What does SP or SPS mean on the older bikes?
It stands for Sport Production or Sport Production Special. The early 1994 916SP bikes had Pankl titanium rods, twin fuel injectors/cylinder, bigger valves, larger header pipes and mufflers, etc. Just more goodies than the standard Tamburini designed 916. The 916SPS bikes actually had the 996 engine and crankcases for World Superbike homologation (a bike manufacturer has to produce x number of street going bikes before they can qualify it for FIM Superbike racing). The SPS bikes were made with that end use in mind. They also have more of the same stuff as the SP bikes. They were built in very limited numbers and weren't really intended for the street although many, such as mine and cdc's, ended up there. Many ended up as race bikes only. These bikes would eventually become the "R" models over time. 996SPS, 998R, 999R, 1098R...
Quote from: fastwin on September 30, 2008, 05:45:54 AM
It stands for Sport Production or Sport Production Special. The early 1994 916SP bikes had Pankl titanium rods, twin fuel injectors/cylinder, bigger valves, larger header pipes and mufflers, etc. Just more goodies than the standard Tamburini designed 916. The 916SPS bikes actually had the 996 engine and crankcases for World Superbike homologation (a bike manufacturer has to produce x number of street going bikes before they can qualify it for FIM Superbike racing). The SPS bikes were made with that end use in mind. They also have more of the same stuff as the SP bikes. They were built in very limited numbers and weren't really intended for the street although many, such as mine and cdc's, ended up there. Many ended up as race bikes only. These bikes would eventually become the "R" models over time. 996SPS, 998R, 999R, 1098R...
Thanks Brian, I often wondered this myself.
why don't the big 4 jap companies do the same, or is it because their bikes are already stupid fast?
Quote from: pipeliner1978 on September 30, 2008, 06:05:34 AM
why don't the big 4 jap companies do the same, or is it because their bikes are already stupid fast?
I think its more along the lines that they produce them in "stupid" numbers... not to put any of them down, but there is nothing SP or SPS about them. To produce a select number of SP/SPS japenese bikes would break the collective "mold" and doesnt make good production sense when your goal is to produce as many units as possible.
Quote from: Kevin848 on September 30, 2008, 06:07:53 AM
I think its more along the lines that they produce them in "stupid" numbers... not to put any of them down, but there is nothing SP or SPS about them. To produce a select number of SP/SPS japenese bikes would break the collective "mold" and doesnt make good production sense when your goal is to produce as many units as possible.
??? but there are alot of "squids" out there with lots of money, some of them have like $60K plus invested........
but that's not really my question, why only Ducati
Quote from: fastwin on September 30, 2008, 05:45:54 AM
(a bike manufacturer has to produce x number of street going bikes before they can qualify it for FIM Superbike racing).
I guess I just don't know the differences between all the different classes and what the regulations are..... maybe I should read every now and then [cheeky]
Quote from: Kevin848 on September 30, 2008, 06:07:53 AM
doesn't make good production sense when your goal is to produce as many units as possible.
isn't that every companies goal? More sales? If Ducati had the same # of customers willing to pay for a new bike, They would attempt to produce higher #'s too right? I always thought that the reason people bought the other bikes was more bang for your buck.......faster, cheaper to buy, definitely cheaper to maintain, not because the company made a million units......
Each Ducati is pretty much hand built. The small factory in Bologna is not going to produce the same numbers as the Big 4
Quote from: bryant8 on September 30, 2008, 06:35:02 AM
Each Ducati is pretty much hand built. The small factory in Bologna is not going to produce the same numbers as the Big 4
I understand that they have a smaller production line, but if they "sold out" of their bikes regularly, I think they would make changes to produce more........ that's not really the question I was looking to be answered here:
Quote from: fastwin on September 30, 2008, 05:45:54 AM
(a bike manufacturer has to produce x number of street going bikes before they can qualify it for FIM Superbike racing).
why is Ducati the only company that has to produce a "R" version to race in SBK?
Quote from: pipeliner1978 on September 30, 2008, 06:19:20 AM
??? but there are alot of "squids" out there with lots of money, some of them have like $60K plus invested........
but that's not really my question, why only DucatiI guess I just don't know the differences between all the different classes and what the regulations are..... maybe I should read every now and then [cheeky]
Not sure man. I bet Brian knows! [thumbsup]
Quotewhy is Ducati the only company that has to produce a "R" version to race in SBK?
