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Another no-Monster build thread

Started by MonsterHPD, October 16, 2016, 01:24:38 PM

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MonsterHPD

#45
December 04, 2016, 01:45:30 PM Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 01:52:18 PM by MonsterHPD
Speeddog, I will. I have most of the info somewhere, just have to find it.

Anyway, jumping back and forth a bit, back to the gearbox.
Apart from the oil left in the motor (bought from a car breaker), everything looks almost like new, the gearbox could have been new, pistons look like they have just been run in ..... so I decided to keep all the bearings unless I find something contradictory later on.

Theoretically, since I keep everyting, the shimming should be OK, on the other side, you never know what Luigi might have been up to when assembling the engine, so better safe than sorry. Checking end float is no big deal, provided some basic tools are available: Dial gauge, magnetic foot, and a substantial, flat steel bar.

You have to start sommewhere ....

20161201_205733 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Checking end float could be done like this ....
20161204_170737 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

It´s convenient to use the appropriate nut since you need something to take hold on when levering the shaft up and down in order to establish the end float:
20161204_173714 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

As it turned out, all the end floats were in the middle of the respective range, but the workshop manual recommends shift drum end float to be at the top of the range, and shaft end float to be at the lower end so some re-shimming will have to be done.

Furthermore, the manual says that the "middle gear" on the input shaft should be placed so that the clearande between the dogs of the neighbouring gears should be equal:

Dogavstånd by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

That will be next, have not checked that yet. I also need this to rest a little, memories from last time are re-appearing, but not very quicly .... [roll]   
         
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

MonsterHPD

#46
December 06, 2016, 01:58:33 PM Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 02:00:18 PM by MonsterHPD
Looking at the components, it´s obvious Ducati has spent some effort on the compont engineering.

While grinding shims for the gearbox, I noticed a slight difference on the shift drums:

"Other" Duc:

20161206_203711 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Hym 1100:

20161206_203657 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Quite nice weight saving on such a component. More holes, and a bigger inner diameter to save weight.

On this gear, the "female dogs" are 2-stage: Presumably, the oblong part presentd a bigger target for the opposing, male dogs to when the gear is moved sideways during shifting, then the male dog slides into the curcular opening, minimizing drivetrain lash.  I have not analyzed the gearbox so I know how many gears this gear is locked to the next, but the lash reduction should be quite noticeable.  

20161023_180212 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

MonsterHPD

#47
December 12, 2016, 11:10:20 AM Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 11:14:13 AM by MonsterHPD
Again, jumping back and forth in time a bit, this summer really was a bit of ups and downs as far as this bike was concerned: First I did not manage to get the bike ready in time for the track day season, then, when it was almost in rideable condition I almost burnt it up. Eventually, it did get to track and worked quite OK for 4 straight track days, but overnight to the 5th day it developed a quite bad misfire which ruined 3 days on track. Well,not on it´s own, rain too bad even for the rain bike did it´s bit.

20160805_111935 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Trying a second W-M ECU brought no solution, so in the end I had to resort to (expensive) parts swapping: A new pump module offered at a fair price (but still pricy!), and a Microtec ECU:

20161202_191927 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

As far as the ECu was concerned, maybe this was the excuse I needed, I was pretty fed up with the hassle of having the stock ECU re-programmed on a hunch and not really going anywhere. With the Microtec, solving that incredibly lean running at low revs was easily cured. It´s a wonderful piece of kit, and very easy to work with.

Everything was dandy again until another trackday or two, when I started noticing the slipper clutch relly slipping, both ways. Lending the bike to an experienced 999 pilot didn´t help, and for the second time this season I had a bike that emitted smoke even though the engine was not running. Took about 5 minutes until it finally stopped, and the clutch did not look promising:

20160915_210125 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

A was a bit fed up with that, so I only took it apart the other day, and I was, and still am, a bit confused by what I found, and what I did not find: I had expected to find some oil causing the slippage, but the clutch is completely dry.

Pressure plate and 1st friction disc are pretty worn:

20161212_192753 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

20161210_182732 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Most steel discs look pretty unused:

20161210_182558 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

A few look really worn:

20161210_182639 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

It looks like spring pressure did not get through to the whole disc pack, which I can´t really understand. And, if the clutchs slips, all discs slips so it should all be worn .....
It seemed to work OK as a clutch, riding in an out of the pits forked fine, shifts worked fine.

The hub centre and outer basket aren´t like new but nowhere nearly as badly worn as the other STM I´ve used for years on the Monster900. Disk pack height is also within recommended limits.

Well, any suggestions are welcome, I´ll think a while before next action with the clutch.            
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

Speeddog

#48
December 12, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
I think you're on the right track, seems a friction or a steel is hanging up on the basket or hub.

I've had no experience with Evoluzione slippers.

