Unfortunately, my Monster isnt the S model, with the adjustable front forks...
The front teles on my Monster is very "stiff" - on normal roads it hardly works, as on my other bikes, where the front forks "plays" all the time, with tiny movements - up & down.
Only on large road ondulations, my Monster forks works - and it irritates me that this "stiffness" makes longer travels uncomfortable!
I hope there exsists some improvements, i.e. progressive front springs, or a certain sort of hydraulic oil, to sort this problem.
Or, maybe the solution is a purchase of some used "S" tele legs?
On my 2006 Monster 1000cc, (bought used, but in super condition) - the former owner seemingly had adjusted the rear wheel so the motorcycle has a stance on the road, front wheel low, and rear wheel high.
( The distance from tire to underside of fender is considerable, in my mind - and the motorcycle will never, in future carry a passenger)
So I plan to reduce this distance somewhat, following the recommendations from my Owners Handbook.
But what do you think?
Is there certain pitfalls, and how much should i reduce this distance?
Should I, in the same operation touch the preload of the yellow spring?
Set preload as suggested. If it's still a progressive spring it's not going to help much with the handling and preload should NOT be used as a ride height adjuster.
Try to adjust one end first, go for a few rides and then decide if that is the right thing for you. Make rather large adjustments so you are sure to really feel what's happening. Fine tune after that.
Overhauled, repaired and well adjusted forks are wonderful to ride with. Have them looked at by an EXPERT, not a semi-expert, first - maybe it's an adjustment issue....
First, merge your threads. Both are a suspension problem, therefore related.
Before anything return all suspension settings to base, as in the owner's manual. That includes the tie rod on the rear suspension, which is for rear height adjustment and the fork height in the tripples.. Then work from there. Problem is you don't know what the previous owner did. Unfortunately I don't have the specs for your bike.
I merged these threads, and made up a title.
Reply to STOPINTIME:
You write: "Maybe its an adjustment issue"
I cannot figure out what you mean with this, since my front teles are of the non-adjustment type.
Please clarify.
S2R1000 never came with non-adjustable front forks, to my knowledge.
I suspect the original adjustable forks were damaged and replaced, or removed for more profit in a prior sale.
If you can post a couple pictures of the top and bottom of the forks, and a side view of the complete bike, we can help more.
Posting pictures:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=109.0
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=72635.0
Quote from: lasse28 on July 30, 2019, 07:02:37 AM
Reply to STOPINTIME:
You write: "Maybe its an adjustment issue"
I cannot figure out what you mean with this, since my front teles are of the non-adjustment type.
Please clarify.
I didn't even think about a non-adjustable fork. It was, as noted, never an option. The 'stance' and the fork suggest that the/a previous owner made strange choices, maybe even dangerous choices.
Quote from: Speeddog on July 30, 2019, 07:37:04 AM
If you can post a couple pictures of the top and bottom of the forks, and a side view of the complete bike, we can help more.
Posting pictures:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=109.0
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=72635.0
+1 for taking the photos and posting here.
The first thing you want to do is to check if your bike has stock forks or not.
If you have stock suspension components, set everything back to stock spec as Howie suggested.
Start from there.
Reply to my "seemingly non standard" Ducati 1000m from 2005/6
I tried to insert pictures, and a scan from my owners manual, but was too dumb to make it work…
The frame number of my bike is: zdmm404aa5b070729
Front page of my owners manual says: MONSTER 1000/1000S
The bike came with a full service book!
Inside the manual it says: The S model has adjustable rebound & compression damping adjusters, (through a hex nut in the bottom of the tele leg, + adjustment nuts on top of tele leg)
Mine, beeing a M model has nothing of this.
So, I am NOT having a nonstandard Monster, just the "cheap" version of the same bike.
996cc, 2 plugs per cylinder, 2 desmo-valves per cylinder, aircooling and petrol injection, hope this will clarify?
Ok - I can see that now, in the parts catalog.
The M1000 doesn't have an adjuster on top, but the catalog shows adjusters (one/two?) from the bottom up - usually compression damping adjusters. What they are, if they work on yours and what might have been done to them are open questions.....
Very aggravating, none of my documentation nor online sources give any detailed information.
I suspect it's got the same forks as the S2R800 of that year.
As delivered, those are quite soft, with no compression damping to speak of.
Someone may have been inside them and changed components.
Possibly the forks are binding due to misalignment from damage or improper assembly.
If the handlebars seem to point to one side when the bike is travelling straight, they may be twisted.
First method:
Remove both front brake calipers.
Do not squeeze the front brake lever.
