S2R 1000 vs SBK dilema

[silentbob]

I'm just looking for input here cuz i'm not sure what to do. I have an '06 S2R1k with 7500 mi on the clock and dig the bike. Recently I bought a 01 996 SPS and the bike is intoxicating to ride. Im SERIOUSLY neglecting the Monster. After talking with ( although kinda one sided) the wife, I may have to sell one of the bikes. I kep comparing the two and how much fun one is over the other and cant come to a decision. I've put close to 3k miles on the 996 since I got her and even though she's tempermantal, waaay too loud, roasts my inner thighs and chugs gas.... I cant see ditching her. I was wondering if an S4RS would be a compromise- for the power, brakes etc....



1098s?


Hell I dont know.......

I think you have your answer.  Keep the 996.

[silentbob]

The S4RS is definitely not a compromise. Once properly set up and with a DP Termi kit, they will handle, brake and accelerate with anything Ducati has, and up to about 8000 rpm even a 1098.  So far as HP and torque go, take a look at the power curves Brad Black has posted on the Moto-one site in a cross model comparison. The bigger valve heads of the S4RS out power the 996 and hangs well with a 1098 until 8000 rpm and even makes as good and better torque than the 1000/1100 2v.

For me it's the best of both worlds. Much more comfort than a SB, just as good in terms of real world performance as a SB, and once the suspension is properly set up, handles and brakes as well as ANYTHING.

There are some good low millage deals out there on fully Ducati performance kitted models that have languished in the garages.

Having said all this, as delivered (stock), I don't like em nearly as well. 

I am just a little biased though.

LA

You can't compare a stock 1098 to a modified S4Rs.  Either compare stock vs stock or DP kit vs DP kit.  Brad Black has not tested a 1098 without cats.  The 1098 stomps the S4Rs everywhere from idle to redline.  Is the S4Rs fast?  Yes.  Would I want more power than an S4Rs in an upright naked bike?  No way.  Will the S4Rs out handle the 1098?  No.  Not without clipons, rear sets and a better shaped tank.  Is the S4Rs more comfortable than a 1098?  Depends on your riding.  Track riding and long highway rides, the 1098 wins.  Around town the Monster is much better.

[tommys67]

It all comes down to an honest assessment of what kind of riding you will be doing.

Here's my status as a bikeless rider...

I originally got the Monster 695 as my first bike, as the best all-round bike I could find.  By the time I sold it I had started to find the limits of the bike, and I learned what I wanted and didn't want on a bike.

Conclusion first - I will be getting a sportbike of some sort early next year.

Why?

- I live in NYC - and riding around town sucks.  I get out of town to do my riding, therefore most rides are planned.
- My rides are all-day affairs.  Lots of twisties, lots of slab to get to the twisties.  I hated getting blown around the highway on the Monster, and being scared silly above 75mph.  I rented a CBR 600RR two weeks ago and felt so much more comfortable and secure on the highway it wasn't funny.  Of course it was great in the twisties!
- As a divorced father of two, I don't have a ton of free time on the weekends, and thus my Sunday rides are plotted and planned well in advance.  I can't just jump on the bike and putt around on evenings or weekends.  Riding is, due to a lot of factors (age, experience, the points above), a very special thing for me.  I want to make every ride special.

Due to all that, it makes sense for me to have something more focused, fully faired, and a little bit special.

I have a "short list" of potential bikes, and like my avatar - it's the usual suspects of the SBK world!

YMMV

[LA]

Take a vallium Bob.

I can too compare anything I want to - so there.

FWIW, Yes Brad has dynoed both a homologated kitted 1098 and a full 70mm kitted 1098 (http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/1098withtermi70mm.html). That's what I was comparing the numbers to. The kitted S4RS makes 110 HP at 8,000 and both the Homologated and full 70 mm kitted bikes make about 120 at 8,000. Not my work.