The few I've worked on were coil spring type, so they require a steel up against the pressure plate.
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

MonsterHPD

#49
December 12, 2016, 12:55:23 PM Last Edit: December 12, 2016, 01:10:12 PM by MonsterHPD
Quote from: Speeddog on December 12, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
I think you're on the right track, seems a friction or a steel is hanging up on the basket or hub.

I've had no experience with Evoluzione slippers.

The few I've worked on were coil spring type, so they require a steel up against the pressure plate.

I will check the STM instructions, I suspect I may have gotten that wrong this time.

EDIT: Found it .... should´ve been a steel disc next to the pressure plate. Just because you´ve done it before does not mean you do it right next time if your mind is elsewhere ....  [bang]
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

MonsterHPD

#50
December 15, 2016, 12:44:09 PM
What a difference 0.2 mm makes ... :)

20161215_212731 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

Speeddog

#51
December 15, 2016, 03:32:43 PM
Much better!
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

MonsterHPD

#52
December 21, 2016, 01:41:57 PM
I think that will have to do, after some further tidying-up; oil cooler bracket.3

20161221_210802 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr 
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

koko64

#53
December 22, 2016, 02:31:44 PM
0.3  ;D
That's a fair bit of cooling surface there. [thumbsup]
2015 Scrambler 800

MonsterHPD

#54
January 05, 2017, 02:18:51 PM
Not much action over Christmas Holidays, and a belated Merry Chriatmas to everyone :-)

I did take one cylinder head apart, I wanted to check on the camshafts since I´ve heard somewhere that not all 2V plain bearing cams are alike. It seems my stock and Duc perf cams are compatible:

20170105_185246 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

It also seems that with the big 2V motors, the stock half ring set up is beyond it´s limits ...

20170105_190732 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

It´s a good thing that Mike Guidera decided to design his MBP retainers; another order is on it´s way.
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

Duck-Stew

#55
January 06, 2017, 03:55:13 PM
There's some model-year distinction in those cams.  Something about the snout where the pulley drives it being longer or shorter or something like that.  Someone will chime in I'm sure and give relevant details.
Bike-less Portuguese immigrant enjoying life.

Speeddog

#56
January 06, 2017, 07:57:58 PM
Quote from: Duck-Stew on January 06, 2017, 03:55:13 PM
There's some model-year distinction in those cams.  Something about the snout where the pulley drives it being longer or shorter or something like that.  Someone will chime in I'm sure and give relevant details.

Brad says there's two styles of left hand end, thin and thick, with corresponding end caps.
Note #8, 2V cams in : http://bikeboy.org/duccamspec.html

I do have some recollection of different lengths on the snout for the pulley, but can't remember what or where.

I've seen a lot of broken half rings on DS1000 motors, usually the intakes.
I put it down to heavier heads, as they're larger.
I suspect the loose guides that are common don't help.
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

MonsterHPD

#57
January 07, 2017, 01:21:37 PM Last Edit: January 08, 2017, 02:55:03 AM by MonsterHPD
Thanks fpr the tips.
I´ve checked the cams, the lenghts are all the same, but my stock cams have LH bearings 8 mm wide, the DP cams are 9 mm. Since the end caps are not just flat o the surface facing the cam bearing, it´s not just a matter of turning them down 1 mm. I think, saturday night and all.
 
Maybe simplest to get the corresponding end caps ....

...... or take another look tomorrow. If the cams are really the same length, and the bearing is wider, it seems it be wider inwards, not outwards ..... which would be OK, maybe?

Edit sunday morning:

I´ve checked both cams in a cylinder head, and they appear to be compatible.

"Flange depht" on the LH side is the same:
20170108_113919 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

"Protrusion length" on the RH is same:
20170108_114236 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

Should be OK, I think  :)
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

MonsterHPD

#58
January 26, 2017, 02:01:43 PM
A bit of a lull in activities right now, waiting for the crank to come back from the balancers.

As for the cams, with the help of my  Duc club friend and fellow forum member HNRacing, it seems that the cams differ in the distance between the axial bearing distance:

IMG_1199 by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr

This distance is either 56 mm or 58 mm; mine are both 58 mm, so no problem there  :)

This NCR info might also be of interest:

NCR Cam Spec by torbjörn bergström, on Flickr       
Monster 900-2002 (sold, alive and well in the UK), 749R / 1100 HYM combo for track days, wifes / my Monster Dark 800-2003 (not entirely "Dark" anymore and a personal favourite) , 50% of 900SSie -2000 track bike for rainy days-now with tuned ST2 motor and Microtec ECU. Also parked due to having been T-boned on track.

koko64

#59
February 16, 2017, 03:04:22 AM
 [popcorn]
How's it going?
2015 Scrambler 800
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