Loosen the axle clamp bolts on the opposite side from the axle nut.
Vigorously compress and release the front suspension as much as possible.
You can brace the front wheel against a solid object to allow application of more force.
You can roll the bike into said solid object as well.
Essentially, get the forks to stroke at least halfway.
Use a helper if you can.
Tighten the axle clamp bolts, beware that they do not need to be *very* tight.
Reassemble brakes.
Report back on results and we can go further if necessary.
Thank you for help!
The motorcycle is running absolutely straight, with handlebars in 90 degrees position, so no traffic accidents.
The "binding" may de a better explanation, so to morrow I will loosen the axle, and work the suspension hard!
As reported, the bike has a full (51.000 Kilometers) service record, and no leaks at all from the tele legs, who present themselves silky matte, without any scratches.
By the way, could the oil inside the legs be of the wrong "weight" - or filled too much?
Oil level, and weight, does affect damping.
How much do you weigh?
Quote from: lasse28 on July 31, 2019, 10:44:17 AM
~~~SNIP~~~
By the way, could the oil inside the legs be of the wrong "weight" - or filled too much?
They could easily be overfilled if they've been serviced.
Some of the Monster forks of that era had cartridges that were very very uncooperative about being emptied during service.
If they are incompletely drained, and then refilled by specified volume, the oil level will be much too high.
Ha, ha, - very funny…
What I ment was the specific weight of the fork oil, i.e. how "thick" such oil should be?
20 W? or 10 W?
Fork oil is usually 5w/ 7.5w/ 10 w.
Oil level matters as much as what weight oil.
I asked your weight because if the previous owner was much larger than you they might have had the forks modified oil weight, oil level, or stiffer springs to suit their weight
Nobody is joking here.
120 kilogram, unfortunately…
(How high should the normal oil level be, if oil surface measured by ruler from top?)
Now I tried to "un-bound" the tele legs, by doing the procedures recommended.
I guess the legs already was pretty parallel, since the operation didnt remedy the problem much.
OK, by wishfull thinking I found that the front now became a bit more compliant…
But, I wonder if a pair of progressive front springs would solve the problem??
In the procedure, I also measured the oil level height, and found the same 120mm level in both legs - I wonder, if this is the correct level?
The oil, reddish, clean, and very thin.
Then I went to the rear suspension, and changed the height here (without touching the yellow spring) reducing it by approx 30 mm (measured on top of tyre to fender underside) from the exsisting reference mesurement I took before the operation.
Heavy rain prohibited a test drive for the moment...
Your adjustment to the rear ride height will slow down the turning. Don't make any other adjustments until you ride it to be certain you like the way the bike behaves.
There is no spec for oil height. Ducati only specifies a volume, and as Speeddog stated,if the oil was refreshed, and the cartridges were not completely drained, the level would be too high. If it were my bike, I'd get a tool like this one... https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0121
and remove oil by 5 or 10mm at a time until I liked the result. You can put a zip tie around a fork leg and go brake hard, in a straight line, to verify the fork is not bottoming. I don't think the springs are your issue.
At 120 kilo, the original springs will not work well for you, at all.
You will need front springs ~1.0-1.05 kg/mm.
Rear spring ~ 12 kg/mm, such as Ohlins 01093-44/120
Best to consult with a local motorcycle suspension specialist who knows Ducati.
They will have local road knowledge, of which I have none.
What Speeddog says is fact, but we don't know what's in your bike. If they're stock springs there's no way the forks wouldn't be 'compliant' based on your weight. They'd be so soft the bike would be like a pogo stick.
You say you have all service records for the bike. What parts were changed in the suspension by the previous owner? If the springs were not changed, I'd still be investigating why the forks seem to be 'bound'.
I only said, that the bike came with a full service book by Ducati Denmark.
The only things that I can read there, is change of cambelts, and valve adjustments, + "service" (oil, filters, and so on)
And to correct, a possible misunderstanding, the teles are in fact compliant enough, when talking of big movements over "sleeping Policement" and such.
What I miss, is all the tiny up-and-down movements, or micro movements when driving on ordinary roads.
Here, my other bikes front teles "play" constantly up & down, while the Monster teles are almost stationary!
Until the front wheel meets large holes or big "bumps"...
The motorcycle tracks beautifully, and corners very good, maybe on grounds of the initially stiff springs.
(It might have a small tendency NOT to fall into corners, but need steering input to go positively into a bend)
Too much compression damping can do that. Did you check if you have the compression adjuster screws and if they work?
Dirty and/or too heavy oil can also do that.
