Always had chokes on my ducks; and kind-a like em for the first 5 min of riding; never stalled a bike until I got the 07 s2r 1K, with the grabby heavy dry clutch, now occasionally stall it like a rookie ;D. Wondering if the "servo" starter assist on the 1K is supposed to keep the rpms up when cold? and is this an electronic adjustment? Seems to idle a little faster at maybe 1400 rpms? asn idles at 1100 when warmed up.
Just bought a choke cable, and now realise I need a bunch of parts; I'll post in parts wanted when its working (not working for me at the moment) will post there later; I'll ask, … if anyone has an extra choke cable holder metal pc with the screws kicking around pls PM, located on the throttle body, under and screwed to the throttle cable holder, … and guess I need the dam left hand control Choke lever mechanisms, (handlebar choke control lever housing (that I had but cant find, either stolen or I maybe chucked it... it was scratched).
Believe parts should be fairly universal form s2r era aluminum bars would work 400 - 620's-800-1K's; and the newer 697's / 795'ves etc. Or suggestions on how to Mechanic McGiver on in the slot on the handle bars would work too; their is aftermarket stuff that should work
The 1000 is supposed to regulate the idle automatically. Lots of stuff need to work in harmony for it to work as advertised.
If you plan to make a manual idle control, the 916 (I think that's the bike...) has a button on the throttle housing. Very simple.
Quote from: stopintime on February 21, 2020, 04:20:00 PM
The 1000 is supposed to regulate the idle automatically. Lots of stuff need to work in harmony for it to work as advertised.
If you plan to make a manual idle control, the 916 (I think that's the bike...) has a button on the throttle housing. Very simple.
ya that's what I though seems to be an evasive adjustment; although I dooo need to look that one up in the mec shop manual; I left it as is last season; but seems to be a low choke when cold at maybe 1400 rpms. Do like a manual mechanical choke like the s2r 800's when its cold.
The 916 button is idle control, but releases when the throttle is turned, so not as much help at lights as the 800 control. It's very much easier to mount though. I'm not sure it's even possible to mount the parts from the 800 on the 1000 throttle cam 'axle'. It has been tried and discussed here (don't know where)(search?).
Anyway - the work required to make your bike make you smile will be required soon anyway. It's not becoming cheaper because you wait.
Quote from: stopintime on February 21, 2020, 04:20:00 PM
The 1000 is supposed to regulate the idle automatically. Lots of stuff need to work in harmony for it to work as advertised.
If you plan to make a manual idle control, the 916 (I think that's the bike...) has a button on the throttle housing. Very simple.
All of that era SBK has that button.
Not sure if it carried over to the 749/999.
Quote from: stopintime on February 21, 2020, 04:20:00 PM
The 1000 is supposed to regulate the idle automatically. Lots of stuff need to work in harmony for it to work as advertised.
If you plan to make a manual idle control, the 916 (I think that's the bike...) has a button on the throttle housing. Very simple.
Yeah, on an S2R1K it's an automagic dingus. To control it you have to control the outputs of the ECU. I have one in the workshop, but it's not connected to a bike.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 21, 2020, 04:58:24 PM
All of that era SBK has that button.
Not sure if it carried over to the 749/999.
749/999 had a fast idle lever like the Monsters.
848/1098/1198 had the FUBAR valve.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 21, 2020, 04:58:24 PM
All of that era SBK has that button.
Not sure if it carried over to the 749/999.
whats SKB? lol
Quote from: Dirty Duc on February 21, 2020, 05:49:40 PM
Yeah, on an S2R1K it's an automagic dingus.
To control it you have to control the outputs of the ECU. I have one in the workshop, but it's not connected to a bike.
ya "automagic dingus"; lost its mojo magic me thinks; the 800 choke is a relatively simple mechanical choke fast idle lever mechanism connected to the TB.
like the man says
Quote from: Speeddog on February 21, 2020, 05:57:20 PM
…. a fast idle lever like the Monsters.
848/1098/1198 had the FUBAR valve.
The automagic dingus requires replacement if it has lost its mojo. The "electronic" throttle dingus from the 800 isn't a 1-for-1 replacement as I understand the technology. If it were, a person could swap throttle bodies between the 800 and 1K without any other changes.
SBK= Superbike 748/916/996/998
SKB= Japanese shotgun manufacturer
When was last valve service?
Last TPS check?
What map in the ECU?
