riding along in 3rd gear around 40mph, all of a sudden a loud clunk and the motor goes dead... i pull the clutch and coast to a stop... this cannot be good. pushed it home, luckily only a mile from home... i have a feeling it will be a while before i'm riding again...
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0150.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0165.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0160.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0156.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0152.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0151.jpg)
dude...
that sucks. :(
Based on the symptoms and quick glace at the photos I assumed you're f__ked, but it also looks like you still have two belts on the pulleys???
Any details on the belts? How many miles/months? Were you running open covers? Any road debris invovled?
Quote from: bigtime on August 24, 2008, 04:40:06 PM
Based on the symptoms and quick glace at the photos I assumed you're f__ked, but it also looks like you still have two belts on the pulleys???
Any details on the belts? How many miles/months? Were you running open covers? Any road debris invovled?
belts are 2 yrs old... maybe 5k miles. open covers... i assume a pebble kicked up or something, but that's just speculation. yes, horizontal cylinder belt is shredded a bit as you can see, but still on the pulleys. that long strand was sort of wound up in the pulleys, but it came out pretty easily. vertical cylinder belt looks fine...
two glasses of wine, but i don't feel any better yet...
Normally I'd offer you $50 shipped to WA for the bike as is, no questions asked. However, I'm prepared to go up to $65 for this one. Don't ask me why, just one of those crazy days I guess. This is a one-time offer. Don't waste a lot of time fielding advice from forum members. The'll just give you grief.
That can't be good. :-X
Quote from: ducpainter on August 24, 2008, 06:34:22 PM
That can't be good. :-X
The fact that the belt didn't come off could be his savior. If it was able to wrap around the crank pulley enough to cause it to sieze, it might not have did any head damage. I don't if that is possible though.
I assume you didn't try to refire it. :-X Did it sieze up, as in back wheel locked (crank siezed) or did it just cut off (make the beast with two backsed up valves)? Hopefully you didn't bend your crank. [laugh] I would start with taking the plugs out and try to turn the engine by hand to see what it sounds like.
At least it is the most accessible head.
Edit: You're right though DP, that can't be good.
Quote from: Jobu on August 24, 2008, 06:39:50 PM
The fact that the belt didn't come off could be his savior. If it was able to wrap around the crank pulley enough to cause it to sieze, it might not have did any head damage. I don't if that is possible though.
I assume you didn't try to refire it. :-X Did it sieze up, as in back wheel locked (crank siezed) or did it just cut off (make the beast with two backsed up valves)? Hopefully you didn't bend your crank. [laugh] I would start with taking the plugs out and try to turn the engine by hand to see what it sounds like.
At least it is the most accessible head.
It didn't sieze, I kept rolling along (i pulled the clutch and put it in neutral)... i heard the clunk, the motor died, my heart stopped, and i pulled the clutch. So it was moving for a second or so in gear i suppose, but no rear wheel lockup.
Yup, Mark Savory just gave me the same advice... I'm going to pull the plugs tomorrow and turn the engine by hand and take a listen. I'll post up the results...
Thanks for the help.
Reason # 8 why I don't run open belt covers...
Best of luck.. probably can get a good look if you pull the header off too.
Quote from: wbeck257 on August 24, 2008, 06:48:11 PM
Reason # 8 why I don't run open belt covers...
Best of luck.. probably can get a good look if you pull the header off too.
[laugh]
What are the first 7 reasons?
Fook me! O man ... Good luck tomorrow :-\
Shit!
Good news is the belts are still on. Bad news is the bike stalled.
This what I would try:
Cut frayed part from belt.
Remove spark plugs.
Turn over engine by hand and see if the timing marks still line up. Do not use excessive force.
If they do, put new belts on and pray to the Motorcycle Gods.
Make the beast w/ two backs! I'm crossing my fingers for you on this one. Well at least you are not hurt or anything. Seriously, let us know how it goes.
:o
I hope its just what it looks like and you didnt skip a tooth.
im doing hte motogod dance tonight for you man. Your bike is seriously my fav bikes of all the featured bikes (from the DML)
I'm kinda puzzled as to why the bike stalled if the belt is still on the pulleys.
How tightly wound-up was that loose strand of belt?
If it was really bound up, I guess that could be enough to stall the engine, but I'd think that would in turn lock up the rear wheel.
That gives me a sinking feeling that the belt jumped some teeth. :(
Make sure to let us know what you find out after pulling the plugs and turning the mill over by hand.