Hitting sharp bumps with a fork like yours will transfer the compression movements to the tire. The tire has no rebound damping and will make the wheel airbourne.
Unfortunately, not beeing an "S" model, my Monster 1000 doesnt have those adjusting screws.
So Ireally dont know what to do?
I heard, that "progressive" front springs might be the answer...
Most of us get rid of the progressive springs. They tend to go from too soft to too hard, plus the spring rate is too low for your weight. Until you know what springs is inside your forks and you know what valve mods might have been done you are pissing up a rope!
Quote from: lasse28 on August 01, 2019, 10:07:53 PM
Unfortunately, not beeing an "S" model, my Monster 1000 doesnt have those adjusting screws.
So Ireally dont know what to do?
I heard, that "progressive" front springs might be the answer...
The parts catalog says you do.
Again, my official owners manual, & my service book, says that the Ducati Monster 1000, came as a "standard model" with standard springing, and also as a socalled "S" model, having the much more sophisticated front tele-legs with bottom screws and top screws, to alter rebound and compression!!
If I could manage to attach files, I would, as a proof, attach a scan from those books...
Your M1000 parts catalog shows, lists and mentions an adjuster (from the bottom up)
My owners handbook also describes said adjuster, in the bottom of each teleleg, with nice drawings
BUT SAME HANDBOOK, DESCRIBES THE TWO 1000 MODELS WITH SAME MOTOR, NAMELY MINE STANDARD, MISSING THE ADJUSTMENT POSSIBILITIES, & THE OTHER 1000 MODEL, CALLED "S"!
This "S" model has all the suspension mods..
I am sorry, the parts catalog cannot help me - after all my model remains the "simple" Ducati Monster 1000...
Ok. You need a suspension specialist. It will be money well spent to have your suspension examined and then modified to your weight. [thumbsup] At 120kg you are well outside of the stock suspension parameters, I am at 90kg so you definitely are. Look for a suspension expert and start saving money for the work.
Okay, now I understand what's going on in this discussion and what OP actually has.
The confusion comes from the fact that many of us are located in US, and the particular model you purchased had never been sold here.
That's why when you keep saying your bike's front forks have no external adjuster whatsoever, people get confused, thinking you might have non standard forks, or you just couldn't find the adjuster, etc.
So, look at the photo below.
That's the photo of M400 (400cc Monster, specifically sold for Japanese market).
(http://techjapan.ru/var/cars/258185.jpg)
You can see the fork top cap. There's no adjuster.
The OP's bike has (essentially) the same, 43mm non-adjustable forks, could be Showa, could be Marzocchi.
The cartridge in these forks are non serviceable.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wjjjFCoC67A/Wj4C0FEybhI/AAAAAAAABd0/dJz4j6pCgv4tfrqB2YSXpHJkpPWy13_7gCLcBGAs/s1600/017sr.jpg)
Any kind of work / mod to these forks will be labor intensive, and you will see very small improvement.
In other words, don't try to modify these forks. You are fighting the battle you've already lost.
You have a set of budget forks Ducati decided to use on smaller engine and / or cheaper grade models,
which have awful low speed damping characteristics.
(Note: Low speed here does NOT mean the vehicle's speed. When we are talking about low/high speed damping, that means how fast the suspension travels.)
Another thing that's causing confusion is that you keep saying your forks are "stiff","heard "progressive springs will solve the problem" (which will not.).
Your forks are NOT stiff. (The rider being 120kg with stock springs, there's no way these forks can be stiff to you.)
Your forks have WRONG low speed compression damping, that makes the forks very reluctant to move when going over the bumps, etc.
So, the answer to your (OP's) original question.
There's no easy fix.
A set of progressive springs will not fix your problem.
Changing to iighter weight fork oil (5w is the lightest, and actual viscosity depends on the brand of oil) will make very little change.
BTW, look at the cartridge photo again. A tiny hole on the right (which is the bottom side of the fork), that's where the fork oil go in and come out.
You can imagine when fork oil change is done, there's no way the old oil can be completely drained.
To solve your problem, you have to change the compression damping characteristics.
In order to do so, you need a set of forks that has the adjustable feature.
If they are non adjustable Showas you can change the cartridge and shims. This is even possible on the Marzocchis, but very expensive since you need to replace all the internals, assuming kits are still available. If your forks are Showa they will have the logo on the inside, facing the wheel and the cap will have a 17mm hex.
