Hi again, here to solve another issues with my duc :)
Bike has an open airbox, cat removed, open silmoto italia cans, DP map, 2005 with 35k miles.
Two issues as subject suggests:
1. Idle
Ever since I got this bike it's always been idling at 1000rpm. I want to set it to 1250. What I've tried so far:
- messing around with air bleed screws but that only seem to lower rpm and I can't increase it
- set the targed idle in ECU using TuneECU android app - it didn't do anything whether I reset TPS or not; I can confirm the app works as I successfully uploaded new fuel map (DP) and disabled immobiliser
In TuneECU I can set the idle in relation to temperature which is perfect as I can set it to 1500 when below 50 degrees, but agian, it doesn't really do anything.
I might have an air leak somewhere as rpm drop slowly after I rev it (needle hangs around 2-3k for a second), rpms are fluctuating at idle. Valves are a tad loose and will be adjusted soon, this year.
AFAIK there's no stepper motor on s2r800. The only option I see is to adjust throttle stop screw, but It's quite hard to reach, also I'm not sure what tool I need as security torx doesn't seem to fit very well and it's similar shape IIRC. Also almighty google says this screw shouldn't be touched and it's factory set, IIRC it closes butterfly valve in throttle body, right? So if it doesn't close all the way once 'adjusted', yes it will change the idle, but might affect performance.
There must a way to set the idle though!! [bang]
2. Drive chain
It seems that the chain 'jumps' occasionally when I drive away (when slipping clutch in 1st). It only happens occasionally and I mean it, maybe 1 in 20 times, but it doesn't sound good. It's like metal to metal grinding, hard to tell where it's coming from. My friend saw it once as I was riding away at traffic lights and it looked like the chain was jumping.
Few facts:
- I've had a problem with a clutch before (chain issue might not be clutch related but I want to provide as much info as I can) - retaining nut became loose, damper springs broke) - I ended up replacing the whole clutch bit by bit (expensive), only thing I didn't replace is the clutch pack - all discs are within spec, not warped or burned, clutch pack has correct height; clutch does not slip but drags a little bit and neutral is hard to find when engine hot (still it's million times better than before); new clutch basket is off another monster and doesn't have damper springs or dual mass drive gear, retaining nut was torqued to spec and I used loctite - it's still torqued as I've recently checked it
- clutch pushrod is straight, lubed with moly, orings in good shape and I have spare new ones, angle between rod and lever is 90 degrees, slave cylinder replaced as mine was leaking (OEM, nearly new)
- chain never jumped prior to replacing the clutch; it first happened when I replaced inner clutch basket (my old one was notched and was causing drag), with this it was happening almost every time unless I applied very little throttle (so bike was almost stalling) - I ended up buying a brand new one and it improved a lot
- chain is perfectly clean and lubed all the time (I'm using scottoiler), slack is 30mm as per manual
- front sprocket is a tad loose - I think it's supposed to have a little play?
- I am yet to properly inspect both sprocekts teeth and chain wear (I've a right tool for it somewhere) but let's assume it's all in good working order for now
- it never happens in other gears or when I'm riding, it only happens when I ride away from standstill
What can possibly cause that?
/e: you know what writing this thread made me realise I have and had so many problems with this bike, it's unbeliveable. If I stop posting one day it's probably because I've had enough and set the thing on fire
As ducpainter said in my other unrelated thread:
Quote from: ducpainter on October 31, 2019, 04:33:39 AM
Your ECU is capable, but without a stepper motor there's no connection between the ECU and the throttle bodies, other than the injectors.
This is a very good point and makes me thing the only way to set the idle is to give it more air. I've to say I have not tried adjusting air bleed screws AFTER installing new fuel map with target idle set to 1250. I will try it but don't have any hopes, my current map (DP) has a target idle of 1500 when cold, 1250 when warm, and it doesn't change at all.