One stock 1098 made 131HP/74lbft  and one made 137HP/77 lbft. After the kits went on the numbers were 137HP/77 lbft and 144HP/78 lbft.

Beyond that I have tested both a stock 1098 and a 1098s with slipons. I liked em both, just too old for that kind of thing every day. The monster is much more comfy. It's a personal preference thing.

And having said all of this, the 996 makes for all intent and purpose the same power as the S4RS until the upper rev range, which most of us don't use in every day real world riding conditions.

And once again, FWIW, there is such a big difference in the stock S4RS and a fully kitted model I just wouldn't care to ride a stock one. I remain VERY thankful for what I have and am not likely to be able to afford anything "better" anytime soon.

Sorry, didn't mean to piss on your camp fire. I hope you can find it in your heart (which I'm sure is big as Texas) to forgive me. I promise not to diss a 1098 ever again. You are welcome to dis mine all you like though. I promise not to get upset.

LA

[matt922]

1098 with termis(dp kit) /end thread.

[lawbreaker]

As far as riding, I'm starting to hit the canyons on sundays, and some mondays- on both bikes. I'll the local twistys around the pad on the way to work. Every day I go to work its like i'm 9 years old and my parents just turned me loose in Disneyland with a fist full of tickets. Believe it or not the 996 is quite comfy. until I leave work after 12+ hours of working- tired and the 996 dont do well together on the way home...




Still trying to keep 'em both...



and further mod  the S2R


And much thanks for the input.

[silentbob]

Take a vallium Bob.

I can too compare anything I want to - so there.

FWIW, Yes Brad has dynoed both a homologated kitted 1098 and a full 70mm kitted 1098 (http://www.moto-one.com.au/performance/1098withtermi70mm.html). That's what I was comparing the numbers to. The kitted S4RS makes 110 HP at 8,000 and both the Homologated and full 70 mm kitted bikes make about 120 at 8,000. Not my work.

One stock 1098 made 131HP/74lbft  and one made 137HP/77 lbft. After the kits went on the numbers were 137HP/77 lbft and 144HP/78 lbft.

Beyond that I have tested both a stock 1098 and a 1098s with slipons. I liked em both, just too old for that kind of thing every day. The monster is much more comfy. It's a personal preference thing.

And having said all of this, the 996 makes for all intent and purpose the same power as the S4RS until the upper rev range, which most of us don't use in every day real world riding conditions.

And once again, FWIW, there is such a big difference in the stock S4RS and a fully kitted model I just wouldn't care to ride a stock one. I remain VERY thankful for what I have and am not likely to be able to afford anything "better" anytime soon.

Sorry, didn't mean to piss on your camp fire. I hope you can find it in your heart (which I'm sure is big as Texas) to forgive me. I promise not to diss a 1098 ever again. You are welcome to dis mine all you like though. I promise not to get upset.

LA

No valium needed here.  Here is a quote from Brad

I don’t know where the power is, maybe the DP Carbon Termi muffler kit is where it’s hiding.

He has never tested a 1098 without the cats.  Adding bigger pipes to the 1098 and leaving the cats and baffles in place is the same as running an S4Rs with the stock exhaust system, which as you know is far from ideal.

It doesn't bother me if other bikes are faster or if certain people don't like my choice in bike.  I just point out where facts are misrepresented.  Certain things are just a matter of personal preference.  Such as the Monster being a more comfortable bike for you.  Other things are just fact.  Like a fully kitted 1098 putting out more HP and torque everywhere than a fully kitted S4Rs. 

I don't have anything against the S4Rs.  It is a great bike for what it is.  But it does not work as well in certain areas that a SBK does.  All bikes are a compromise.

Plan your next vacation in San Diego and I'll let you take the 1098 for a spin.

[LA]

report and dyno graphs for before and after Termi 70mm exhaust kit (full exhaust system, air filter, ECU)

What does Full 70 mm Exhaust system mean? Cat still in place?