Quote from: koko64 on August 03, 2019, 06:19:48 AM
Ok. You need a suspension specialist. It will be money well spent to have your suspension examined and then modified to your weight. [thumbsup] At 120kg you are well outside of the stock suspension parameters, I am at 90kg so you definitely are. Look for a suspension expert and start saving money for the work.
Couldn't agree more. Might even be cost effective in the long run. Again, you need to know what spring is in there now and nothing is broken internally. Local is important too. Mine have softer high speed vales, compensated with stiffer shims. Difference between California's roads and New York goat paths.
Many, many thanks to FOLGORE HERO!
Now, the confusion seems to be completely clarified…
I was somewhat embarrassed, because people thougt I couldnt find "my" adjusting screws, - becuse they never were there.
Since the motorcycle is running very well, I am now looking for a set of used front tele legs, WITH adjusters - in my mind the best and most economical way to remedy the situation.
About my weight: You think I am a fat person, but I am not!
I am 194 cm. tall - very broadshouldered, with a heavy skeleton (so says my doctor) - I never had any thoughts, concerning my weight, on my numerous motorcycles during times.
Is it really true, that the Ducati brand are extremely weight sensitive?
Until now, I have been happily driving my Monster, without other problems than the "unresponsive" front.
The rear suspension (which IS adjustable on my model) has been set up now to my weight, and with more rebound control, works fine.
In 4 weeks time, the bike will be expertly remapped by a Ducati specialist, I will keep you posted!
The monster models, especially the non adjustable fork bikes are set up for extremely light riders. I am around 72kg and the front forks on my 620 would bottom out & cause vibrations when braking. I know the adjustable 1000 forks can get expensive even used so it may be worth searching other fork options. Most other options will require some extra parts but may come out cheaper. Either way the new forks may still need to be resprung & revalved to work properly. I did a set of 998 forks on my bike that needed new/modified tripples. Others have used gsxr forks that fit the tripples but need the brake calipers changed.
I never assumed you are fat nor would I assume anyone was over the internet. If you buy Monster 1000 adjustables they will still need springs.
OBS - Now I found a pair of "as new" SHOWA adjustable front tele legs - top 50 mm - bottom 54mm
They will fit Ducati models: ST2 - ST4 - ST45 and 50-54 forks.
Can some of you very knowledgeable folks tell me if they also will fit my 2005/2006 Monster 1000?
Quote from: lasse28 on August 04, 2019, 07:11:36 AM
OBS - Now I found a pair of "as new" SHOWA adjustable front tele legs - top 50 mm - bottom 54mm
They will fit Ducati models: ST2 - ST4 - ST45 and 50-54 forks.
Can some of you very knowledgeable folks tell me if they also will fit my 2005/2006 Monster 1000?
At 50/54, they will fit your triple clamps.
Best to get a measurement of the length of the outer legs, ST forks are typically longer than Monster forks.
If you have handlebars they might interfere. If they do you will either need to get risers for the handlebars or go with clip-ons.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 04, 2019, 08:26:58 AM
At 50/54, they will fit your triple clamps.
Best to get a measurement of the length of the outer legs, ST forks are typically longer than Monster forks.
My ST4s fork is the same length as Monster forks [thumbsup]
The adjustable forks are not good just because they are adjustable. If they are correct for you, you MIGHT get something out of the adjustments, but if they are not.... adjustability won't help much/nothing at all.
Quote from: stopintime on August 04, 2019, 03:57:39 PM
My ST4s fork is the same length as Monster forks [thumbsup]
The adjustable forks are not good just because they are adjustable. If they are correct for you, you MIGHT get something out of the adjustments, but if they are not.... adjustability won't help much/nothing at all.
This ^
Following your warnings, I decided NOT to buy the adjustable telelegs.
But I wonder, why SHOWA produce two types of legs, when the most expensive of them seems to be useless...
You mean, you are wondering why SHOWA makes adjustable and non-adjustable forks?
Because you think (based on the posts above), adjustable feature is useless?
You really need to find a local suspension specialist and learn the basics from him.
All adjustability on the suspension system is useless if they are not correctly set up for your weight, riding style, the road you ride.
That’s what they (Speeddog and Stopintime) meant.
In other word, don’t expect the adjustable forks you just purchased from eBay to magically transform your bike.
You WILL need to do some work on them.
And, that’s the main reason to get a set of adjustable forks.
The most important difference between the forks on your bike now, and the adjustable ones are that they are serviceable.
They can be re-valved, to change the damping characteristics.
Yours, cannot be disassembled.
If you want to modify your cartridge, you will have to cut it up and re-weld after work, which, no one wants to do.
