My review of the eBay knock-off adjustable levers

[thought]

Show me a Chinese (or wherever) company with a great original design, or a license on the design, or a design that doesn't need to be licensed and I'll beat a path to their door.

hmmm... but what about like... a afamm 14t front sprocket for about $30 vs a dp 14t front sprocket for $70?  literally the same part, machined out of the same metal, and ducati did all the work designing the part and i'm pretty sure that afamm isnt paying them any license fees for it.  and in truth, prob the same complexity of construction as the levers.

or how about any cf part that didnt come directly from ducati?  even if it is better and cheaper and still from a solid brand... just another knockoff?

[xplodee]

I'm out of the conversation from here on in about whether or not it's "worth it," as we've already agreed that it's a personal preference. However I gotta respond to poster "thought's" comments above:

hmmm... but what about like... a afamm 14t front sprocket for about $30 vs a dp 14t front sprocket for $70?  literally the same part, machined out of the same metal, and ducati did all the work designing the part and i'm pretty sure that afamm isnt paying them any license fees for it.  and in truth, prob the same complexity of construction as the levers.

Drawing this analogy suggests that you've never actually inspected one of these levers before, at least in detail, whether it be an import or a US one and that you're not very well versed in manufacturing. The reality is that these levers are actually not a simple design, they're quite complex. Believe it or not, there are eight (EIGHT!) unique machined components within each lever, plus approximately eleven pieces of hardware. Each unique component has it's own set of critical geometries contributing to or detracting from the final fit, finish and feel of the completed assembly. That these Asian OEM's are able to manufacture and sell this product for ~$60 is quite a feat, but I've seen it before when there's no state-side distribution or customer support.

Regarding your analogy, "a sprocket is a sprocket," my response is that a sprocket is a commodity part (just like a NORMAL lever would be) and is not proprietary to any one person or manufacturer. It's a stamped piece of metal, one where the material grade matters, but all countries have been manufacturing sprockets for decades if not centuries. Comparing a sprocket to an 8-piece machined assembly doesn't really work.

Back to the lever, somebody smart came up with a novel design for a an adjustable and precision lever. Who ever it was I don't know nor do I pretend to. We all assume it was an American, who knows who actually came up with it. I have never seen an actual patent number referenced from ANY manufacturer of these levers, and legally, if you have a patent then you have to disclose that either on the original packaging of the product or on the product itself. A patent would be the only legal protection that any inventor has of their proprietary design. Ethics just doesn't apply most of the time in manufacturing. You can't receive a licence fee if you don't have a patent!

or how about any cf part that didnt come directly from ducati?  even if it is better and cheaper and still from a solid brand... just another knockoff?

Again, this analogy doesn't make sense. Carbon fiber is nothing more than a material. Anyone can make a carbon fiber body part for a bike, there's nothing proprietary about that either (unlike the design of our levers), but the difference between a good carbon fiber body piece and a bad one is still about QUALITY. DP makes some nice CF pieces, the imports generally are not as nice, again from my personal experience (I've returned a lot of carbon fiber parts). Whether or not you want to buy the import comes down to personal preference, priorities, attention to detail, and appreciation for manufacturing.

Now, if someone wanted to make a rip-off of the new carbon fiber structural subframe for the 696/796/1100 models that Belissimoto is selling, that would definitely be a copy of someone's unique hard work. It took engineering to make that carbon fiber subframe structurally sound. I wouldn't trust ANY other company to copy it safely.

