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Monsterlover rejoins the fold

Started by Monsterlover, August 20, 2020, 05:01:00 PM

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Monsterlover

#180
September 22, 2020, 03:52:27 AM
I don't think so, no. So that would point to things being too tight.

However, I have similar measurements on the front cylinder closers and that cam flys around with zero drag. So that might point to something else.

:P
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

ducpainter

#181
September 22, 2020, 12:55:25 PM
Quote from: Monsterlover on September 22, 2020, 03:52:27 AM
I don't think so, no. So that would point to things being too tight.

However, I have similar measurements on the front cylinder closers and that cam flys around with zero drag. So that might point to something else.

:P
Every time I think, I swear I'll never do it again. ;D

If you're uncomfortable with the drag, reset the closers and see if the drag goes away. I wouldn't jump right to .003. I'd go .001 at a time, 1 valve at a time to see if you can isolate the issue.
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent.”


Speeddog

#182
September 22, 2020, 04:57:52 PM
Try to isolate which valve it is and debug that.

The shims and half rings are not perfect, rocker faces and such not maybe perfectly perpendicular and lotta stackup.
Brand new 7mm half rings have squashed ends from the cutting and need to be deburred.
Shims and valve stems wear.
Spin the closer shim relative to the valve and see if you can find tight spots

If you're using 'measuring opener clearance then pushing the closer down and re-measuring'....
the measuring increments of 0.001" and measurement error starts to fuxxor the numbers when you get close to zero.
You can try '0.004" fits thru with this feel of slip on the feeler, so I'll push down on the closer rocker and try to get a 0.005" to slide the same'

Sometimes it's that old move 50% less each step you take and you never get there.
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

Monsterlover

#183
September 22, 2020, 05:18:01 PM
Quote from: Speeddog on September 22, 2020, 04:57:52 PM
Try to isolate which valve it is and debug that.

It's both

QuoteThe shims and half rings are not perfect, rocker faces and such not maybe perfectly perpendicular and lotta stackup.
Brand new 7mm half rings have squashed ends from the cutting and need to be deburred.
Shims and valve stems wear.
Spin the closer shim relative to the valve and see if you can find tight spots

Noted!

Quote-snip-
You can try '0.004" fits thru with this feel of slip on the feeler, so I'll push down on the closer rocker and try to get a 0.005" to slide the same'
This is exactly how I did it. I looked for the same feel with larger feeler gages while keeping pressure on the closing rocker.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Speeddog

#184
September 22, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
It is possible to push down on the closer rocker hard enough to 'spring' it and make more clearance.
You only need to push hard enough to overcome the closer spring.

It's possible to get carbon sitting on the seat/valve face that fuxxors with the measurements.
Sometimes the seating of the shims/halfrings is a little sticky.
Rotate the cam with the opener rocker off so you can push the valve open a good bit and let it snap closed a couple times and see if there's a bit of swarf spoiling the party

Worn valves and seats they don't sit the same every time

When pushing on the closer rocker try to avoid the tool slipping off and shanking the valve stem or seal
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

Monsterlover

#185
September 23, 2020, 06:10:58 PM
I'm on the right track. I pulled both exhaust closers from the rear cylinder and worked on them.

The intake closer had drag so I ground .0005-.0008 of off it and reinstalled. No drag and .0005+ on clearance.

Had to break out the Norton stone kit. .004 increments just aren't enough.


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"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Speeddog

#186
September 23, 2020, 08:13:06 PM
Dude WTF you're missing like 5 stones.
















[laugh]
I've got a tiny collection of stones sitting in a drawer and it's surely a sin of some sort.

That setup is like gold wrapped in bacon I never knew such a thing existed.
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

Monsterlover

#187
September 23, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
[laugh]

Those five are lost to the ages. Seemed like a better method than sand paper.

A few drops of motor oil then make circles. Rotate the shim a little then more circles.

