I had been using the E10 gas this whole time without ever noticing but after reading the info on this board I rode hard last nite to empty alot of the tank. Filled up with the good stuff at lunch and Oh Man!! It runs much smoother now. I noticed the difference immediately. I had to call two different oil distributors to find out who still sold pure gas. There are only 3 places left in my town.
You all can thank your government for this, by the way.
i lucked out and there is a Chevron/texaco about 1/4 mile from my house and they sell gas that isnt tainted by ethanol. the owner of the store has a boosted s2000 and he said he will hold out on running ethanol through his pumps as long as possible cause it makes his car run like poop!
There is 1 place in town that I know of that sells 10% ethanol gas, as well as non-ethanol gas (87oct I think). But for the non eth they charge something like .10 more. I don't bother with it for the extra cost.
Does anyone know who I could contact to find the nearest non-ethanol pump in the greater Houston area? I'd love to run the good stuff but everywhere I've seen has the E10 junk.
Quote from: slim_grizzy on August 05, 2008, 03:29:23 PM
Does anyone know who I could contact to find the nearest non-ethanol pump in the greater Houston area? I'd love to run the good stuff but everywhere I've seen has the E10 junk.
try looking for a Valero station.
Quote from: slim_grizzy on August 05, 2008, 03:29:23 PM
Does anyone know who I could contact to find the nearest non-ethanol pump in the greater Houston area? I'd love to run the good stuff but everywhere I've seen has the E10 junk.
ud have to check if its even legal to sell non ethanol gas in your area. in NYC, its mandatory due to regulations.
Quote from: DrNo08 on August 05, 2008, 02:15:13 PM
I had been using the E10 gas this whole time without ever noticing but after reading the info on this board I rode hard last nite to empty alot of the tank. Filled up with the good stuff at lunch and Oh Man!! It runs much smoother now. I noticed the difference immediately. I had to call two different oil distributors to find out who still sold pure gas. There are only 3 places left in my town.
You all can thank your government for this, by the way.
hmmm... last thing I read on TOB actually people were saying the Duc motor will run best on 87 and in a way 93 is bad for it, I am not a pro on the topic thought but I use 87 after what I read. of course I have a 620 and you might have a S4rs for all I know that might change the rules we apply to filling up.
Quote from: eesnas on August 05, 2008, 05:43:48 PM
you might have a S4rs for all I know that might change the rules we apply to filling up.
I run a tank of 100 octane every once and a while and it's pretty damn smooth.
Quote from: slim_grizzy on August 05, 2008, 03:29:23 PM
Does anyone know who I could contact to find the nearest non-ethanol pump in the greater Houston area? I'd love to run the good stuff but everywhere I've seen has the E10 junk.
You might try the yellow pages or call around to a few random convienient stores and ask them who supplies their oil. I don't mean "Texaco", etc. Ask them who their distributor is. Who actually delivers the gas to their store. Once you get that you can call that distributor and ask them if they distribute any of the good stuff or if they know of any oil distributor that does.
Here's a write up from my local paper where mechanics are discussing it.
ETHANOL BATTLE
7/13/2008
By Dennis Seid
Daily Journal
SALTILLO - Jerry Wilburn has been there, done that, and has paid the price.
The last time the owner of Wilburn Oil Co. tried selling gasoline mixed with ethanol, he lost $17,000.
Several years ago, he sold a premium version of the mixture at one of his gas stations.
"But we had several cars that broke down because of it," he said. "I felt terrible, and I paid for the repairs myself. The oil companies didn't offer me a dime."
So when the government began mandating the mixture of ethanol into gasoline, Wilburn wasn't enthused at all. In fact, he's making a pointed effort to get his ethanol-free gasoline from a terminal in Meridian. It supplies Wilburn's six convenience stores, plus another 23 in the area.
E10 is the industry term for petroleum gas mixed with 10 percent ethanol that is commonly found today.
"Ethanol is cutting about 10 percent of your mileage, too," according to Wilburn. "So you can say it's costing you 40 cents a gallon more. As long as I can get it, I'll be selling ethanol-free gas at my stores."
However, some industry officials say that E10 is only 2 percent to 3 percent less efficient than unmixed fuel.
Wilburn has posted signs on gas pumps, saying just that, and some consumers couldn't be happier.
"I've seen my gas mileage drop because I was getting the ethanol and I was getting six or seven miles per gallon less," said Jason Sardis, who was filling up at a Tupelo gas station that sells E10. "I'm glad to see somebody not selling the junk."
Chuck Wood, vice president of Wilburn Oil, sees another downside for ethanol’s corn-based production.
"When you're using food for fuel, you're taking food from people's tables, and that's just not the way to go," he said. "There are pros and cons of using ethanol, but everything I've seen convinces me that it's not good. Look at the price of corn and how that's rippled across the economy."