Based on your description and the picture you really may be lucky, and may have done the right thing.
It's really possibly the belt just jumped a tooth or two. This generally wouldn't result in any internal damage, but would keep the bike from running because valve timing would be off. I also suggest pulling the plugs, and turning the motor over slowly by hand to see if you encounter any interference.
Still sorry to hear about it, keep us informed.
Justin
Quote from: A.duc.H.duc. on August 25, 2008, 04:47:15 AM
Based on your description and the picture you really may be lucky, and may have done the right thing.
It's really possibly the belt just jumped a tooth or two. This generally wouldn't result in any internal damage, but would keep the bike from running because valve timing would be off. I also suggest pulling the plugs, and turning the motor over slowly by hand to see if you encounter any interference.
Still sorry to hear about it, keep us informed.
Justin
I have to disagree.
Two teeth off on a Duc
generally does damage things from the few I've seen.
Quote from: A.duc.H.duc. on August 25, 2008, 04:47:15 AM
Based on your description and the picture you really may be lucky, and may have done the right thing.
It's really possibly the belt just jumped a tooth or two. This generally wouldn't result in any internal damage, but would keep the bike from running because valve timing would be off. I also suggest pulling the plugs, and turning the motor over slowly by hand to see if you encounter any interference.
Still sorry to hear about it, keep us informed.
Justin
We run interference engines so its possible that the piston hit the valve depending on where the piston was at. On non interference engines you can strip belts all day, the pistons arent anywhere near the valves.
Bad news... pulled the plugs, put it in 3rd, moved the rear wheel.... very hard to turn, but it doesn't sound good. turned a bit then stopped dead.
I looked at the forward head, the timing marks don't line up. Uh, that would be bad... how do i know exactly how bad this is?
here's some evidence:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0001.jpg)
http://s249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/?action=view¤t=08-25-08_1229.flv
Ouch, sorry. The thud was all the info you need. Time for exploratory surgury.
I can't remember where the timing marks are, and it's hard to tell on the exhaust cam in the pic.
Is the exhaust cam mark on the head at 4 o'clock or 6 o'clock in the pic?
If it's at 6, you're fine...
If it's 4, then that sucks.
Oh, and where is the timing mark sitting on the drive pulley?
It's visible there, sort of. in the pic above, the mark on the top pulley is at 7 o'clock, the mark on the bottom pulley is at 2 o'clock. on the drive pulley it's also at 2 o'clock.
Quote from: Magnus on August 25, 2008, 10:18:06 AM
It's visible there, sort of. in the pic above, the mark on the top pulley is at 7 o'clock, the mark on the bottom pulley is at 2 o'clock. on the drive pulley it's also at 2 o'clock.
Right, but where is the mark on the head?
On the intake cam, the marks are roughly 7 teeth from lining up.
How many teeth off are the marks on the exhaust cam?
ah, now i understand... please, talk to me like i'm a 4 year old, i don't know jack about this. ;D
the exhaust cam is the lower one, correct? it's also i'd say 7 teeth before the mark on the head.
Quote from: Magnus on August 25, 2008, 10:39:29 AM
ah, now i understand... please, talk to me like i'm a 4 year old, i don't know jack about this. ;D
the exhaust cam is the lower one, correct? it's also i'd say 7 teeth before the mark on the head.
Yeah, the exhaust cam is the bottom one. If the timing marks on the two cams are the same number of teeth away from the timing marks on the head (in the same rotational direction) then that's good.
Now look at the timing mark on the drive pulley and see how many teeth it is away from the timing mark on the motor.
I think it's time to schedule a Dr's appointment for BlackFog and bring him in for an examination and hopefully just minor surgery.
Look at the pulleys as well and see if there is any evidence of rock damage (pits or dents). Something caused the belt to jump and also at the same time cut the belt itself. Usually the evidence can be identified once you look closely.
Exposed belts are definitely cool but sometimes there is this kind of damage that results thereof. I've experienced the same but still run open belts to this day.
Hopefully it's nothing more major than a few bent valves and that the piston / valve guides are ok.
QuoteExposed belts are definitely cool but sometimes there is this kind of damage that results thereof. I've experienced the same but still run open belts to this day.
You must really really like open belts very much.
Magnus, it couldn't hurt to open up your valve covers and take a look.
