Hi folks :) This time not specifically related to my duck.
I'm in UK and the weather sucks right now. It's cold and wet. My duck is daily commuter. My daily commute is 3 miles each way. I'm sure you know what that means :) Bike is stored outside in a motorcycle tent overnight, and in unheated garage during day at work. It doesn't get wet but it's cold.
Problem is, I don't really ride much during winter. Even if I take it for a long ride, it's hard to get the temperature to above water boiling point, being an air cooled engine in cold weather. I can get it up to 80-90°C (176-194°F), but to get it up to above 100°C (212°F) and maintain it long enough for all the water fo evaporate, I'd literally have to get off the bike and let it idle for God knows how long. Therefore I have quite a lot of milky stuff on the sight glass, engine covers and everywhere, you know.
Is there any oil addictive or anything that can help? Any old school tricks? ;D
Don't judge me [roll] I do ride a lot (subjective I know), just not in the winter. I did 5000 miles in few months last summer, and have planned some trips for this year that will be at least 3000 miles. And there will be a lot more. I just don't ride for pleasure in the winter!
The usual tactic is a cover for the oil cooler.
Can you elaborate please?
I've not had personal experience with a cover, so can't say for sure what to use.
I'd try aluminum foil, wrapping the cooler front and rear.
There's folks here who live where it's actually cold who may have some FHE.
For my 750 I made a cover from heavy black vinyl and an elastic band so I could easily remove it on a warm winter day.
The 1000 had an oil cooler guard. Made life easy, just slip something between the guard and the cooler.
I wrapped mine in alu foil, but didn't notice much difference - at least not very much.
Try to remove the oil filler cap after a 'long' ride. Most of the moisture will escape.
i went to the used store and purchased an old soft leather briefcase for a couple of bucks
went to the sewing store and purchased snaps
took just a few minutes to get er done
snap on .. snap off
literally cut to fit. wrap all way around. it was just too easy to do and it does what you need.
.... maybe mine didn't cover well enough :-\
Where I am despite 40's C in summer it can dip below 0 c in winter so I also have an oil cooler cover. An old school careful morning warm up helps too. The other thing that helped was to delete the breather hose to the air box (plug the hole) and run a small breather filter off the breather catch tank/box.
In all honesty, 3 miles is too short a trip.
Quote from: koko64 on February 11, 2020, 12:34:01 PM
~~~SNIP~~~
In all honesty, 3 miles is too short a trip.
Yep.
[popcorn]!
I had this problem too on a well used 03 800; oil site glass would always get milky; was using Moutol green 15W 50 full synthetic (may not be the best for a monster) may have been a number of things; cooler riding as per your experience.
Tried removed the oil filler cap after riding when under cover; it helped but moisture always cam back in colder weather. and hate to admit this but; once had the oil cap off; and went out for a ride … and quickly discovered oil sprays out the filler hole; over pant legs and side of bike ...lol. So always check that the foll cap is in place.
Another thought was the gas I was buying had an additive and ethanol that attracted water.
What type of gas do you use? Is it contaminated with moisture? On later Ducs I always used 91 octane, that didn't have the additives, and is more "pure" gas seemed to help; try that and report back!
Hope that helps cheers [Dolph]
Whooa so many answers and good suggestions, thank you all! :)
I know 3 miles is a very short trip :( It's either bike or 1 hour walk up hill - no can do. It's my home-work commute, I tend to ride a bit more 2-3 times a week when I visit friends, do shopping etc. Still not long enough but whan can I do, it is what it is.
Oil cooler cover - I assume the idea is to prevent it from cooling? I'll definitely do it and take it for a nice ride on the weekend! Removing oil filler cap makes sense too I guess, I'll try that as well but need to remember to put it back before ride. I just know myself too good ;D One time I fogot to put the oil pressure sensor back after working on a clutch then fired the engine. Messy. Another time I didn't put the oil drain plug back in during oil change, a good amount of new engine oil spilled in friends garage. Ooops, that was really messy [laugh]
If the above doesn't help I'll try koko's idea with the hose as well!
I usually fill up at Shell either standard unleaded or v-power, both can contain up to 5% ethanol in accordance with current UK specification requirements. Good point about ethanol drawing moisture, I read a lot about expanding plastic tanks problem but it doesn't seem to happen here in UK. I'm not sure if this would affect engine oil much though?
Once again thank you all for your answers! [thumbsup]
/e: I'll order a neoprene sheet. It's heat, water and oil resistant, and it traps heat - seems to be good for the job I think. I'll cut out a thick piece of it and wrap the cooler.
Letting water vapor vent through a breather stops it from running back down into the crankcase. The crankcase breather valve has little drain holes to allow oil vapor to return, but water will drain back down too. Got to let the steam escape before it cools.
Koko thank you for explanation I now understand better. I am going to read more about crankcase breather to fully understand it's purpose!