I don't know. Guess we should ask Brad.

How bout it Brad?

By his graphs at 5000 the Testa is making about 57 hp and the 1098 is making about 57 hp. The Testa is making 75 hp at 6000 and the 1098 a little less than that.  At 7000 the Testa is making 94 hp and the 1098 94 hp. At 8000 the Testa is making 110 hp and the 1098 is making just under 120. Same dyno. Like I said to begin with the 1098 has it all over the Testa after that. As it should with 100 cc's more volume and 2 mm bigger valves. It's just closer in the meat of the register than I would have thought and I think that's what Brad was saying. Maybe?

Don't get me wrong here. Believe me, if I could work magic, I would put that 1098 motor right in my bike, right now.

Does your bike have the full kit on it?

LA

[silentbob]

The kit he used still has cats and baffles.  The kit I have is like the one on your S4Rs.  It has no cats or baffles.  I have no idea why he tested that "full system".  The charts I have seen with the real "full system" show a massive gain in torque throughout the entire powerband.  Ride one with the same mods as your bike (full system, no cats, no baffles, DP ECU, and 14 tooth sprocket)  Having an extra 15 ft lbs of torque every where in the rpm range is very noticeable over the 999 motor.

My bike will loop itself in the first three gears at low rpm and lift the front end in third at over 100 mph.  I have ridden 999's and S4Rs's with Termi kits and shorter gearing and they don't come close to the kind of power that this bike has.

Personally, the bike has more power than I can use on the track and way more than I would ever want in a naked bike.

Let me know what time your plane arrives.   

[Speeddog]

-------------snip-----------
  I have no idea why he tested that "full system". 
----------------snip---------------

Likely it's what the customer wanted on his bike.

[brad black]

the 1098 exhausts i have tested are:

1/ termi ti slip ons with cats.  you should see them glow on the dyno.  looks great.

2/ termi 70mm full system.  no cats.  just great big pipes that don't work any better than the std ones.

the 1098 midrange hole is due to the exhaust design.  the bimota db7 has a different system without midrange hole.  the s4rs with termi 50mm kit has a similar hole at the lower rpm, but it's smaller in terms of power drop and rpm width, so you don't notice it as much.

it's the torque rise at the higher end of this hole that makes the 1098 in particular and s4rs feel so fast, and why they'll wheelie at higher speeds.  a 996 or sps won't wheelie like that because the torque curve is much flatter.

[LA]

2/ termi 70mm full system.  no cats.  just great big pipes that don't work any better than the std ones.

Thanks Brad,

O.K. Bob, I sent Brad a PM and ask him if #2 line on the charts was a "Full System" and you have his awnser - Yes a "full system", no cats and with the ECU and open airbox. Thats where I got the numbers. I printed the charts and read across with a ruler to get them.

Like I said, I am aware that the 1098 is more powerful. I'd love to have one. That was never a point of contention.

Be careful who you invite to San Diego. I will be out in mid Sept. for a laboratory design seminar. I'll buy you all the beer or anything else you can drink. 

Hope ya'll have a good day. 

LA

[silentbob]

That seems really strange since all the other dyno runs seem to show quite a difference between the mufflers without cats versus the ones with cats.  I have ridden the S4R with high compression pistons, the S4Rs with the 50mm Termi kit, and the 1098 with the full system and the 1098 pulls like the 996 down low and the 999 up top so it is surprising when someone tells me they thought the bottom end was weak.  Without starting a whole different dyno different day argument, I am posting the results from Dan Kyle's dyno.  Like Brad, Dan is a well respected tuner and he does not inflate his dyno results to make people feel good.



See you in September Larry.

[DRKWNG]

Wow.  That really digressed from the original intent of the thread...

[LA]

Wow.  That really digressed from the original intent of the thread...

Yea, we got a little carried away.

Sorry about that, I'll try to do better in the future.

LA