Quote from: uclabiker06 on August 25, 2008, 12:04:58 PM
Magnus, it couldn't hurt to open up your valve covers and take a look.
Dude... he's already posted pics of his motor with the covers off...
btw, I'm well aware that Duc motors are interference design, I've just not had a belt skip on me, and my general experience has been that one or two teeth has not been enough to cause the interference.
In other words, it would depend on how tight the valve to piston clearence tolerances are.
Quote from: A.duc.H.duc. on August 25, 2008, 01:12:53 PM
Dude... he's already posted pics of his motor with the covers off...
No, he posted a pic with no belt covers. He hasn't taken the valve covers off yet.
Quote from: Rameses on August 25, 2008, 10:57:34 AM
Yeah, the exhaust cam is the bottom one. If the timing marks on the two cams are the same number of teeth away from the timing marks on the head (in the same rotational direction) then that's good.
Now look at the timing mark on the drive pulley and see how many teeth it is away from the timing mark on the motor.
I'm having a hard time locating the timing mark on the motor for the drive pulley. Any hints?
Quote from: MotoCreations on August 25, 2008, 11:46:48 AM
I think it's time to schedule a Dr's appointment for BlackFog and bring him in for an examination and hopefully just minor surgery.
Look at the pulleys as well and see if there is any evidence of rock damage (pits or dents). Something caused the belt to jump and also at the same time cut the belt itself. Usually the evidence can be identified once you look closely.
Exposed belts are definitely cool but sometimes there is this kind of damage that results thereof. I've experienced the same but still run open belts to this day.
Hopefully it's nothing more major than a few bent valves and that the piston / valve guides are ok.
no doubt.... although i'd like to have a clue what the damage is before i bring it somewhere. looking at the pulleys, i haven't located the evidence of any damage yet... i'll give it a more thorough look later. thanks.
Quote from: Magnus on August 25, 2008, 02:57:18 PM
I'm having a hard time locating the timing mark on the motor for the drive pulley. Any hints?
Can you snap a pic of the drive pulley for us?
Not sure why your being told to push the bike to see if it locks up? Pop the valve covers off, take the belt off, turn the cam shaft so the "rockers" are on the bottom lobe (flat side) of the cam. This will be where the valves should be closed if the piston were at top dead center. It doesnt matter where the piston is in its travel at this point. Get an air compressor and and feed air into the cylinder from the spark plug hole. If you feel air comming out of the exhaust pipe or intake (air filter housinging) then you probably have a bent valve. Another way to check if you dont have a compressor is to look at the valve actuators. If there is alot of play between them and the valve, it means the valve isnt seating because its bent.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0002.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg216/mikesixtysix/blackfog/DSCF0010.jpg)
Unfortunately, that notch on the side of the black side cover is the timing mark, which is 9 teeth off from the timing mark on the pulley.
Sorry man. :(
yup, i see it... hard to get happy after that one.
thanks for the help, though...
Quote from: Magnus on August 25, 2008, 04:02:22 PM
yup, i see it... hard to get happy after that one.
thanks for the help, though...
No problem.
I was really hoping that one was going to line up too though. :(
Once there is an audible clunk and no more movement timing marks become irrelevant. Mangus, you could probably save some money and maybe hassle by removing the head yourself. If there is no piston damage take the head to Country Joe at Trebour or Steve at ECS for repair, then replace.
That sucks man. Good luck.
this will be in the capable hands of ECS shortly...
Quote from: Magnus on August 26, 2008, 08:16:31 AM
this will be in the capable hands of ECS shortly...
Glad you hooked up Mike.
I'd gues about a 90% chance to smacked a valve & have no compression in that cylinder. Verify it as mentioned above & then pull the head & have someone lap in some new valves. Smooth out any sharp edges in the piston & you'll be fine.
Saw BlackFog in person yesterday getting some love. Hope it's all sorted out soon. [thumbsup]
Quote from: EvilSteve on August 30, 2008, 08:08:24 AM
Saw BlackFog in person yesterday getting some love. Hope it's all sorted out soon. [thumbsup]
yup! got my fingers crossed on the diagnosis!
time for a 1098 motor swap :)
[popcorn]
dude, that really is shotty, now sell me your boomtubes.
Quote from: Bbrent on August 31, 2008, 04:25:41 AM
dude, that really is shotty, now sell me your boomtubes.
[laugh]
I don't think he is gonna part the bike out over a bent valve (if that's what it turns out to be).