All Showa forks, adjustable or not, can be disassembled, re-sprung, and re-valved. Once that's done there is little need for the adjustable ones, unless you ride the track, and minor tweaks are required for different tracks.
Marzocchi forks are pretty much not modifiable.
If the forks are serviceable, I would say, install a set of linear (straight rate) springs (w/ correct spring rate)
and get them re-valved.
Either way, you will need to find a local guy who can set up your suspension.
For example,
Quote from: lasse28 on August 04, 2019, 01:27:37 AM
<SNIP>
The rear suspension (which IS adjustable on my model) has been set up now to my weight, and with more rebound control, works fine.
<SNIP>
You said your rear shock is "set up to your weight", does that mean (at very least) you installed the new spring?
If, for example, you just increased the rebound damping and preload, it is just a band aid fix.
That is a temporary solution to a problem that does not address or resolve the underlying cause of the problem.
In fact, heavy rider + soft rear shock spring + too much rebound damping + not enough rear ride height (not enough swing arm droop angle) can make things worse.
If it's too difficult to post a picture, take a short video clip and upload on youtube, then post it here.
You need to shoot the video from the side, not to high (so that it can show how balanced your front / rear ends are, how much rear end is squatting with you on board, etc.)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2IyRPZxhax_Pxwg6xSfZUl9HG9M6gLLE_Rdc9C5jACfQCJtFhw7-RYhKePfbZYDsqUe8lQvLAgU-k3pzlZ4WPlcqFGeyDDASxUJl9RrgZzv66h3s3Grtd-X_h-EQyyCXKZmPNpwQgA=w2400)
Nice picture!
My bike has almost the same stance as yours - but unfortunately, the art of inserting pictures hasnt been learned.
Remember, I have double rearforks.
The rear spring is changed to a stiffer one, and rebound set to 12 clicks - ride height, with me onboard, I would consider as "normal" now.
As already mentioned, I will have the bike "reflashed" in week 37 - and at the same time, have the suspension looked at by a Ducati expert (Promotor Ducati Tech center)
I guess that at lest I will have installed another cartridge and spring.
I will report here.
Too long time has gone, without me responding - sorry!
But now, a lot of things has happened.
The bike has spent some time with a renowned Ducati experts workshop, where the suspension has been attended to, and, importantly, the behaviour of the motor has been changed to, a lot better
The front standard non adjustable SHOWA has been pulled apart, and a lot of sticking "dirt" has been removed, the oil has been changed to 5w, and to the correct level.
This done has improved the compliance and damping a lot, and even if the workshop told me, that new highteck cartridges could be inserted, it would be expensive, and would not be satisfactry enough to my kind of driving, compared to the would be expenses.
To "normal" road driving, I am most happy now, and because I not plan to do extreme driving, I can easily live with the suspension as it is now.
Back to the motor:
It had a very slow idle, sometimes shutting down when very hot, and generally the motor seemed to be 10 to 15% under its factory power, not letting the bike pass 170 Kmh.
At the same time, the exhausts smelled very much of unburned gasolene?
The master mechanic detected low compression, and a messy computer, tampered with by the former owner.
He then went over the fuel system, the computer, and used quite some time to resetting it all to the correct values, - then he went to the valves, which he found ill adjusted, with too great distances to the seats to obtain full compression!
By adjusting the valves, he found some play in the valeguides, actually, as he said, "a lot of play" probably too much…
Anyway, because the bill already had run quite high, I said I would wait to get new valve guides installed, - as it would cost me in the region of 2000 US Dollars.
After I got the motorcycle back, it was as transformed, with a LOT more power, and a steady idle at 1100 revs + the bad smell has gone!
Now I ask all you experts if you know if I can run the bike with those worn valve guides (1000M 2 valves per cylinder) - next season, for approx. 5000 kilomters, before repair?
Also, HOW those guides are lubricated - because many people says that the guides in reality ar un-lubricated, because of the rubber manchets on the top of the guides?
It used to be that the guides were lubricated by the lead in the fuel. I don't know if the chemists ever came up with a suitable eco-friendly replacement.
Ducati's are somewhat known for poor valve guide material. Chances are you can run the bike for 5000K, but if your price didn't include seat work, and perhaps new valves, you may need them also after running it further.
I don't remember the range of years, but my bike (04) was one. Faulty guides. Most of those bikes were probably fixed under either warranty or good will because it happened at such low mileage. My old 750, which has probably about 11K miles on it still has the original guides, new seals though.
Removing lead from gasoline was really an issue with valve seats. The fix was Stellite or other similarly hard valve seat issues.