[thought]

hmmm... so...

oe knockoff of adjustable levers = ok (and by this i mean levers like the oe 796 ones which are adjustable)

non oe knockoff of adjustable lever = not ok?

and yeah, not that read up on auto parts manufacturing, but my family business is in jewelry design/manufacturing which is more by hand than machine.  so we've had more than our fair share of knock off's of our designs etc... so i understand pain of design theft (tiffany even stole one of our designs before which was annoying...  because they jacked the markup way way higher than ours) and production tolerances.  and if you think the tolerances are tight for a lever, imagine trying to design/manufacture a link and clasp made out of 24k gold that is strong enough to hold up to daily use, but also needs to be cheap and fast to manufacture, looks good, allows the necklace to lay flat on the neck, and isn't ridiculously heavy.  but you're right in the fact that i've never taken apart one of the levers.

also, one point that you just assume is that because it's cheaper, it means that it's not as good and that asian manufacturing in no way can compare to the pazzo etc quality.  but i'm sure you know that as the process gets older, you get better at it... and these have been made for quite a while now.  the difference is that we have to judge the quality of the levers by the ebay seller as opposed to the name brand.  which basically makes the ebay seller the name brand.

my point was more of a "if someone makes basically the same part cheaper, what's the diff?", though i do understand drunken's point about a moral standpoint and i respect that.  but right now for the quality argument, based on reviews, there is little to no diff btwn the copies in question and the crg/pazzo ones.  and cnc machining isn't super demanding compared to other methods.  so in end, based on the current copy levers in question, they are basically the same... and only the name brand separates the two different levers.  "feel" is a totally personal decision however and cant really be counted imo... because it will change person to person.

right now, xplodee, you're arguing more about semantics than anything else when it comes to the commodity product vs non commodity.  the only real commodity in this equation is the metal they cut it out of.  any manufactured good is not a commodity because they all go through the same basic process.  quality control differs of course, but then you make the choice, like you said, based on quality and history.  and every company, no matter what they make, does not have a 100% perfect record of quality control.  i bring in the cf/sprocket manufacturing in because there are a lot of equivalent products being made, some cheaper and better, some more expensive but worse.  and i'm sure that if you told whoever is currently making those parts that what they are making doesnt count as a product because "its just a fiber" or "a lot of other people make it"... they will then tell you about the issues about laying the weave correctly and a whole lot more about the curing for the cf, and then repeat to you what you said to me in your last post for the sprockets.  but you just assume that the quality is worse in the cheaper chinese version because it's cheaper.

and also... you make a point about saying that you havent seen any lever have a patent yet... yet you say that the levers are a proprietary design?  if it doesnt have a patent, and if it can be made to the same level of quality as the "originals"... doesnt that make the levers a "commodity" product in your definition?

in the end, like you said, it just comes down to personal preference and, and here's the big one, perception.  people perceive that the more expensive product is better.  sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, but biggest example that you should look at here was the decline of american cars vs rise of japanese cars.  all the arguments made by you are the same that were made of asian manufacture back then... cheaper, lack of quality, etc etc... but in time, they got better... and still cheaper.

[Artful]

[thought]

yeah, i figured it was getting there right before i hit post >.<  haha

[xplodee]

No, I think we're all being pretty civil. I appreciate 'thought's' points and don't disagree all that much.

To clarify some valid points that thought brought up, use of the word commodity was probably a poor choice, to use thought's own words, let's call a sprocket a well used part that has stood the test of time and is mass produced by all manufacturers in one form or another, perhaps similar to a common type of chain used in thought's jewelry market.

The lever however is more of a creative invention, such as thought's unique design that was ripped off by Tiffany's. In the case of the lever, it's still correct to refer to it as proprietary even though it may not have a patent. This is not a conflicting statement. Someone came up with the novel lever design. I sure don't know who. Over time the quality may improve from the eBay vendor I bought my lever from (mlabel) and certainly already has since past versions. However I think it's likely reached the point for this lever where most people are fine with the quality but I'm not. To each his own.

Anyway, my point is it's not an appropriate anology to compare the lever to the sprocket, pretty sure thought and I both agree on that now.

We've all said our thoughts and will keep doing so, that's what makes forums like this fun. My thought is I wouldn't buy these levers again bc I'm not happy with the quality, I don't have a position on the origin of manufacture topic and right/wrong of it (I've made it clear that I'm not for or against it). However i do enjoy debating this stuff because I'm in the manufacturing/IP/quality industry. doesn't mean we should let this get locked.