Quote from: Jobu on August 31, 2008, 07:45:52 PM
[laugh]
I don't think he is gonna part the bike out over a bent valve (if that's what it turns out to be).
yeah man, even if the motor was completely toast i'd just drop another one in...
Quote from: Jobu on August 31, 2008, 07:45:52 PM
[laugh]
I don't think he is gonna part the bike out over a bent valve (if that's what it turns out to be).
Most likely, since it appears to be the drive pulley that jumped the teeth, it's 4 bent valves. :-\
But still... parting it out would be retarded.
Update from Steve at ECS...
Two bent exhaust valves on the forward cylinder, that's it. No valve guide damage, no piston damage. Phew! He's doing some other work on the bike for me as well, minor issues that I've been unable to fix myself.
Hopefully I'll be riding again soon...
Quote from: Magnus on September 03, 2008, 10:07:36 AM
Update from Steve at ECS...
Two bent exhaust valves on the forward cylinder, that's it. No valve guide damage, no piston damage. Phew! He's doing some other work on the bike for me as well, minor issues that I've been unable to fix myself.
Hopefully I'll be riding again soon...
Wow, that's really good news.
That's probably about the best scenario possible.
Not bad, considering. So, how long is the bike going to be in the hospital?
Quote from: howie on September 03, 2008, 12:50:34 PM
Not bad, considering. So, how long is the bike going to be in the hospital?
Absolutely! I was afraid it would be alot worse...
I should have an answer to that tomorrow... some clutch work also being done, and perhaps a session on the dyno.
Are you going to put the belt covers back on :)
Quote from: Capo on September 03, 2008, 02:49:00 PM
Are you going to put the belt covers back on :)
Ah, that's the question, isn't it? I think so, I don't want to go through this again. I dug out the original Foggy carbon belt covers... I would prefer something minimal, maybe I can cut windows in them and use screens or something, a compromise. Nevertheless they will have to be painted...
It sounds like it will be a few weeks minimum, have to wait for engine parts to arrive...
Quote from: Magnus on September 03, 2008, 03:11:52 PM
Ah, that's the question, isn't it? I think so, I don't want to go through this again. I dug out the original Foggy carbon belt covers... I would prefer something minimal, maybe I can cut windows in them and use screens or something, a compromise. Nevertheless they will have to be painted...
It sounds like it will be a few weeks minimum, have to wait for engine parts to arrive...
I think Rizoma makes ones with a clear window in them. FYI, in case you feel like going the more expensive, less time-consuming route!
Quote from: Evil_Ductator on September 03, 2008, 04:12:12 PM
I think Rizoma makes ones with a clear window in them. FYI, in case you feel like going the more expensive, less time-consuming route!
thanks, yeah i saw those... $500, and not sure they match the bike that well. plus it's a pain to keep the lenses clean. i'll try messing with the stock covers and see how that turns out.
Hopefully you can get the bike back in time to not miss the rest of the riding season....
Quote from: NAKID on September 03, 2008, 05:33:44 PM
Hopefully you can get the bike back in time to not miss the rest of the riding season....
that would be nice... unfortunately the past two weeks have been just about the nicest weather wise all year in these parts... [bang]
glad to hear the motor's ok... [thumbsup]
riding season? what's that? :D
Quote from: teddy037.2 on September 04, 2008, 01:14:20 AM
glad to hear the motor's ok... [thumbsup]
riding season? what's that? :D
It lasts from January 1st to December 31st.
for you pineapple eating assholes anyway :P
Quote from: Jobu on September 04, 2008, 12:52:53 PM
for you pineapple eating assholes anyway :P
bahahahahahahahaaaaaa...
no tracks, though. so that's pretty lame.
The bike is back in my garage. Steve at European Cycle Services did a fantastic job, sticking to both the estimate and the delivery date. In addition to the valve/belt fix, ECS did a full service, valve adjustment, plugs, fluids, etc. Also, the fast idle linkage was missing, so Steve suggested going with a Superbike throttle which has the integrated fast idle button. Works like a charm!
I've had problems with the clutch from the get go, which is probably due to the parts selection that I made. Replaced it all with a Ducati basket and aluminum clutch pack, works alot better. Throttle bodies were adjusted which is really noticeable, much smoother now. I swapped out the injectors last year on my own, so it was due.