Industry responds
The ethanol industry says comments like Wood's are part of how consumers are being misinformed about the use of ethanol.
Robert White, director of operations for the Ethanol Promotion and Information Council based out of Omaha, has written letters to newspapers across the country, including the Daily Journal, defending the industry.
He has written that "finger-pointing at corn-based ethanol is on the rise with irrational claims that this home-grown product is causing food prices to increase domestically and abroad. Such claims are a blatant exaggeration of the truth."
White and the council say that field corn - most of which is fed to livestock - is being used for ethanol production. Only a small percentage of field corn goes into cereals and snacks.
The skyrocketing food prices can be blamed more on the higher energy, labor, transportation and packaging costs, he writes in the letter.
"Now is not the time to give up on ethanol and the promise it holds for Mississippi and the nation," White's letter reads. "Ethanol is a renewable fuel that grows in the fertile farmlands of America, provides jobs for many and is better for our environment. It is just one element in our drive to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. It should not be the ill-aimed target for global issues beyond our control."
Jerry Wilkerson, executive director of the Mississippi Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Stores Association, said the organization doesn’t have a position on the use of ethanol.
However, he did say "It's a good product. Everyone is just trying to stay competive on their price."
"Some people will go out of their way to buy it because they feel like it is a benefit," he said. "Some of them don't want it."
Other problems
But there may be other issues that the industry has to address.
Jeff Lenard, a spokesman for the National Association of Convenience Stores, said E10 fuel will run in any car.
But, "ethanol is much more corrosive" than petroleum, he added.
In fact, some repair shops say they've had to do more repairs.
Billy Tedford, owner of Billy's Auto Repair and Cleanup Shop in Pontotoc, said he has seen 30 to 40 vehicles in the past three months that have had problems burning ethanol. The most common complaints, he said, are the vehicles aren't running as good as they used to and they aren't getting good gas mileage.
"We run computer scans when the 'check engine' light comes on," he said. "We charge $40 and we hate to put it on there and tell them that 'It's nothing wrong with your car. It's the gas you're putting in it.'"
E10 also is having an effect on smaller equipment and vehicles such as ATVs, lawn mowers, marine engines, blowers and chainsaws. Russ Harrington, owner of 4 Seasons Equipment Co. in Tupelo, said his repair business has been up significantly this past year and he attributed it to E10 and the additives put in regular fuel.
"The smaller it is, the more trouble it seems to give them," Harrington said. "They have designed the equipment so it will run on it, but it's the long sitting that hurts it more than everything else.â€
Lenard said the mandate means consumers will be seeing more ethanol, and that a recent study shows there is a demand for it.
What do customers want?
NACS surveyed customers in January and found there was "pretty strong support for purchasing ethanol now."
But, Lenard warned that you have to "look at the difference between what they say and what they do."
"I think with ethanol, when it comes down to it, the only green they care about is what’s in their wallet."
Wilburn, though, is sticking to his anti-ethanol stance.
"We've gotten a lot of good positive reaction from our customers," he said. "I know people who have had problems with ethanol, and I feel sorry for the people who don't know what it can do to their cars."
I know that some folks who own boats are having BIG problems with E-10.
Older boats with fiberglass fuel tanks are having to refit steel or aluminum tanks, which can cost multiple thousands of $$. The ethanol breaks down the resins in the fiberglass, which causes the carbs to gum up, and the engines to quit, and/or, it causes fuel to leak from the tanks, creating a safety hazard.
Even boats with metal tanks are having trouble. The Ethanol seperates from the petroleum in as little as 2-3 months, and the straight ethanol is harder to burn, with lower octane, causing detonation of the pistons, or just a non-start situation. The only cure is to have the tanks drained, and the fuel discarded ("Can you say "hazardous waste"? I knew you could!") which also costs a good bit.
Unfortunately, it's here to stay. Just another instance of "I'm from the government, I'm here to help you."
Here in MN, E10 is everywhere. However, some gas retailers can get through a loophole that allows the sale of non-ethanol (aka "Non-oxygenated") fuel for use in "Boats, collector cars, and off-road equipment". ;) I keep a small inventory of non-oxy fuel in my garage that I can use to fill up the Duc. [thumbsup]
Thankfully, the MN Street Rod association compiled a list of all the filling stations in the state that sell non-ethanol gas. Maybe some of you who live in other states will find a similar resource? Collector car guys are really uptight about the whole ethanol thing. It's worth a google search...
Quote from: bluemoco v2.0 on August 05, 2008, 08:14:41 PM
Here in MN, E10 is everywhere. However, some gas retailers can get through a loophole that allows the sale of non-ethanol (aka "Non-oxygenated") fuel for use in "Boats, collector cars, and off-road equipment". ;) I keep a small inventory of non-oxy fuel in my garage that I can use to fill up the Duc. [thumbsup]
Thankfully, the MN Street Rod association compiled a list of all the filling stations in the state that sell non-ethanol gas.
www.msra.com/nonoxygenatedfuel/nonoxylist03.01.08.pdf
Maybe some of you who live in other states will find a similar resource? Collector car guys are really uptight about the whole ethanol thing. It's worth a google search...