You would not be adding a choke, you would be adding a fast idle lever which is only opening the throttle a bit. Your bike doesn't have this because it has an idle speed motor controlled by the computer. Simpler would be a throttle lock like this https://www.aerostich.com/universal-vista-cruise-control.html
Quote from: greenmonster on February 22, 2020, 04:46:14 AM
When was last valve service?
Last TPS check?
What map in the ECU?
This, plus are the temperature sensors working properly. Oh, add CO and throttle synch to the list.
Quote from: greenmonster on February 22, 2020, 04:46:14 AM
When was last valve service?
Last TPS check?
What map in the ECU?
Quote from: howie on February 22, 2020, 05:00:04 AM
You would not be adding a choke, you would be adding a fast idle lever which is only opening the throttle a bit. Your bike doesn't have this because it has an idle speed motor controlled by the computer. Simpler would be a throttle lock like this https://www.aerostich.com/universal-vista-cruise-control.html
This, plus are the temperature sensors working properly. Oh, add CO and throttle synch to the list.
yes, a fast idle lever … that kind-a acts as a choke ...
This 07 s2r 1k has a race ecu; last year I had it professionally tuned by a Duc race mechanic; best in the area. Mec said it had a good strong ecu map. It had an occasional intake pop before the tuning and a chunky hotrod idle; was unique sound I also knida liked; but runs smoother and better now; think it was running a little rich before; Im assuming he would have seen and reported off on anything that was amiss; no mention of the electronic choke.
IME the FUBAR valves are intermittent, sometimes they're OK, sometimes not.
Dunno if they get gummed up or what the malady is.
Ideally, removed, cleaned and tested.
That's a labor-intensive job and most folks don't want to spend that much.
They can be removed/plugged/bypassed and the sync and idle can be adjusted like prior models.
With an appropriately reflashed ECU, the trim can be adjusted as well.
S2R800 appears to have the same TPS and injectors, so I suspect the entire throttle body could be swapped.
Pretty sure you'd need the left bar switch assembly as the lever and cable are hung off that.
Quote from: DuciD03 on February 22, 2020, 09:37:05 AM
yes, a fast idle lever … that kind-a acts as a choke ...
I'd say it acts like a twist throttle rather than choke. All the cold start lever does is it rotates butterfly valve in the tb to allow more air. Choke does the opposite as the name suggests, it limits amount of air! [evil] [roll]
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 24, 2020, 01:31:22 AM
I'd say it acts like a twist throttle rather than choke. All the cold start lever does is it rotates butterfly valve in the tb to allow more air. Choke does the opposite as the name suggests, it limits amount of air! [evil] [roll]
Yep.
Quote.All the cold start lever does is it rotates butterfly valve in the tb to allow more air.
No. More throttle, higher TPS, more fuel
and air.
Quote from: greenmonster on February 25, 2020, 05:05:26 AM
No. More throttle, higher TPS, more fuel and air.
Can you elaborate?
Principle is the same, both twist throttle and cold start lever are connected to tb and they do the samo job. AFR is adjusted by ECU the same way for both, so yes more air means more fuel of course, but the lever itself just opens the valve and lets more air in. Amount of fuel is controlled by another device. My point was choke reduces amount of air, which is kind of the opposite of what the cold start lever does. Assuming we're not talking about enrichment circuit or other systems people call "choke" ;D
I'm not arguing, just not sure I understand what you mean - I am no expert by all means and still learning about this stuff so please correct me if I'm wrong!
Throttle angle is an input to the computer. That, along with RPM, temperature and, depending how complex the system, other data affects fueling. On an engine with an idle control motor idle speed is controlled by the motor allowing more or less air past the throttle. Assuming the bike is not modified and perfect opening the throttle disturbs the fueling.
Back when Monsters had carbs we (including both me and Ducati) wrongfully used the term "choke". The choke cable was attached to a device (starter enrichment plunger) that adds the needed fuel for cold start. Same with old European cars with CV carbs
+1
Yeah, we often use the term choke as a generic term to include carb enrichment devices, fast idle devices, etc coz we're old ;D.
Just to add further confusion, I used to remove choke plates from Harley carbs back in the day, then port them. I left the fast idle detente however, so there was still a "choke" knob and cable to activate fast idle at warm up. I then derestricted the accelerator pump to use as an enrichment device.
Just tryin' to help. [laugh]
... [popcorn]... [bacon] ... [bow_down]
[shot]
inner-est-in!… ill have to review again when Im less tiered.
…. have a machine with a plunger; and one with a thermal plug....and some more modern ones with electronic doo-hickies ….