Maybe just to give the buyer that bit of exclusiveness or maybe because there is a small percentage of people that see it as a collectors item. Ducati races the 1098R in WSBK, Honda races the CBR... you can buy both but the Ducati is much closer to the actual super bike than the CBR. Hence the $40k price tag. Why they do it is anyones guess, but I am glad they do... now where are my lotto tickets!
I was watching a show yesterday on Speed and they were talking to this man that had this huge collection of cars. He had a Veyron, and a 1970's Ferarri GT that won Le Mans in 1977 that was worth 20 million dollars. They did a quick pan of his garage and sitting there next to a $500K Ferrari of some sort was a 999R... I was so proud! ... No jap crap in that shop buddy!
[discalimer]
This post was not intended to demean Japenese people or there very nice motorcycles ;D
[/disclaimer]
I could go on and on for hours about this but I won't. [laugh] [bang] The Japs have made "special" bikes in the past. Suzuki made a GSXR750 Limited in 1986 that had the racing dry clutch (a $2,500 value!!!), the GSXR1100 front end and brakes and had a factory one piece solo seat ala 916s. I had one and sold it to the owner of Action Kawasaki/Suzuki in 2005... it had less than 600 miles on it and was bone stock! He said it was the nicest one in the country. Yamaha also made a limited edition FZR750 for the old 750cc World SBK days. Kawasaki has made a few. The old Z1R air cooled 1000cc, then in 1982 and 1983 the KZ1000R Eddie Lawson Replica (I still have my '83 model) and just recently they made two middleweights. The ZX6 and the ZX6RR. The ZX6 was a 636cc middleweight sportbike but the RR was a true 600cc bike with a special close ratio tranny and other goodies for 600cc racing worldwide. It was made in limited numbers. Honda is the one who has never liked to play the "special" game.
Quote from: pipeliner1978 on September 30, 2008, 06:32:07 AM
isn't that every companies goal? More sales? If Ducati had the same # of customers willing to pay for a new bike, They would attempt to produce higher #'s too right? I always thought that the reason people bought the other bikes was more bang for your buck.......faster, cheaper to buy, definitely cheaper to maintain, not because the company made a million units......
I think Ferrari "sells out", but you don't see them busting @ss to make more...
Quote from: fastwin on September 30, 2008, 05:45:54 AM
It stands for Sport Production or Sport Production Special. The early 1994 916SP bikes had Pankl titanium rods, twin fuel injectors/cylinder, bigger valves, larger header pipes and mufflers, etc. Just more goodies than the standard Tamburini designed 916. The 916SPS bikes actually had the 996 engine and crankcases for World Superbike homologation (a bike manufacturer has to produce x number of street going bikes before they can qualify it for FIM Superbike racing). The SPS bikes were made with that end use in mind. They also have more of the same stuff as the SP bikes. They were built in very limited numbers and weren't really intended for the street although many, such as mine and cdc's, ended up there. Many ended up as race bikes only. These bikes would eventually become the "R" models over time. 996SPS, 998R, 999R, 1098R...
Quote from: fastwin on September 30, 2008, 08:28:26 AM
I could go on and on for hours about this but I won't. [laugh] [bang] The Japs have made "special" bikes in the past. Suzuki made a GSXR750 Limited in 1986 that had the racing dry clutch (a $2,500 value!!!), the GSXR1100 front end and brakes and had a factory one piece solo seat ala 916s. I had one and sold it to the owner of Action Kawasaki/Suzuki in 2005... it had less than 600 miles on it and was bone stock! He said it was the nicest one in the country. Yamaha also made a limited edition FZR750 for the old 750cc World SBK days. Kawasaki has made a few. The old Z1R air cooled 1000cc, then in 1982 and 1983 the KZ1000R Eddie Lawson Replica (I still have my '83 model) and just recently they made two middleweights. The ZX6 and the ZX6RR. The ZX6 was a 636cc middleweight sportbike but the RR was a true 600cc bike with a special close ratio tranny and other goodies for 600cc racing worldwide. It was made in limited numbers. Honda is the one who has never liked to play the "special" game.
Unfortunately, Brian has his facts......right again as usual. ;D
To add just a little bit more to this, Yamaha recently did produce a limited number of R1's with , if memory serves me right, Ohlin's suspension and a $20K price tag. Same motor and frame. It was painted in the yellow and black bumblee bee colors that was distinctive of past Yamaha racers.