Steve went over the whole bike and found a few issues, including loose steering head bearings, loose/strip bolts, and the clip ons were aligned incorrectly. I try to do things myself, but I guess I'm a little sloppy...
Finally, when I picked it up today, Steve tuned the suspension for me. The drive home, in the rain, was awesome... much improved suspension feel and it runs like a charm.
I would highly recommend this shop, very skilled, professional, and friendly! FYI: When I first called him, he offered to pick the bike up, and since he was already dropping off another one in the area, he didn't charge me for the service. Middletown, NY is about an hour and 15 mins from me.
http://www.europeancycleservices.com/
Great to hear you are back on the road again and happy with ECS.
I'm glad you got it fixed up with only 2 bent valves and nothing else major. I have belts about 2 years old and about 5K miles so I guess it is time to take the covers off and inspect/replace belts. I have a question, from the close-ups it looks like your overflow/recovery tank is black. How did you color/dye/paint it? thanks, Bill
Quote from: Bill in OKC on September 27, 2008, 11:56:47 PM
overflow/recovery tank is black. How did you color/dye/paint it?
The fill line area is still "exposed" to check coolant level. (taped off) Rest was primed and painted. A white tank would have been ugly on this bike. More details abound -- you are the first to mention seeing this one!
Magnus, congrats on getting the bike back! also, you mention a Superbike throttle w/ integrated fast idle, any more details on that? is it electronic? what year/model Superbike? does it require electrical splicing? Again, Congrats!
Quote from: DucatiBastard on September 28, 2008, 01:26:46 PM
Magnus, congrats on getting the bike back! also, you mention a Superbike throttle w/ integrated fast idle, any more details on that? is it electronic? what year/model Superbike? does it require electrical splicing? Again, Congrats!
Thanks!
It's not electronic, just a spring loaded toggle from what I can see... you press a small button on the underside of the throttle housing that just holds the throttle open a bit. Twisting the throttle will release the toggle. Here's the part no.:
DUCA65420021A THROTTLE CONTROL 113.95
Thanks!
That's great news!
I'm glad your experience with the shop was a good one. [thumbsup]
Glad to hear there was less damage than expected! [thumbsup]
Re Belt covers; I've replaced the stock ones with carbon; (or does your bike come stock with carbon?) I did consider some with slats cut in the side giving a louvered look and that exposed look, you may be able to do this easily with the stock covers. I decided its better to keep the dust and pebbles away form the critical components ... cheers D
Glad to hear that you got your problems sorted out. [thumbsup]
I have heard nothing but great things about ECS.
Now you can get some [moto] before winter.
Thanks, definately good to get some seat time before the weather turns on us!
I was going to slot or window the belt covers on my own, but instead Mark Savory has them now and is doing something unique, which is what he does best...
Quote from: Magnus on September 30, 2008, 05:16:58 PM
Thanks, definately good to get some seat time before the weather turns on us!
I was going to slot or window the belt covers on my own, but instead Mark Savory has them now and is doing something unique, which is what he does best...
:'(
I woulda painted 'em.... [laugh]
Quote from: ducpainter on September 30, 2008, 05:28:06 PM
:'(
I woulda painted 'em.... [laugh]
who said i'm not going to ask you to paint 'em when they're done?? there will be no exposed carbon on this bike!
Quote from: Magnus on September 30, 2008, 05:31:18 PM
who said i'm not going to ask you to paint 'em when they're done?? there will be no exposed carbon on this bike!
Nate -- they are probably headed towards yourself next. A few slots/screens and holes for rivets added. Then Magnus can assemble -- I'll make him a bucking tool to buck the rivets properly. These belt covers don't look like anything anyone has ever done before. We are doing something similiar to what we did for the Pebble Beach winning Alfa 8C2900 this year... just wait and see.
oooohhhh now I'm really interested in what those are going to look like!
Quote from: Magnus on September 30, 2008, 05:31:18 PM
who said i'm not going to ask you to paint 'em when they're done?? there will be no exposed carbon on this bike!
Quote from: MotoCreations on September 30, 2008, 05:46:57 PM
Nate -- they are probably headed towards yourself next. A few slots/screens and holes for rivets added. Then Magnus can assemble -- I'll make him a bucking tool to buck the rivets properly. These belt covers don't look like anything anyone has ever done before. We are doing something similiar to what we did for the Pebble Beach winning Alfa 8C2900 this year... just wait and see.
I'm looking forward to it. [thumbsup]