… look-in for a manual lever and the screw on fast idle (choke) mechanism off a 02-07 s2r 400-800, Looks like the 750 era fast idle lever would do the trick ???; ;D. Willing to pay a bit; donors welcome. ebay has lots of options; but ill have to dig to find the bits ...
I was wondering why ducati didn't program ECU to adjust idle on my and other older (?) monsters, as there's an option to set idle in relation to temperature in ECU. Why bother with lever I wondered? I then figured this is the case on FI monsters with no stepper motor, so I read more about these devices. Like howie said it opens a valve to give more/less air, thus increasing idle.
I guess the answer is, because ECU can only add more fuel to increase idle, making the bike idle richer, thus not meeting emission standards ;D Whilst stepper motor adds more air (therfore more fuel as well) so theoretically it does the same job but better as it keeps AFR the same ish. Why didn't they add stepper motor to some FI bikes is another question, my guess is to save money perhaps.
All of the above might be completely wrong, just my thoughts. In any case, I don't care about emissions so my idle is increased by ECU when cold, so I tend to use cold start lever as a cruise control instead :D
Given the idle control valves list at around $1000 (or used to anyway), it'd be a cost function on cheaper models. Closed loop models benefit much more from them too.
If your cold idle on an idle control bike is a bit crappy getting into the file and increasing the ignition advance on the idle map can make a real difference to how effectively the idle speed control works. You might need to get into the breakpoints and idle speed targets to make it super stable, but ignition advance is the key in my experience.
Otherwise, as has been mentioned, get some 800 throttle bodies (before 2007 or so are better) and fit that set up. You'll need to reset the idle stop to account for the difference in TPS setting at idle. You'll also need to flash the ecu with an non idle control file too, otherwise the input allocated to the idle control valve opening (there's a specific rpm vs opening fuel map) will make setting up the idle mixture fairly hard I would think - never actually tried to introduce a mess like that. Using an M1000 based file works just fine in an S2R1000 with the idle control valve disconnected. the ecu simply doesn't acknowledge it. You'd need to migrate your S2R1000 values over into the M1000 file. Shouldn't be that hard.
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 26, 2020, 01:28:41 AM
In any case, I don't care about emissions so my idle is increased by ECU when cold, so I tend to use cold start lever as a cruise control instead :D
If your bike has a factory fitted fast idle lever then there is no idle speed control facility via the ecu. Idle speed is set via the air bleeds and also quite effected by the idle mixture (trimmer setting) if the mixture is enough too lean or rich.
Quote from: Orange16 on February 26, 2020, 02:07:11 AM
If your bike has a factory fitted fast idle lever then there is no idle speed control facility via the ecu. Idle speed is set via the air bleeds and also quite effected by the idle mixture (trimmer setting) if the mixture is enough too lean or rich.
I assure you there is :) Check my post here:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=77937.msg1429780#msg1429780Factory map has it set to 1000, however ECU is perfectly capable of adjusting idle. I've set mine to idle at 1500 when cold and 1250 when warm - works perfectly fine.
S2R800? How do you think the ecu controls the idle speed?
Quote from: Orange16 on February 26, 2020, 02:46:31 AM
S2R800? How do you think the ecu controls the idle speed?
Yes it's '05 s2r800 with cold start lever. I guess it adds more fuel until rpm sensor reading reaches value stored in the map depending on the air temp sensor reading, sort of like electronic enrichment circuit. It's only my assumption, when firing up the bike it takes a couple of seconds to adjust it from 'base' idle rpm, I guess it's the time needed to get the sensors running and gradually increasing amount of fuel injected. Don't quote me on that, I can't think of any other way but it works.
It's only accurate with correct fuel map, synchronized tb and correct valve clearances. You can of course still do minor adjustements with air bleed screws as well like you said.
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 26, 2020, 03:13:49 AM
Yes it's '05 s2r800 with cold start lever. I guess it adds more fuel until rpm sensor reading reaches value stored in the map depending on the air temp sensor reading, sort of like electronic enrichment circuit. It's only my assumption, when firing up the bike it takes a couple of seconds to adjust it from 'base' idle rpm, I guess it's the time needed to get the sensors running and gradually increasing amount of fuel injected. Don't quote me on that, I can't think of any other way but it works.
It's only accurate with correct fuel map, synchronized tb and correct valve clearances. You can of course still do minor adjustements with air bleed screws as well like you said.
