0600 this morning my sweet monster had her first ever breakdown.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OTQYGUh2Kf-zhKxXcIqiFeQK-563s56GlV2cMtEXAJ5ObgiLMeDBwTR2rXOvunIeprgA0_XAbAUMrI53KN0zW2i7NRuFcnUTVAE_tYGHr3otI4lzlZzIneFjtaPO1ryslwEXxsDEMvM=w2400)
I had just got on the 8 west, merged into the fast lane, and opened it up to around [the speed limit] [leo]. Engine cut out as I got into cruising mode. Pulled clutch and attempted rolling restart. Cranked but did not fire. Made emergency hand gestures to truck next to me and he kindly escorted me across all 5 lanes to the shoulder (THX dude!). Tried several restarts on the side of the road and it cranked but wouldn't start. Couldn't hear anything to troubleshoot on the side of the highway, so I Uber'd home and got my truck. Went back to the bike to arrange a tow home (on the way to work), and of course she fired up. I'm thinking fueling issue, but I'll hold my speculation until I can troubleshoot. For now this is a placeholder thread until I get a multi-meter on some parts and come up with some intelligent observations / questions!
Ok, so I got home and gave it the basic checks. When I turn the key, I hear a relay click, and the fuel pump runs but sounds very weak. The bike starts and runs for 5 seconds or so then sputters out.
I found a few other threads regarding troubleshooting the pump, relay, and the flange wiring. I'll read through them and see if I can come up with anything. Wish me luck!
When was the last fuel filter change?
Quote from: ducpainter on September 20, 2019, 05:16:00 PM
When was the last fuel filter change?
Good place to start. While in there look for contamination.
I actually replaced the filter recently, maybe 500miles ago. I'm curious though. I replaced a plastic filter with a metal one and the plastic filter had a screw mount to the pump housing. The screw also secured 2 black wires with loop terminals. I screwed the wires back into place, and left the filter floating. Would those wires cause the pump to not run if their connection was broken? I'll definitely be taking the pump and filter out for a bench test, so I'll post a pic of the connection when I get it open.
Those wires are grounds. The one to the filter was to prevent a static charge. I don't think it would affect the pump ground.
I'd have to see it.
Quote from: ducpainter on September 21, 2019, 06:17:31 AM
Those wires are grounds. The one to the filter was to prevent a static charge. I don't think it would affect the pump ground.
I'd have to see it.
You got it right. Check the hoses when you are in there. If they need replacement you need hose that meets the 30R10 spec. I think California Cycleworks has per cut kits.
NAPA also sells a 1 foot length of 30R10, as does Amazon... https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B001R5XSGU?pf_rd_p=183f5289-9dc0-416f-942e-e8f213ef368b&pf_rd_r=9CAWYX11BMV4TVRABF0Q
Well, it looks like I'm not getting lucky with a fuse or relay. The relay clicks every time, and once I drained and raised the tank, the pump doesn't prime anymore. So I'm thinking either there is a loose wire on the pump side, or I've got the "bad connection buried in epoxy" problem. I need to clean my garage before I can finish draining my tank and pull the pump assembly. I'll post you guys some pics once I get it apart and figure out which it is.
I'm looking at the wiring kit from CA cycleworks (wish they were still in San Diego).
http://ca-cycleworks.com/fwires.html
And this forum post where speeddog kindly provided a ducati part number
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=68789.75
Ducati part number 51020032A
Are there differences between these 2 parts that anyone is aware of? I'm definitely inclined to spend some money on a new part rather than dig, re-solder, re-epoxy.
The relay clicking does not always mean it works. Lift tank, remove the electrical connector to the fuel pump assembly, turn key on. There should be power at the brown/whit wire if the relay is working. No power? Remove relay and install a jumper wire between terminal 30 and 87 If the pump now runs the relay is bad. An alternative method to check the relay, apply 12 V, positive to 85 and negative to 86. Connect a multi-meter to contacts 30 and 87 to check for continuity. You should see no or very little resistance. You are probably right about needing the kit, but it would be a shame to go through the work and find out otherwise.
I'd order the kit anyway.
If you don't need it now, you will eventually.
Quote from: ducpainter on September 30, 2019, 01:20:31 PM
I'd order the kit anyway.
If you don't need it now, you will eventually.
Good point!
Thanks Howie,
I did verify 12v at the connector, during the pump-prime cycle when you turn the key to run (5 seconds or so). I'll double check with the resistance measurement to be sure. I'm still hoping I just have a loose wire inside the tank, since lifting the tank made the pump stop running altogether, and jiggling the wiring didn't seem to have any effect. hopefully I can get my garage cleaned up tonight and finish troubleshooting this week. I kind of made a disaster area working on my wife's bike, and I have tools, parts, and chemicals everywhere!