That link is dead, my friend.
I live in Hawaii which mandates its use, but the local marinas sell gas without it. Try a local boat marina or dock.
Quote from: DrNo08 on August 05, 2008, 07:15:51 PM
SNIP.....
White and the council say that field corn - most of which is fed to livestock - is being used for ethanol production. Only a small percentage of field corn goes into cereals and snacks.
SNIP.....
Oh, so it's the farmers that are causing the price to go up 'cos they got to compete with the Ethanol companies to buy food for their livestock, forcing their costs up and passing the expense onto the consumers. Maybe they can import their livestock corn from 3rd world countries, as long as the Ethanol companies aren't causing the shortage it must be OK.
Damn farmners, who needs them :P
/sarcasm
Factoid:
It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon delivers during combustion. True. Where do the ethanol companies get the energy to produce it from? Fuel oil, coal, natural gas ... you know, fossil fuel. make the beast with two backsing stupidest thing ever. [bang]
Quote from: mmakay on August 05, 2008, 09:58:36 PM
Factoid:
It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethanol than that gallon delivers during combustion. True. Where do the ethanol companies get the energy to produce it from? Fuel oil, coal, natural gas ... you know, fossil fuel. make the beast with two backsing stupidest thing ever. [bang]
I'm no fan of ethanol at all, but everything I've read says this statement is just not true. The articles I've read point to about 30% more out, not the other way around. so 1.3 to 1.4 out for every one in.
but if you have some good sources I'd love to read more.
It depends on if one does a through cost accounting to include ALL the associated cost. Some, but not all considerations are, fertilizer production (fossil), fossil fuel directly used in corn production, transport, alcohol production, waste water etc. etc. And none of the estimates I've seen account for the increase in food products related to the feed of livestock (beef, chicken, etc.) increase in grain prices. Overall, talking to agricultural economists that are friends of mine and everything I have seen, ethanol production from corn to use as fuel for transportation is stupid at best. Brazil has more experience and probably does the best job of alcohol production with sugar cane.
Here are just two estimates that are contradictory.
http://www.energybulletin.net/node/5062
Recently, Patzek published a fifty-page study on the subject in the journal Critical Reviews in Plant Science. This time, he factored in the myriad energy inputs required by industrial agriculture, from the amount of fuel used to produce fertilizers and corn seeds to the transportation and wastewater disposal costs. All told, he believes that the cumulative energy consumed in corn farming and ethanol production is six times greater than what the end product provides your car engine in terms of power.
http://www.ethanol-gec.org/corn_eth.htm
We conclude that the net energy value of corn ethanol has become positive in recent years due to technological advances in ethanol conversion and increased efficiency in farm production. We show that corn ethanol is energy efficient as indicated by an energy ratio of 1.24.
LA
Thanks, LA.
I'm lucky in that my sailboat runs a small outboard with a plastic tank.
I know several folks at the marina who are thousands into repair work and looking into class action similar to one started in CA.
economic stats are difficult. It's like trying to come up with the cost of a Coast Guard rescue for someone stupid who should have to pay back..... if the crew were paid and working anyway, how much can be attributed to the rescue? fuel and wear and tear on the chopper if it weren't scheduled to fly anyway? etc. etc.
I hate the idea for lots of reasons, but I am allways skeptical of the math analysis as the spectrum is sooooo wide on this one.
Quote from: DrNo08 on August 05, 2008, 08:18:19 PM
That link is dead, my friend.
Try this one, and you can download the .pdf from the link on the page:
http://www.msra.com/NonOxygenatedFuel/Non-OxyFuel.htm
Do you live in MN?
We've been running blended fuels in AZ for many, many years... I have a `78 Cadillac that I only take to shows, or when I'm in the mood to drive it during the summer, but that's few and far between, it's fuel injected (a $750.00 option in 1978), I keep it on a battery tender & it has 2 Optima gel cell batteries to power it... Starting it after it's been sitting a couple months really sucks, and I have to replace the fuel filter & fuel filter gasket every year because it gets clogged and the gasket corrodes... So far, I think, most of the other lines and such are still o.k., but I know soon I'm going to have to replace fuel injector o-rings and other stuff... I am going to see if I can find someplace that does non-ethanol fuel for collector cars here, but I doubt there are any in AZ due to environmental concerns... I give ethanol a big thumbs down... But I also give hybrids a big thumbs down too, to produce lith batteries is damaging, and the subsequent "recycling" of them is going to be a environmental issue in the future... There are plenty of turbo-diesels in Europe that get better mileage than a bunch of the hybrid vehicles out there...