Sooo. I removed my spark plugs and discovered I might have a problem...
The vertical is somewhat fine, with some burn marks around the nut
(https://i.ibb.co/FhNHXjc/Top-plug.jpg)
But the horizontal? picture speaks for it self...
(https://i.ibb.co/7Vs0tcL/Bottom-plug.jpg)
I even see some residue in the tube, that might prove difficult to remove
(https://i.ibb.co/tb429QH/Bottom-tube-2.jpg)
And Im not sure how a piston on a 18 year old bike should look like... is this normal?
(https://i.ibb.co/mSh05YF/Bottom-piston.jpg)
Do I have a big problem or no problem at all? I guess I can fit a bolt in there, while I clean the tube so nothing goes inwards
Looks to me like there was some excessive oil consumption going on in that cylinder. Does the engine turn by hand? History on the bike would help.
Yes, I can turn the engine without a problem.
Regarding the history of the bike, I dont have too much unfortenately. The previous owner had it serviced (valve check, belt change, oil, filter etc) in 2017, and never had any running problems. He didnt ride too much though, hence the sale to me last summer. It ran smoothly, before I started dismantling it.
I would want to change the belts before running the bike since they are 7 years old. Yes, low mileage but they have been on the bike under tension. After that I would do exactly what you are doing, clean the external yuk, new NGK R2525-10 spark plugs gap .024. Maybe fresh fuel too?
Water in the vert cylinder plug well rusting the plug hex from time in the weather?
Maybe oil in chamber from an attempt to store the bike? (Hopefully).
Do all Howie said. [thumbsup]
I want to see the air filter. How is the state of the fuel/fuel tank and fuel system?
Quote from: Howie on February 07, 2023, 06:05:07 AM
I would want to change the belts before running the bike since they are 7 years old. Yes, low mileage but they have been on the bike under tension. After that I would do exactly what you are doing, clean the external yuk, new NGK R2525-10 spark plugs gap .024. Maybe fresh fuel too?
So no need of opening the engine? What a relief!
Yes, belt change is way over due so its on my list. I need to remove them anyway, while checking the valves. The bike is undergoing the supreme spa treatment, getting checked, washed and repainted, but doing surgery inside the engine is something I hope to avoid.
Regarding the rusty plug, I guess I'll refit the better one while spraying the chamber down with wd-40 (sounds good?) and air blow/ clean the heck of it. And of course install new ones.
So you recomend NGK R2525-10 over the old NGK CR9EIX that was installed? The bike is a 04' S4R
Quote from: koko64 on February 07, 2023, 07:28:51 AM
Water in the vert cylinder plug well rusting the plug hex from time in the weather?
Maybe oil in chamber from an attempt to store the bike? (Hopefully).
Do all Howie said. [thumbsup]
I want to see the air filter. How is the state of the fuel/fuel tank and fuel system?
The air filter is something else Id like to change.
(https://i.ibb.co/k0yKGZD/DSC-0489.jpg)
Previous owner had Termis on and cut the top of the filter box
(https://i.ibb.co/N2RQcrP/DSC-0490.jpg)
Im going to refit the OEM exhaust system and put the lid back on (It was the race only termis)
Apart from a broken fuel gauge sensor the rest of the fuel system is fine
Actually that is the plug NGK recommends. Do you have the owners manual for the bike? At small gaps the spark kernel is not ideal for proper ignition with an iridium plug.
Assuming the bike has a DP ECU or has been flashed the bike will run rich with the closed air box and stock exhaust. If it was my bike I would probably just install DB killers, assuming the Termis are in goodnuf condition.
Yeah, the manual actually says DCPR9EVX, but Ive read there is better around. I dont mind trying the 2525-10 if that is what you recomend.
The ECU is OEM and hasnt been flashed, but yeah Ive been told the race-termis is the way to ride. I wont sell them, so I'll see. The stock exhaust system came with the bike, so I can always change it back if I get pulled over [thumbsup]
Go with the manual.
Quote from: Howie on February 07, 2023, 10:41:46 AM
Go with the manual.
They also recomended the Champion RA 59 GC. Just found out both are discontinued, so Im back to square one. I emailed Ducati now just to be sure, as I wont be needing them any time soon anyway. I'll post their reply.
But you guys dont have any objection with me cleaning the well with Wd-40, right?
Quote from: thegunner76 on February 07, 2023, 08:51:41 AM
Yeah, the manual actually says DCPR9EVX, but Ive read there is better around. I dont mind trying the 2525-10 if that is what you recomend.
The ECU is OEM and hasnt been flashed, but yeah Ive been told the race-termis is the way to ride. I wont sell them, so I'll see. The stock exhaust system came with the bike, so I can always change it back if I get pulled over [thumbsup]
According to NGK, that plug has been replaced by the EIX plug, but not the one that was installed.
Item has been discontinued. This product may be used as a replacement:
NGK 2316 DCPR9EIX Iridium IX Spark Plug
I like NGK plugs better than the Champions.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 07, 2023, 11:54:32 AM
According to NGK, that plug has been replaced by the EIX plug, but not the one that was installed.
