of stocking a shop, not one mention of alcohol.
Priorities, people.
Well, I brew beer in my shop, but we were talking about tools.... [laugh]
Quote from: Speedbag on January 09, 2017, 08:07:26 AM
Well, I brew beer in my shop, but we were talking about tools.... [laugh]
It is a tool. How else do you clean a bloody knuckle but with alcohol? What if the repair fiss badly, a part gets lost, etc? Its time for jack daniels to repair them feelings of frustration.
Quote from: Satellite smithy on January 09, 2017, 08:10:39 AM
It is a tool. How else do you clean a bloody knuckle but with alcohol? What if the repair fiss badly, a part gets lost, etc? Its time for jack daniels to repair them feelings of frustration.
Further proof you got soft. Blood isn't to be cleaned, a significant amount should be coating the vehicle to imbue it with speed.
You guys are doing it wrong. Get your hands out of the situation by using extensions and / or gloves.
Back to the original topic, an interesting tidbit about Stanley...
They already own Bostitch, Irwin (the makers of the original Vice Grips), Lenox, and Mac.
Irwin is just the company that bought the vise-grip company.
http://livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/machines_12.html
IIRC Stanley also owns Black & Decker, Dewalt and Porter Cable.
Quote from: Satellite smithy on January 10, 2017, 07:12:07 PM
Irwin is just the company that bought the vise-grip company.
http://livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/machines_12.html
IIRC Stanley also owns Black & Decker, Dewalt and Porter Cable.
Yep. Sooooo, that makes Irwin... the
makers of "the original Vice Grips". ;)
Technically, Stanley doesn't own Black & Decker, the two merged. But yeah, DeWalt and Porter Cable were both part of B&D. Any way you cut it though, that's a hell of a lot of big names in the tool world all under one umbrella.
Quote from: Rameses on January 10, 2017, 09:44:25 PM
Yep. Sooooo, that makes Irwin... the makers of "the original Vice Grips". ;)
Vise Grips, not Vice Grips. ;)
I keep my vises close, and my vices closer.
As it should be. ;D
So, what is wrong with coming to grips with your vices?
People whine that you ain't sharing the scotch.
Quote from: Satellite smithy on January 11, 2017, 02:05:12 PM
People whine that you ain't sharing the scotch.
It's all yours. [thumbsup]
Howie and I dented a bottle last dimby.
I'm hoping for a repeat.
Maybe without a drought and that thunder this year.
Quote from: Satellite smithy on January 11, 2017, 02:33:56 PM
Howie and I dented a bottle last dimby.
I'm hoping for a repeat.
Maybe without a drought and that thunder this year.
I'm in [shot]
Quote from: howie on January 11, 2017, 01:43:57 PM
So, what is wrong with coming to grips with your vices?
Wrong? But Momma, that's where the fun is.
To get this at least pointed back toward on-topic...
Quote from: S21FOLGORE on January 08, 2017, 01:56:02 PM
(snip)
And the last photo.
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/1/490/32154892116_b2936bd6cf_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QZqeaE)DSC01745 (https://flic.kr/p/QZqeaE)
This is a close up photo of Snap-On and Craftsman.
This is why Snap-On wrenches and socket can loosen the stubborn fastener that Craftsman will end up rounding off.
Flank drive is one thing.
But, more importantly, Craftsman wrenches and sockets have this massive chamfering.
Look at the photo closely.
This is 70 - 80 % of the reason they fail on low profile bolt and nuts, partially rounded bolt head, etc.
SImply, they don’t give the same level of grip of high end tools.
At least once with a low profile nut, I've dealt with exactly that, and in a rage ground off most of the chamfering on a cheap box wrench. It wasn't pretty, but it worked and then went into the box that gets turned into coat hooks like this:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/456/32125874652_9267bb724b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QWRvhy)20140326_190210 (https://flic.kr/p/QWRvhy) by triangleforge (https://www.flickr.com/photos/7138702@N03/), on Flickr
If you're trying to loosen a low profile nut or bolt with a 12-point wrench, you're doing it wrong.
That's 6-point socket territory.
That's nice that the Snap-On wrenches have so little chamfer.
But I'm not paying 4x the price just for that.
A minute on the belt sander and I can have however much chamfer I want.
You contend that the Craftsman double-box isn't strong enough to be made the same length as the Snap-On.
I've got a 12-14 Craftsman double-box that's 230mm long, and I've ground a good bit off of the diameter of the head on the 12mm end.
Several years of service, and it's not broken.
I have to say that I've never broken a craftsman wrench. I was gifted one of those big tool sets in the early 80's and that set comprises the backbone of my auto tools. Ive had a ratchet or three break the internals. But they gave out the new gear sets for free, so no big deal.
Craftsman is a little clunky, but Ive never been concerened about any of them breaking.
Quote from: ducpainter on January 05, 2017, 03:11:17 PM
I bought my Snap-on stuff when it was relatively affordable. It was still top end, but I never could get used to the feel of a Crapsman wrench or ratchet after using them.
Raised my kids on Craftsman stuff; mostly stuff I bought brand new from 1976~1983/84. Augmented over the years with later Craftsman stuff, but mostly old stuff.
My middle son became a professional wrench, seven years with Ford, then opened his own shop seven years ago, has tens of thousands of $$$ in tools now, the majority of which are Snap-on. He'll tell you that Snap-on is a total rip-off for the home mechanic. I'll tell you that other than mis-use; I've never broken a Craftsman tool in 40 years of wrenching with them. I'll also tell you that my Dad's Craftsman tools that I inherited in 2003 are still gong strong today in my garage, and they are now 65 years old.
I'll also say that I just replaced my 35-year-old made in the U.S.A Wilton bench vise (which I purchased brand new) with a 62-year-old Craftsman machinist's vise because it is of so much higher quality, and because I mourn the passing of the U.S.-made Craftsman (branded) tools even more than I do the sale of the trademark by Sears.
Oh, and I gave the Wilton vise to my son, who will put it to good, professional use, in his garage. [beer]
Quote from: somegirl on January 11, 2017, 09:24:22 AM
Vise Grips, not Vice Grips. ;)
I'm just trying to show off my worldly knowledge...
Quote from: ungeheuer on April 07, 2014, 05:26:27 PM
Since that auction listing is not in the United States of America, they didn't spell "vice" wrong at all. You just forgot to translate my English into yours ;D
Here >> http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/vice (http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/vice)
Or I screwed up. Take your pick. ;D