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=74944.msg1377651#msg1377651
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=73844.0
Thank you koko this is a very interesting subject, thank you so much for bringing it up! I learnt a new thing now, exciting :)
This is surely gonna help with the condensation built up in the engine which is fantastic! Not sure about performance (although I'm not after it), some say oil separator box increases crankcase volume and removing it will decrease power produced, others say opening the system will no longer force hot/oily air into intake and therfore suck in better quality cold air and make more power. I don't really know what to think about it, both theories make sanse [bang]
My question is, would it be better to install a filter directly on the crankcase and remove the oil catcher box completely (more space under the seat, yay!), or install it on the hose that goes back to the airbox? Should I be worried about oil dripping down on rear tyre? Or is it just gonna be a case of checking the filter every now and then and washing it/replacing? Perhaps I should attach filter to the hose that goes from the crankcase and install it under seat, above the crankcase opening, so gravity will take care of any oil? Am I overthinking it? [laugh]
/e: I've ordered K&N crankcase vent filter. I've decided I'll install it at the end of hose that connects to crankcase. I'll place it on the right side of the bike, where the side plastic cover is - I removed both anyway as I don't like them, and have scottoiler on left side already. This way it will be above crankcase opening and should trap oil, and I'll have easy acces to it should I clean/inspect the filter. Also it will be a cool bling, I like the look of exposed frame, filters and this kind of stuff [evil] As long as it has an actual function and will not hurt the engine.
Run the filter off the breather box under the seat and maintain the faux extra crankcase volume. I did dyno tests on a modified M900 years ago and found no difference with the hose to the air box or just a filter off the breather box under the seat. The difference was the AFR as read by the dyno's EGA at idle/low rpm. This proved the fuel contamination theory. The hp gains running a vacuum are on higher revving race motors or when measuring higher hp % I guess. The dyno didn't notice on my 86p Monster [laugh].
I am wary of just sticking a filter on the crankcase breather near the rear wheel. I'll try and find the threads on all this. You can use the search function here and access so much.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=49770.0
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=71680.0
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=2469.msg31681#msg31681
Issue has fueled some debate. ;D
Or you could get ride a bicycle to/from work and get some exercise.
What aboutwarming up the engine on the side stand for a couple minutes?
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 14, 2020, 03:08:40 AM
<SNIP>
My question is, would it be better to install a filter directly on the crankcase and remove the oil catcher box completely (more space under the seat, yay!), or install it on the hose that goes back to the airbox? Should I be worried about oil dripping down on rear tyre? Or is it just gonna be a case of checking the filter every now and then and washing it/replacing? Perhaps I should attach filter to the hose that goes from the crankcase and install it under seat, above the crankcase opening, so gravity will take care of any oil? Am I overthinking it? [laugh]
<SNIP>
Mount the filter as far back & hi as possible, if you don't mind filter being visible.
Using oil catch tank is better (if you get paranoid about the idea of oil dripping on the rear tire.)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4092/35362563040_bc6f7161f4_c.jpg)
Here's the short thread regarding crank case filter / oil catch tank / removal of oil separator box.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=75844.0
Some interesting opinions in linked threads.
I'll go with your advice koko, filter on the hose off the box, plugged airbox. Not sure about the extra crankcase volume since the one-way valve is mounted on the crankcase, but it will catch oil so it makes sense to keep it anyway. Not bothered about power as long as duc is happy with this setup and it helps with condensation. If performance is noticeably worse, I can always go back to stock :) Thanks a lot [thumbsup]
greenohawk I guess I could, but I won't [laugh] Warming up the bike is another topic. Some say it's best to warm it up as you ride. Keep rpm at a third ish of a limit until fully warmed up. This doesn't put as much stress on the engine, yet it lubricates all parts better because oil pressure is higher. I tend to fire it up, take it out of the 'garage', put my gear on and take off, it takes 2 minutes or a bit longer if I smoke a fag.
Yeah I hear you, I have a slow, 5 min ride out of my estate at about 20-30kmph for a warm up after the putting helmet on, etc. That works with the efi bike, with a carbed 750 I do a more traditional warm up in winter to get those manifolds hot to stop carb freezing. [bang]
Carbed bikes are a little different yeah, especially in winter! [thumbsup]
I'll let you all know how the installation goes and if it works for me, hopefully I can do it this or next weekend - still waiting for the filter.
The filter arrived on Friday and I installed it yesterday. Took my duc for a spin, didn't notice any difference performance wise, bike feels the same. Filter gets warm and is steaming so I guess it works :) Looking at the oil level sight glass it seems that there's less condensation already, however I'm yet to the take a bike for a proper ride when weathers good. It was all white prior to this change to the point I couldn't see oil level clearly and it got a little better after 30min ride.
[thumbsup]
Cover that oil cooler for short trips and when it's below 15-16C unless you are going to ride it hard and/or long. Your temp gauge will give you a feel for when to cover the cooler under local conditions.
how much oil gets up into the overflow reservoir?
why is it needed? to relive oil pressure?
at what point when does it fill?