Item has been discontinued. This product may be used as a replacement:
NGK 2316 DCPR9EIX Iridium IX Spark Plug
I like NGK plugs better than the Champions.
Cheers, Ducpainter. It seems alot of people agree with you regarding NGK
Quote from: ducpainter on February 07, 2023, 11:54:32 AM
According to NGK, that plug has been replaced by the EIX plug, but not the one that was installed.
Item has been discontinued. This product may be used as a replacement:
NGK 2316 DCPR9EIX Iridium IX Spark Plug
I like NGK plugs better than the Champions.
And right you were Ducpaint... According to the official Ducati shop, they use NGK 2316 DCPR9EIX Iridium IX.
The one installed was NGK 3521 CR9EIX Iridium IX, which I guess the previous owner thought was the same?
This could be the culprit of the discoloured piston, right?
Quote from: thegunner76 on February 11, 2023, 04:50:53 AM
And right you were Ducpaint... According to the official Ducati shop, they use NGK 2316 DCPR9EIX Iridium IX.
The one installed was NGK 3521 CR9EIX Iridium IX, which I guess the previous owner thought was the same?
This could be the culprit of the discoloured piston, right?
IMO, only partially. I believe you may have bad valve seals, and it's also possible that deposit is from too high octane fuel. Contrary to popular opinion, and confusion created by the different octane rating systems in the US and the rest of the world, our stock engined Ducs only need 87 octane. I think you're in OZ, so I'd recommend 91. Stock motors are not high enough compression to require more octane, unless you have some pinging due to tuning issues.
Here's what I'd do. I'd start using some Chevron Techron to remove some of that carbon... https://www.chevronlubricants.com/en_us/home/products/techron-complete-fuel-system-cleaner.html , run only 87/91 octane fuel, have the valves professionally adjusted, or DIY if you're up to it, and see what 's what in 10K km.
Nice advice. I'll definitely will do the fuel system cleaning and change the gaskets. Regarding the valve adjustments, my own hands will do for now [roll]
Im no expert, but when you are talking about the fuel itself I think you are on to something. I live in norway, and the government mix at least 10% bioethanol in the petrol which ive read isnt kind to old engines. The common octane here is 95, but I believe you can get 98 at some stations. The octane levels isnt completely comparable to US values, so when you say 93, I guess thats equivalent to our 95 (more or less). Im 95% sure ;) the previous owner used regular 95 octane...
Which leaves me to the consumption that Im looking at wrong spark plugs together with ethanol petrol on a old bike with the need of a valve adjustments. Thanks. Again [thumbsup]
I think Norway uses the same octane system as the rest of Europe. If 93 is the lowest available use it. If 91 is available I believe it would be adequate.
We have ethanol in our fuel here in the US, as well. It causes it's own set of issues, but octane isn't involved.
The plugs that were installed were not the projected tip type that Ducatis need. I bet it will run much better with the correct plugs. The Techron will help remove the deposits from the pistons. I would use it as recommended on the label, and avoid all other fuel supplememnts.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 11, 2023, 08:39:47 AM
I think Norway uses the same octane system as the rest of Europe. If 93 is the lowest available use it. If 91 is available I believe it would be adequate.
We have ethanol in our fuel here in the US, as well. It causes it's own set of issues, but octane isn't involved.
The plugs that were installed were not the projected tip type that Ducatis need. I bet it will run much better with the correct plugs. The Techron will help remove the deposits from the pistons. I would use it as recommended on the label, and avoid all other fuel supplememnts.
I wouldn't be so quick to recommend less than 95 RON for that bike Nate. You may be correct, but I have to say may. There really is no equivalent between AKI numbers and RON. AKI is RON+ MON divided by 2. The problem is the answer is not mathematical. To save a lot of typing, https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-ron-and-mon We came up with AKI back in the late 70's or early 80's, not sure. There was a big push to improve fuel economy. One of the ways they accomplished this was by increasing volumetric efficiency at the relatively low highway speed on our EPA test. This led to ping at light throttle just after an upshift instead of the usual traditional ping from lugging the engine in a high gear. Also, the famous General motors claim a little knock is good.
That SR4R is higher compression than the S4, 11.5. In the US it runs fine on regular, but maybe not in Norway.
Point taken, Howie, but I still recommend the minimum octane to prevent pinging. I got the conversion off the net.
I'm no scientist, but if 89 works in the states, whatever the equivalent is in Europe should work.
+1 on 95 RON to be sure. Consider 98 in summer (30°C +) and track days if the compression is higher than 10.5:1 in a big bore. I guess 30°C is rare up there, so 98 may be unecessary.
After reading that link it confirms in my mind why some bikes may run well in cool weather with a low octane fuel but struggle in hot temps unless the next level higher octane fuel is used. That's consistent with my experience in a country with the RON rating and hot summers. Our fuel in Australia is the poorest quality in OECD countries however, so maybe my experience is worthless to those in the EU and US.. In much of the EU, 95 RON is the base level fuel as reflected in the owners manuals.