As far as your chain goes, start with the basics:
Tension properly set
No frozen links
Not excessively worn
Sprocket teeth not worn
If you play with the throttle stop screw you will be messing with a base setting and (assuming TPS is correct) messing up the TPS setting. First you want to check all base settings following the method in the repair manual. You might want to consider getting that bike to a good shop.
What I do on a 620 with no stepper motor/air valve control. FWIW.
Open the air screw 1/8 at a time on a hot motor until you get the rpm you want. If the idle hangs back off (turn in 1/8 - 1/4). I use a manometer to check idle synch as some TBs want slightly different air screw settings for best, strongest, most even idle. Note any effect on synch thru the rpm range as that may be another service item to deal with. Badly adjusted valves impact idle and low rpm running and adjusting them is also part of setting the baseline.
If its all over the place and uncoperative then give the bike to one of the Speeddog's of the world for a thorough service. They will adjust the valves, set synch, set tps and set idle speed which all can interact.
Some thoughts on how to get a stubborn set of throttle bodies to idle above 1000 rpm.
You can try adjusting out the air bleed screws until the throttle just starts to hang then turn them in 1/8 - 1/4 turn to avoid the rpm hanging after you blip the throttle.
See where idle sits when hot and adjust for that, not when cold, or the rpm will get too high when properly warmed up.
Turn in the air bleeds 1/8 at a time once hot to get the idle back down to 1100-1200ish rpm if it is too high..
Remember, turning the air screws out raises the rpm and I find I cant go out too far until the throttle hangs, maybe 11/2 - 2 turns before it starts to hang.
Speeddog will have a better process I'm sure (Im a carb guy that also has to deal with efi).
Dont be too proud to work some extra shifts to pay someone to tune it to perfection, it could be more time/cost effective.
Thank you howie I'm gonna check it all this weekend!
Quote from: howie on October 31, 2019, 06:06:05 AMYou might want to consider getting that bike to a good shop.
I'd love to take it to a good shop, but there aren't any in my area and I'm struggling with money these days. I'm getting my dash sorted (fried in the rain) and will take it for re-shimming valves, can't afford anything more at the moment :(
Quote from: koko64 on October 31, 2019, 06:24:38 AM
What I do on a 620 with no stepper motor/air valve control. FWIW. [...]
Thank you koko64 that's exactly what I'm gonna do (again)! However I think this isn't gonna change anything because the screws are out quite a lot already, iirc 1,5 and 2,5 turns out and any more than that doesn't do anything, it idles at around 1000rpm with this setting and stalls otherwise. Currently I don't have a dashboard so would be difficult to do it, I think I'll just wait till I get it back from electrician first. And if that doesn't help, I'll try again after doing valves.
Quote from: koko64 on October 31, 2019, 06:24:38 AMDont be too proud to work some extra shifts to pay someone to tune it to perfection, it could be more time/cost effective.
I couldn't agree more, I just can't afford to spend any more money on the bike for now so I'll do what I can to fix things myself.
Do you have a manometer/synch gauges?
Quote from: koko64 on October 31, 2019, 08:10:16 AM
Do you have a manometer/synch gauges?
I don't (yet) but will get one at some point. I've never balanced throttle bodies in my life but I know how to do it and feel confident. I can do stuff as long as I understand what I'm doing or/and follow the instructions.
From what I remember:
- bike needs to be warmed up to the operating temperature
- connect manometer to each throttle body
- close air bypass screws
- run engine
- turn screw on the TB (under airbox) to balance vacuum
- adjust air bypass screw to set correct idle
This should be easy for me to do. I've tried setting the idle without balancing TB - I assumed they were balanced 1000 miles ago (at the time) by the dealer. I had no success adjusting the idle then.
I will definitely try it again, without balancing TB for now. I can always go back to stock setting if it's bad, just want to see if I can increase the idle.
About the TB balancing. I'll either buy a manometer, or (more likely) make one myself. There are some DIY tutorials. It'd cost me next to nothing, I can use scottoiler spigot to connect to TB (I've got one already), some clear tubing and engine oil. I'll do it after the valves.