[Monster Dave]

[NFJ79]

I hope this thread stays open.  Want more people to post up their reviews on the Ebay adjustable levers.

[bikepilot]

I'm not especially in the market for levers (thanks to Mad Duc 20/20 ) but sure wouldn't mind knowing which ones are good and which ones aren't.  Maybe a list of sellers with quality levers (other than the big names like CRG etc of course) could be useful.

Also maybe of note, the stock levers have glue over the adjusting screw, but the glue isn't needed to keep it from moving.  There's a flat on the screw and a metal tab that keeps pressure on the flat so its like a detent system.  Chip the glue away and you've got adjustable levers (though not as adjustable as CRGs or similar of course).

[Some Dude]

I bought a pair from HKDPro on ebay and I am very impressed with the Fit and quality.

Link

[Drunken Monkey]

In before the...

Oh wait, I'm a Moderator 

I appreciate the civil, thoughtful responses on this thread. If anything the only one being pedantic and hard-headed is me. But that's because I'm old and completely right 

So no need to lock this unless someone gets racist or personal or blames the Bull Moose party or some other nonsense.

In other news, I am a hypocrite since I hope to use a 3d scanner later next month to build a modified version of a Rizoma part. It's for personal use, so the level of theft is small.

But it's still theft.

Maybe if I throw away the Rizoma part afterward my Karmic balance will be neutral.

[Punx Clever]

In before the...

Oh wait, I'm a Moderator 

I appreciate the civil, thoughtful responses on this thread. If anything the only one being pedantic and hard-headed is me. But that's because I'm old and completely right 

So no need to lock this unless someone gets racist or personal or blames the Bull Moose party or some other nonsense.

In other news, I am a hypocrite since I hope to use a 3d scanner later next month to build a modified version of a Rizoma part. It's for personal use, so the level of theft is small.

But it's still theft.

Maybe if I throw away the Rizoma part afterward my Karmic balance will be neutral.

What you are talking about isn't "theft" at all.  1) Because it simply isn't.  2) Because it's just for you and you are making it.  3) It's not a direct copy, it's improved (at least to you).

Lets take Motus for example... the guys who put together the V-4 sport touring prototype and plan to produce.  They readily admit that their engine design is based on the GM LS engines.  Sure, they tweaked it to be a V-4 (my grandma's SUV does that with software, so no biggy) but at it's heart it's a half of a GM LS engine.  Is that theft?

[Monster Dave]

Maybe if I throw away the Rizoma part afterward my Karmic balance will be neutral.

Doubtful, you said it yourself - you're old and completly right....LOL....so you're already totally off balance!! 

...ironically I work with a guy just like you!! 


On a serious note, it's really cool that you're going to try and make your own. Coming from someone with little engineering know-how, I find that to be very impressive challenge and task to undertake!

Good luck with that and let us know how it turns out!

[ducanarchy]

Theft is only possible in the realm of property rights.  This is a simple concept to understand when someone steals your sandwich, but it gets confused when the concept is applied to ideas.  How can one own an idea?  Patent or not.  Once  a person relinquishes control over an idea (i.e. talk, design, produce) it then becomes the property of those who encounter it, and therefore they may do with it what they please.  By the way nearly ALL "original" ideas are NOT original.

[Drunken Monkey]

^^^ Given that I have made my living off many types of "non-tangible" property (Music, engineering designs, software) I couldn't disagree more.

The fact is patents (and copyrights) aren't forever and (in theory) the legal process around these things does allow for ownership of these 'intangible' things to eventually end up in the public domain.

I say "in theory" because despite the fact that Walt Disney is long dead, the likeness of Mickey mouse is still 'private' property (despite the fact that ol' Walt made billions off fairy tales that were in the public domain...)