Ducpainter,
In regards to the kit: do you think the new kit is better quality than the OEM part, which seems prone to failure. Or might I be better off doing a solder and epoxy job, where I could be certain of the quality of my soldering? If it helps, I am an expert solder-er, but an amateur epoxy-ist.
There were some early failures with the ca-cycleworks kits, and Chris pulled them immediately until he came up with a solution.
Me...I can solder, and JB weld is fuel proof if you mix it right, and follow the 'structions for cleaning up the application site. That might be tough to do given the constraints of the pieces.
Your call.
All right, the gas fumes have subsided in my garage enough to start breaking down the pump assembly, and I have a couple questions.
I disconnected the wires from the fuel pump and the fuel level sender. Then I pried up the push on rings that hold the big plastic shroud down.
In this photo:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YOCcjmKGlg-PEZYqGYuEPmpfj1zLd84gyLxRSmLfSR1d7w0Sk5rEQCnIf2YCegLySRiquT9gQkpDqK7PR46Lb7e9rCSSLZd4_qpQVW-b0tJ_HvvyneqBFOiQvXqaWjz4CvJ5t8TGE58=w2400)
The part in the circle is in the way of lifting off the plastic housing. What is it? Am I in for any surprises when I lift it off?
It is also being held in by 2 push on rings (Red Arrow), but they are stuck on real good, and I think I'm going to break the plastic when I pry under them, so I think I will need to cut them off.
So, diagnosis complete. I think I figured out that the thing in the red circle above is a flow regulator, since it sits in the path of fuel returning to the tank. When I got it all apart the epoxy on the fuel side of my wiring harness was a combination of brittle and gooey. I pried some of it out with a screwdriver, and 3 of the 4 wires fell out of their posts. I think I'll buy a new part and repair this one as a spare. Pump seems to run fine, so at least I'm not looking at too big of a job. Hopefully the new part can hold up for 11 years like the first one did.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dRp2aS0bqN6WpqBwbYZPi6mQxu7H9rsfIeAzwQDXD2aepEBjNLM66QNyVpINyfPVm3H8qHgEvoCC4bmS4WfAW3Y8gTxUJRGnzaJrL1eblW5aBJ7-SsPFMAx_W_MWPtEpH4hA8JvGQkY=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nzwNrmNkRiDE_var--HAJfJPvXfDuAJtvQrTOMf1ImOeB1T5H6RbxOHQfnf635-e4f7ScllosHatPaXctX1ZkqiAfrYDg2xRe6GXuD3j9zVMijMKoVOyz_CNYzCBg_5MPw8OtgKl45g=w2400)
Thanks again for all the advice!
[thumbsup]
Parts arrived with free candy, and a nice hardware Kit! I'll be riding this weekend! Thanks California Cycleworks.
The whole kit
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qI-B0dDPbN0NiaAiu1Fowu_LX0Urvrd-Zlqt5mxDUAxEIKV2Hp5c-Jc-84pinHiJpV8NTQI1q6S9IQISLZVxoJvoATsY5BSo6hbwnf4YHQHartOeZq-A2Hvk53_oMvc1H4Icu21O-ek=w2400)
The air side
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7oWFKbnlC9gNNC_TKOQNWbvD1bpewc_r5HrFPj-NNKhB0lJ3Q0I10MrHtAMsExcBFpzP5jtKbq-rtOYL7SXqKHan1UVnPdDXDKzHqAW34rbz09W-FgRfckuAz15crLaUwZjgkY0926g=w2400)
The fuel side
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k75RtiVS2lMb80OSnY8Tg-I1xgozSoSm-lUejUWjZdl-DZgocjis6rawt0SHXCWfX810KvlJv8QeVqsH8bF5eYaADwUDKTDbfODfLMW7hdxVI2FQkAGuBZ7t50DJvnMS0jZJnC4v7Ek=w2400)
The part is definitely different from the factory part. The epoxy? on the fuel side is clear and gummy. The wires are also heavier gauge than stock. Hopefully this one holds up at least as long as the original. [thumbsup] I can't tell for sure, but it looks like there is no soldier point. I think the wires go through the bung? and are drowned in epoxy. If so, this is a far better design. I'm thinking if the epoxy ever fails I will have a fuel leak, but I wont have a high speed shutoff situation (which was scary AF).