/e: for a record, my previous OEM (?) fuel map had target idle set to 1000. Perhaps that was the reason why I couldn't go above it when opening the air bypass screws. My new DP map has 1500/1250 (depending on the temperature) so I hope adjusting air bypass screws will work this time.
You may find one tb air screw is set to slow keeping the overall idle rpm down. So theoretically, one may need 1 turn out and the other 2 turns for example to both be at the highest idle speed. Look for each manometer tube to be at its highest position and and not just equal to each other.
Quote from: koko64 on October 31, 2019, 09:33:11 AM
You may find one tb air screw is set to slow keeping the overall idle rpm down. So theoretically, one may need 1 turn out and the other 2 turns for example to both be at the highest idle speed. Look for each manometer tube to be at its highest position and and not just equal to each other.
That's a very good avice, note taken. I can't wait to get my dash back now!
[thumbsup]
Right, I checked my chain earlier today. It looks perfectly fine. It's not stretched, it's tightened properly, sprockets are not worn. I didn't check for tight spots yet as I'd need to put it on a stand and didn't have time for it.
Anyway, here's the video that shows what happens. I took it in July so while ago. It started happening when i changed clutch inner hub, every time i took off. I went back to old one and it stopped. Now i have recently changed this hub again to brand new one and it's happening again just not that bad, chain "jumps" and clunks usually once and not often, only when i take off. It sounds like a loud clunk in the video but really it's more like a grinding noise I think.
https://youtu.be/NgARvv8xjys
Have you cleaned your TBs with Air Intake Cleaner or Carb Cleaner?
If not, do it, engine will be hard to start, but, will expel all or most of whatever gunk was gunked in the intake; then, with engine running, give it a little gas, keep spraying into each cylinder so that tb blades and any rest of gunk gets cleaned.
After that, long thin Phillips or flat screwdriver get to the adjust throttle stop screw in the middle of both intakes holding the throttle cam shut turning NO more than 1/4 to 1/2 turn at a time . . . start engine again, idle should be around 1500, now since engine IS warm, adjust to 1100 . . . if not, then, more adjusting will be necessary
Id be taking that clutch cover off for a good look in there. Something may have come loose. Check the oil for debris too.
Good idea with cleaning, it's a 14 years old bike so I'll give it a go I guess.
Koko64 pretty sure everything is torqued to spec, oil was changed 3000 miles ago; anyway, since I cleaned and adjusted the chain it doesn't happen anymore. I tried to replicate this issue but I couldn't. It's strange though cos my chain was only a tad loose, maybe 50mm slack and it's 30mm now. It was a bit dirty but lubed. I'll keep an eye on it and if it happens again, I'll check the clutch.
At 50mm you can hear the chain slap the swingarm chain guide under power pulses. I have seen very loose chains jump and strip sprocket teeth.
Hopefully that was it, although I'm not convinced that this is what happens in the video I posted! Well, I'll keep an eye on it, if it happens again it's not the chain.
A little update:
My bike passed MOT so I booked it in for valves/tb sync. They'll set the idle for me. I was gonna do tb sync myself, but they won't charge me much more for that when doing valves and I cba to do it as I don't have a garage and it's bloody freezing!
Regarding the chain issue, it's still happening. Not as often but it still does. Once I get the bike back form mechanic, I'll pull the clutch and inspect.
Just throwing this out there as I don’t think it was mentioned earlier:
Do you have a loose section of chain? If so, and tension was set at a tight section of chain, when the loose section is near the front sprocket, that could cause your issue. Chains do not wear evenly.
If you have a rear wheel stand, put the bike on that and roll the chain around checking tension throughout one or more revolutions. If no stand, just roll the bike. It may help to mark a point on the chain as the starting point.
Aight, time for an update. I picked my bike up back from the garage on Saturday (after 5 weeks!).