Check progress with mics or calipers. I had some that ended up being maybe a few tenths out of flat but was able to mostly fix that with a sharpie and strategic stoning on half the shim.

I don't know if it even matters. The oem ones aren't flat either. They're out more than a few tenths.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

koko64

#188
September 23, 2020, 10:09:23 PM
A good effort to get that bee's dick of clearance to get them spot on. [thumbsup]
2015 Scrambler 800

koko64

#189
September 23, 2020, 10:30:50 PM Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 10:32:33 PM by koko64
Quote from: Speeddog on September 22, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
It is possible to push down on the closer rocker hard enough to 'spring' it and make more clearance.
You only need to push hard enough to overcome the closer .

This^, it's about feel. The same goes for feeling for drag on the cam base circle. The cam roller bearings in the old motors spin different to the cam plain bearings in the new motors imo, so drag feels different.
2015 Scrambler 800

Speeddog

#190
September 23, 2020, 11:01:11 PM
I'm trying to remember if i ever took too much off a whole shim face by hand. nope.
The 7mm stuff is right on the edge of awkward for fingers in general.
Not sure what the V4 have but there are lots of them.

They seem to work OK if they're out a few tenths.
Everything floats around on oil and if we saw slo-mo at 9krpm it'd be like diving boards and fish flapping around I bet.

Feel, yeah, first time I turned the crank on a single phase motor was a big "Uh oh" about nothing.

Mike's EMS shims were very nice, hopefully the quality can be retained.
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~

ducpainter

#191
September 24, 2020, 04:15:03 AM
Quote from: Monsterlover on September 23, 2020, 08:29:28 PM
[laugh]

Those five are lost to the ages. Seemed like a better method than sand paper.

A few drops of motor oil then make circles. Rotate the shim a little then more circles.

Check progress with mics or calipers. I had some that ended up being maybe a few tenths out of flat but was able to mostly fix that with a sharpie and strategic stoning on half the shim.

I don't know if it even matters. The oem ones aren't flat either. They're out more than a few tenths.
I get better results with figure 8's when trying to retain flatness. Those stones are a little small to do that, I guess.
"Once you accept that a child on the autistic spectrum experiences the world in
a completely different way than you, you will be open to understand how that
 perspective
    is even more amazing than yours."
    To realize the value of nine  months:
    Ask a mother who gave birth to a stillborn.
"Don't piss off old people The older we get, the less 'Life in Prison' is a deterrent.”


Monsterlover

#192
September 24, 2020, 05:06:22 AM
Quote from: ducpainter on September 24, 2020, 04:15:03 AM
I get better results with figure 8's when trying to retain flatness. Those stones are a little small to do that, I guess.

It can be done but it slowed things down too much. I'm good with circles, measuring the shim and fixing the high spots.
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Monsterlover

#193
September 24, 2020, 03:56:24 PM
Ok, here's where the valve adjustment sits. I just finished working on the last two closers. I have pretty tight closer clearances and no cam drag at all on either cylinder.

Front cylinder-
Intake open .005
Intake close .000+
Exhaust open .005
Exhaust close .0005 or .000+

Rear cylinder-
Intake open .004
Intake close .000+ or .0005
Exhaust open .005
Exhaust close .001

Does that look like a winner or should I keep going?
"The Vincent was like a bullet that went straight; the Ducati is like the magic bullet in Dallas that went sideways and hit JFK and the Governor of Texas at the same time."--HST    **"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.  A man who works with his hands and his brain is a craftsman.  A man who works with his hands, brains, and heart is an artist."  -Louis Nizer**

Speeddog

#194
September 24, 2020, 04:03:04 PM
No need to paint it, just ship it
- - - - - Valley Desmo Service - - - - -
Reseda, CA
(951) 640-8908

~~~ "We've rearranged the deck chairs, refilled the champagne glasses, and the band sounds great. This is fine." - Alberto Puig ~~~
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