Not much oil should get up into the breather tank.
A little mist and vapor, as there is some combustion and compression blowby past the piston rings.
The breather is meant to condense most of that out, so that it can then drain back into the engine.
Some vapor will not condense out, and gets sucked into the engine to be burned.
If the piston rings get worn or their sealing performance is degraded, the OEM breather setup also helps keep most of the oil inside the engine.
As it does for folks who wheelie a lot.
I might still cover the cooler like you said, just need to figure out convinient way of doing this. I can't be bothered to take it on/off depending on how I'm gonna ride! Hoping crank vent will be enough once all water evaporates.
I read some horror stories from people installing vent filter directly onto crankcase. Not much oil spitting out, but it's just above the rear wheel, so any amount is very bad. It's a good idea to keep oil catch tank whether you wheelie or not. And locate the filter away from rear wheel just in case... k&n filter looks too cool to keep it under the seat [laugh]
I might just wrap it aluminum foil for now. I'm trying to find oil cooler with built in thermostat, or just a thermostat (aight I admit it I like gadgets and I'm lazy [laugh]). Actually found one where "The valve is shut below 70 C (158 F) and smoothly opens completely at 80 C (176 F), to insure optimal oil temperatures." - sounds like a little project for next winter ;D
/e: aight so I found one made by mocal but it's £100. Not sure I'll ever do it, I'll prob stick to covering the cooler in winter [roll]
/e2: another cheap option I have in mind is to install a manual valve. When open it would circulate oil through the cooler as normal, when closed... well, you know :D what do you think?
Blue for winter, red for summer [laugh] Scrap it. I might just install a valve where oil goes to the cooler and close it for the winter.
(https://i.ibb.co/MB16G33/oilcoolervalve.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 26, 2020, 05:29:25 AM
~~~SNIP~~~
I might just install a valve where oil goes to the cooler and close it for the winter.
Don't do that.
Why not, am I being silly?
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 26, 2020, 08:11:49 AM
Why not, am I being silly?
I'm pretty sure the way the system flows, if you block flow to the cooler you'll shut off oil flow completely, except for the filter bypass.
Nick knows for certain.
When I rode on the street in the fall at temps near 40 F, I just used duct tape. :-\ I tend not to overthink stuff.
Ah it makes sense, thanks for pointing it out! Thinking about it now, to make it work I'd need 3 valves really, in H configuration (plumber needed [laugh]). It just makes no sense to do it unless there's a device designed for this kind of job that I don't know about, otherwise it'll look silly and be overcomplicated. It would be easier to remove oil cooler completely for the cold weather and blank out the holes, then put it back on in the summer. It's funny cos I'm trying to find the most convenient fix.
I'm just discovering all options really! I might and probably will end up using duct tape or aluminum foil, but who knows, maybe I'll figure out a different way. All of you guys have so much knowledge and ideas, I'm so glad I found this forum! [beer] I had no idea the crankcase vent filter is a thing, not to mention million other things you helped me with! I'm very thankful for that and hope I can contribute more in the future [bow_down]
There is a bypass reed-valve under the oil filter that allows oil flow to continue if the oil cooler passages get plugged or one of the lines gets squashed shut.
You'd be using an emergency safety feature full-time, and that's just a bad idea.
Wrapping the oil cooler is simple, cheap, easily verifiable, and does not compromise reliability.
A motor trimmer/upholsterer can make a nice vinyl cover which velcros to itself and can fit under the seat when not used. I'm cable tying on a cut of vinyl at present until I can bother my guy with these small jobs.
There was a time when Lockhart oil coolers came with a vinyl cover not sure if thats still the case.
Your bikes cooler is very effective.
Good point Speeddog! Looks like my only option other than the cover would be thermostat. Apparently evoluzione used to make them for first monsters but they're not in production for years. Only alternative now is mocal. Maybe I'll go for it one day.
For now I'll stick with the cover! :)
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 27, 2020, 01:10:52 AM
Good point Speeddog! Looks like my only option other than the cover would be thermostat. Apparently evoluzione used to make them for first monsters but they're not in production for years. Only alternative now is mocal. Maybe I'll go for it one day.
For now I'll stick with the cover! :)
The evoluzione units restricted oil flow, even when fully open.
So I took it for a spin again this weekend, can't get it to above 86°C (187°F) when riding hard. The cooler is too efficient in winter. I've ordered neoprene sheet and will wrap cooler and secure with long steel cable ties. I noticed there's less condensation in the sight glass thanks to crank vent filter :) But there's still some. Both this and wrapped cooler will do the job I'm sure. Thanks all!
How's it goin'?
I've covered the cooler with 3mm neoprene sheet (front and back) and took it for a ride this weekend. It warms up quicker, in town I reached 114°C (237°F) and I can maintain above 100°C (212°F) on motorway easily :) All condensation is 100% gone, happy days!
[thumbsup]