Got the new part installed, and everything works again! Pics of the install below. The only notable thing was the push on fasteners didn't fit well in a few of the spots where the plastic housing is close to the posts on the flange. Between the new ones and the ones I didn't break, there were enough to get everything back together. So far no leaks, and she is running strong. I'll do a test ride tomorrow and report back!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/qaEObRVsGuq9YU2b3YVbyJ5nmCPKNw6NUsHslyK-b1r90-ILi9JWXJAFSDVWDmlWecijNF6xyhAD8J5fxCzVxKsnkO6vtag1YSTIXURJ47qEhq6lWuD6cPdb4CKxkp10n7W0HVjzl4w=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3qA2GEf85308L7RhPoqaIrUhwSCFMeDXzRRCQTLUgsJFyj4NySlLkDv8_b_BCZGbjUso0toaXcUmV-xtycSu9an1bhUVhWAjSzhO_QG658k4yQnQkkyXh093R7PpjT4g5dIIZPu-dic=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k5bhjexdTUPaDZDb_3YNv247HXGUyohGs7s_mUBROgP3YEM4oEqAzfuhzk_n5bPkwfwjcDcaATgQRbyUkfD5B6rsXxXtFsVu8Zfkx_d2Xfj64_hoEalAKoORrHbX_pMi9vX_XyyihsA=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9DDOgTLoKz75RzaDTBnBMkaMGjz2ltuGeC_wazegZpe4uwAeFfxH2W2SiJR39L9yJnaqB7E_sq_09nq0jD6GbQKe_BNb-3aytI6pwsZR7TzclYd8KtI804u5p2cQWKGwUKDjOgYhjCk=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/oWClTng4rbmGvTcHBGA6UqRBrEPpcdyu0j-pgTXCwO-295RWs9YiWiuJ2zhSd5YQgzbaoO1xTBcNJod60vjBPmWdVytWl5JJWzMi0RLaG0vWkSU8d5sKdxxWqWXXd28dGeHdqGtZ1ek=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fFUkeoYYUf41YON6IheBUo6XkxcMdPzGMl8PHekudTTPgQU0OXgUfSrhAz1KnI7YLVy-rwJ-2IIl6aA5VQ-jo8lw23FR9GG_rVQ2MM3pRC9j9-ePQnhDuoMf82cTKeItUeOqvugcTlY=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/iGmqGhYUa1VzNGgf7dWqAxd2gH9zp_-K3qpRWdAHR3lVPbDtJOMBPVmX7qcjgF1FpBOZ_tBB5Dp2abPCaIayTx_FYVJoullrjJOY7Uypk822TjK8BR9X_FI3W4HIxsKOaGzvFQoESnM=w2400)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nQeXatlswD_masCm_SkA4DVtsO0bHsLX-mx5kIyvuxRhGjhVy4OoZoFbd22F0XUs7RUw2--vyIj0JV7oZcKU-5bg_3NZXOt-5j6rdQGfWaYxufoK18pRE4Wbf-2NCEoswKEuWZpmTc8=w2400)
So after sitting overnight, I've got fuel coming out at the flange o-ring. The new wiring bung looks to be holding fuel, so that is a plus. Time to pump the gas out of the tank and get some measurements of the flange o-ring.
1. My factory bolts were stripping on the hex heads, so I replaced them with m6 16 stainless flange bolts, and torqued to 10nm. Could this be caused by overtightening the bolts that hold the flange on, I think the shop manual called for 10nm but it felt like a bit much as I was assembling.
(From the manual : Rotational tank flange retaining screw M6x1 10nm) <- not exactly clear but almost all the m6's in the tourque spec pages are 10nm
2. Should I just replace the o-ring, and if so o-ring or x-ring?
It looks like I can order a fairly inexpensive replacement on McMaster, but I'm not sure about the best shape, hardness, etc.
https://www.mcmaster.com/o-rings/=eebc9cffc856496a9720ceee1bdf8a38k2t4r1we
https://www.mcmaster.com/o-rings/=eebc9cffc856496a9720ceee1bdf8a38k2t4u1fp
Any advice here is much appreciated!
Try the fancy x ring from CCW as it takes up a bit of slack with extra sealing if you are unsure of how sound the seal is between components.
Quote from: koko64 on November 10, 2019, 07:25:44 AM
Try the fancy x ring from CCW as it takes up a bit of slack with extra sealing if you are unsure of how sound the seal is between components.
[thumbsup]
I already had a pretty big order sitting in my McMaster cart so I went ahead and ordered this:
https://www.mcmaster.com/6540k287
The measurements are pretty damn close, so I think it might work out. The mating surface on the tank feels like it bulges up a little where the nuts are embedded into the plastic, and the factory o-ring is flattened out pretty good, so I think an x-ring should do the trick. I'll let you guys know next Friday.
The good news is I wasted money so you wouldn't have too! The x-ring I ordered has the correct profile dimensions, but is too big in circumference to fit the flange. Money on the way to CCW for a correct xring, and some new quick connect orings. I should have listened to you guys, lesson learned. [drink]
;D [thumbsup]