AFAIK, there is an enrichment cycle on every startup that stays on until the engine reaches a set number of revolutions, I think it's until 1000 total revolutions.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 26, 2020, 08:07:07 AM
AFAIK, there is an enrichment cycle on every startup that stays on until the engine reaches a set number of revolutions, I think it's until 1000 total revolutions.
That would explain why it was set to 1000 in ECU by Ducati and confirms my theory I think. [thumbsup]
It's not set for 1000 RPM.
It's set for 1000 total engine revolutions since startup.
It's an enrichment strategy for cold starting, not an idle speed strategy.
Ah, got ya! That's interesting. Do you know more about how it works?
In any case, idle can be set in ECU, so it works one way or another.
Setting idle RPM in the ECU is only useful if there's an idle air valve, and it's then depending on that device to operate properly, which they do not always do.
Also keep in mind that before changing the program in the computer you must make sure all basic settings are good. If, for example, TPS is not set correctly or malfunctioning so idle speed is off. Go into computer, set speed. Down the road the real problem is fixed, now idle speed is wrong.
…. [popcorn]… I re-read and am following along ...need more toquilla...
... [bow_down]…. [bacon].
Quote from: Speeddog on February 27, 2020, 08:21:36 AM
Setting idle RPM in the ECU is only useful if there's an idle air valve, and it's then depending on that device to operate properly, which they do not always do.
Why is it not useful if a motorcycle doesn't have one?
Quote from: howie on February 27, 2020, 10:34:24 AM
Also keep in mind that before changing the program in the computer you must make sure all basic settings are good. If, for example, TPS is not set correctly or malfunctioning so idle speed is off. Go into computer, set speed. Down the road the real problem is fixed, now idle speed is wrong.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 28, 2020, 02:14:05 AM
Why is it not useful if a motorcycle doesn't have one?
[thumbsup]
Because there's no connection between the throttle bodies and the ecu to make it happen.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 28, 2020, 04:27:44 AM
Because there's no connection between the throttle bodies and the ecu to make it happen.
I understand, however my ECU makes it happen without stepper motor in place. Are you saying it's impossible, or not efficient, and if so, why? I
assume the way it works is it inject more fuel, as I said before, so it's very much the same as choke/enrichement circuit - making mixture richer and consequently increasing idle without adjusting amount of air coming in.
Quote from: pmazdan9 on February 28, 2020, 05:13:09 AM
I understand, however my ECU makes it happen without stepper motor in place. Are you saying it's impossible, or not efficient, and if so, why? I assume the way it works is it inject more fuel, as I said before, so it's very much the same as choke/enrichement circuit - making mixture richer and consequently increasing idle without adjusting amount of air coming in.
There's a difference between using it to set enrichment, and idle speed.
If you are raising the idle speed by adding fuel, I'd suggest your TB's, or map, are not set correctly in the first place.
If you're old enough to remember cars with either manual, or automatic, chokes they also had a mechanism to increase throttle position when the choke plate was closed to avoid stalling. The simple addition of fuel won't raise idle speed unless the base mixture is too lean for the throttle position.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 28, 2020, 05:58:23 AM
There's a difference between using it to set enrichment, and idle speed.
If you are raising the idle speed by adding fuel, I'd suggest your TB's, or map, are not set correctly in the first place.
If you're old enough to remember cars with either manual, or automatic, chokes they also had a mechanism to increase throttle position when the choke plate was closed to avoid stalling. The simple addition of fuel won't raise idle speed unless the base mixture is too lean for the throttle position.
Bike's been just fully serviced (valves, tb sync), map is a base map for my set up, so it's not perfect, but feels like it couldn't be much better, if at all - that's a subjective opinion though, I know.
I though adding fuel would increase the idle (to certain point), but will run too rich, since more fuel and air does it but keeps AFR correct. I guess I was wrong all along then. Either my bike runs too lean, like you said, but I really doubt it (I'll check my plugs when I can to confirm) or it somehow adds more air as well. Remember there is an option to adjust idle in the map on my bike, so it is doing something ??? Why would it be there if it didn't work properly.
OP, sorry I didn't mean to hijack your thread [roll] I'd say it's a bit weird that your bike stalls at 1100rpm for a start, seems like your idle is adjusted correctly by a stepper motor. I think adding a "choke" is just a band aid for another problem? Dragging clutch?
The ecu parameters are the same in your bike as in the models that have the stepper. Just because the parameter is there doesn't mean it's used.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 28, 2020, 06:42:31 AM
The ecu parameters are the same in your bike as in the models that have the stepper. Just because the parameter is there doesn't mean it's used.