Idle is all sorted. After adjusting valves (needed 5 new shims) it idles at 1500 when cold, and 1250 when warm. These are the figures I've set in the fuel map. It's strange that ECU didn't adjust the rpm before the service, must have been due to bad clearances/tb out of sync. One thing I noticed, it drops to 1250 before dash stops displaying "LOW" (below 50 degrees), map is set to drop when 50 degrees is reached. I'm thinking maybe the ECU doesn't take oil temperature but something different?
Chain seems to be sorted too, although I need to ride it more to confirm. Clutch was the issue I think, in short I took out 1 steel plate and extra washers (I've had 2 on each spring). Not sure if it makes sense but I think the problem is gone.
Thanks for all your help guys!
If things like valve clearance. misfire, synch etc. are far enough off the computer cannot properly compensate. Good to hear your bike is running properly.
Quote from: howie on February 03, 2020, 05:02:17 AM
If things like valve clearance. misfire, synch etc. are far enough off the computer cannot properly compensate. Good to hear your bike is running properly.
It makes sense I guess. Thanks :)
I found this in service manual:
Quote from: Ducati S2R 800 service manualNormal operation
When the engine is fully warm, the control unit calculates injection time and advance, by comparing the stored map values, in accordance with the RPM and throttle position. The calculated quantity of fuel is fed through injectors in one single sequential delivery to the two cylinders.
Starting
When the ignition switch is turned to ON, the control unit feeds the fuel pump for a few moments to put fuel feed hydraulic circuit under pressure. It receives the throttle position and engine temperature signals. When the engine is started, the ECU receives the engine RPM and timing signals that allow it to proceed with injection and ignition. To facilitate start-up, the basic mixture is made richer in accordance with the engine temperature. During starting, the ignition advance is fixed (0°) until the engine starts. When the engine starts, the control unit takes over the advance control according to the values stored in the mapping and makes necessary corrections according to the air and engine temperatures.
It says engine temperature, is there another sensor other than oil temperetaure sensor?
Also there's one thing that doesn't make sense to me. Manual states the correct idle is 1250 +/- 50. According to the above, ECU controls idle based on values stored in the map. Why on earth does OEM and even DP map have 1000rpm no matter what the temperature is, if correct idle is 1250ish?
There is an ambient temp (and atmospheric pressure) sensor as well as oil temp. Can't answer about the 1250RPM thing. There are mistakes in the manual. Not unique to Ducati.
Thank you howie, I guess temperature displayed on dash and one in ECU are read from different sensors then. Fair enough about mistakes in the manual. My curiosity is satisfied ;)
I did some googling, here's post from another forum which confirms that:
QuoteThe atmospheric temperature sensor voltage level tells the computer how much to modify the fuel map injector durations for a given air temperature.
Many Ducatis have two engine temp sensors.
Air-coolers have one in the oil screen plug, that goes to the dash.
The sensor in the valve cover is for the ECU.
Desmoquattro Monster engines have two, located in the hot coolant elbows, one for the dash and one for the ECU.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 03, 2020, 09:32:24 AM
Many Ducatis have two engine temp sensors.
Air-coolers have one in the oil screen plug, that goes to the dash.
The sensor in the valve cover is for the ECU.
Desmoquattro Monster engines have two, located in the hot coolant elbows, one for the dash and one for the ECU.
Thank you Speeddog, that makes sense. Explains why idle drops to 1250 way before dash displays 50+. I might change it in the map again so it warms up a little longer, although I don't have any issues and it's the coldest month of the year here, so not sure if it's worth the hassle.
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 04, 2020, 01:13:49 AM
Thank you Speeddog, that makes sense. Explains why idle drops to 1250 way before dash displays 50+. I might change it in the map again so it warms up a little longer, although I don't have any issues and it's the coldest month of the year here, so not sure if it's worth the hassle.
If it ain't broke...
keep fixing it until it is. :P
I guess you're right ;D [laugh]