From a programmer's point of view (I do it for a living) it would be a very poor software development. If there's a function that requires, to simplify, two devices (injector and air valve) to work as intended, and one is not there (air valve), it should not do anything, especially if it was designed to work with motorcycles with different setups.
It looks like this is the case though. I guess it indicates a very lean condition if it increases idle by 250 (or possibly more, just didn't try) just by adding fuel.
Interesting and informative conversation. Thanks [thumbsup]
What is the address in the file that you think is the idle control? Which file are you using?
I'm not messing around with the .hex file myself, just using software that reads it and allows to adjust certain settings.
(https://i.ibb.co/6w6BcMd/Screenshot-20200208-150605-Tune-ECU.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GpgTf6h)
On the files for bikes without idle control that I looked at that line is 1000 at all points.
There is generally an ignition advance versus engine temp table where they pick up advance when the engine is cold, which can help idle them up a little.
That's correct it was 1000 on original map, but I've changed it to the figures above, and it worked. I didn't mess around with ignition advance but I think you're right there is a table for that too IIRC!
Yeah. The point we've been trying to make to you is that there is no way changing that table can change your idle speed, as the ecu has no way to physically do it.
I understand what point you're trying to make. My point is, ever since I'v changed these values in the map, it raises idle when cold, which it's never done before. I though it adds more fuel and voila, job done with no air valve controlled by ECU, but looks like I was wrong - as dupainter said, more fuel shouldn't increasse idle unless it runs lean to begin with. Existance of this table in the map confused me (idle vs temp), it shouldn't be there if it's not meant to do the job.
Interesting.
The idle control valve fuel versus opening table is also there, it's just all 0. 1000 is either a default (someone at Marelli thought 1000 was a good number) or an "off" trigger.
My guess is that it's really lean as others have said. How far out are the air bleeds and what's the idle trimmer set to?
Quote from: Orange16 on March 03, 2020, 02:28:28 AM
The idle control valve fuel versus opening table is also there, it's just all 0.
I'm not sure what you mean, none of availible tables in my map look like what you describe.
Quote from: Orange16 on March 03, 2020, 02:28:28 AM
1000 is either a default (someone at Marelli thought 1000 was a good number) or an "off" trigger.
Whether it's true or not, it shouldn't do anything if there's no air valve (assuming it's meant to control it) ???
Quote from: Orange16 on March 03, 2020, 02:28:28 AM
My guess is that it's really lean as others have said. How far out are the air bleeds and what's the idle trimmer set to?
I don't know how far out they are really, recently picked it up from a professional who did my valves and tb sync. There's no oxygen sensor on th '05 if thats what you mean?
Here's the thing: it runs perfectly fine. Idles steadily, rpm doesn't fluctuate at all. Fires up on touch of the button, cold or not. Rides smoothly even at 3k rpm. Pops on decel a little bit, but sounds healthy. Prior to changing map, it was backfiring through an airbox occasionally, and popping on decel really bad ever since I've changed air filter to DP. I've imported PC fuel trim table for similar setup to mine, that is sport filter with open airbox, decat full sport exhaust system with no baffles; whilst I know the fueling is not gonna be perfect as it's only a base map, I very much doubt it's so lean that a bit of extra fuel (assuming this is what the idle vs temp table does) increases idle by 250, or possibly more. I said I doubt it but obviously I might be completely wrong ;D At the end of a day I'm no mechanic, jeez I don't even know that much about this stuff. I'm not trying to defend my statement by all means!
Assuming AFR is perfect, why would extra fuel not increase the idle?
Quote from: pmazdan9 on March 03, 2020, 04:42:22 AM
<snip>
Assuming AFR is perfect, why would extra fuel not increase the idle?
Because if the AFR is perfect, extra fuel will reduce idle...period, end of report.
The fact that your bike still pops on decel indicates a less than perfect AFR.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 03, 2020, 04:52:18 AM
Because if the AFR is perfect, extra fuel will reduce idle...period, end of report.
The fact that your bike still pops on decel indicates a less than perfect AFR.
[thumbsup]
I didn't think it through, I kept thinking enrichment circuit on carbd bikes only adds more fuel. It doesn't, should have done my homework first. Everything makes sense now [bow_down]
Conclussion is, my bike runs lean, idle raises when extra fuel is being added because it brings AFR closer to perfect. I guess Ducati didn't intend to make ECU adjustements availible to public hence why they didn't bother to remove some settings that are not meant to be changed. To confirm that I found I can enable o2 sensor even though I don't have one.
Let's move on [wasn't]