To recap recent past practices, at least as it concerns the 916 racing era, Ducati raced in WSBK using the 916 (but in 955cc, then 996cc motors.) against Japanese 750 cc inline 4s except for Honda which raced the 750cc V-4 RC30? then RC45. Ducati made the 916SP with a 955cc motor in the factory racer because they were allowed up to a 1000cc (twins) against 4 cylinders. I've seen one RC30 and think public ownership of RC45s are as rare as hen's teeth. I think some people have them (in museums) but I have not seen one. If they were ever sold as homologation bikes, that would have been the equivalent of the SPS/R bikes but I hear their current values are whatever the highest bidder is willing to pay on his knees begging.
I don't think the Japanese find it necessary to build special bikes as people would rather build up their bikes than shell out $20K upfront for one, seems illogical but apparently a fact, except those who buy Ducatis and value them (or think they do) and are willing to pay for the "speciale" bikes.
Any inaccuracies in the above will corrected soon enough I'm sure.
cdc
thanks Chuck for the information, but why did Ducati "have to" and the others didn't, and I remember the recent R1, only flaw was it was yellow ;)
Quote from: L'Smart on September 30, 2008, 09:40:44 AM
I think Ferrari "sells out", but you don't see them busting @ss to make more...
apples and oranges my good man
Ferrari is in a way higher class than Ducati
Pricing alone doesn't make these 2 comparable...............unless ofcourse if the cheapest Ducati sold was a d16rr
Don't the twins require a higher state of tune in order to produce similar power to the I-4 bikes (on level cc displacement)? I think that's why they produce(d) the "SP," "SPS," or "R" bikes.
So to satisfy consumer demos, they produce a stable, more reliable version of a bike for the masses, but for those that want the hot-rod version that can be found on the race tracks they produce those. (plus meet homologation rules)
I could be completely wrong... [thumbsup]
Quote from: Kevin848 on September 30, 2008, 06:55:29 AM
you can buy both but the Ducati is much closer to the actual super bike
Which one is closer?
1098R $40000
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL363/7371556/19880304/336740654.jpg)
1098 base $16000
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL363/7371556/19880304/336739504.jpg)
2007 Suzuki GSXR1000 $13000
(http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL363/7371556/19880304/336739503.jpg)
My only thing is, I don't think the the Ducati's are better, they are just apples to oranges. I think a stock GSXR 1000 is a faster, more powerful bike (with way less maintenance!!!!) than the stock 1098. My dream bike is a 1098R, but I believe if you have $40000 invested in a GSXR 1000, you got a bike capable of eating a 1098's lunch..... I think unless you are racing and are able to completely tune your bike to you, then you are just buying it for sex appeal. Or you are buying it because it's a twin (apple) vs a in-line 4 (orange), not because it's better.
FYI, I bought mine cause it's pure sex [thumbsup]
Or you could buy a 22hp Honda like Peter Lenz rides and school the crap out of literbikes on the track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU6xrs7SOCc
Quote from: bryant8 on September 30, 2008, 02:57:50 PM
Or you could buy a 22hp Honda like Peter Lenz rides and school the crap out of literbikes on the track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU6xrs7SOCc
I cant view the video at work, but there is no doubt in my mind that there are people that read this forum that can take a 695 and run circles around me on my 1098s on the track. [cheeky]
I meant to add that dyno sheets are great and all, but don't tell what a bike can do.
Check that video out though when you get the chance. This kid is amazing [thumbsup]
Quote from: bryant8 on September 30, 2008, 03:02:40 PM
I meant to add that dyno sheets are great and all, but don't tell what a bike can do.
I know, that's why I think more people should test ride inline 4's
I love my 1098, I love my R1 and I really loved my GSXR 1000.........all wonderful bikes, but we all know know which is the fastest (and it aint the Duc)
Right on, no arguement there.
Fastest in which situation is the question. [bang] (sorta like the fastest color debate)
Quote from: bryant8 on September 30, 2008, 02:57:50 PM
... Peter Lenz rides and school the crap out of literbikes on the track..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU6xrs7SOCc
WOW :o - that's humbling to watch - child SBK Prodigy !
Quote from: bryant8 on September 30, 2008, 03:11:35 PM
Right on, no arguement there.
Fastest in which situation is the question. [bang] (sorta like the fastest color debate)
yeah, fastest from point a to point b, it's hard for any twin to dominate. On the track.........Rossi or Stoner.....Spies or Mladin...I guess that would just depend on how good the rider is on which track etc....
and if we are talking fastest color, that just depends on the model of bike, 848 white! (sorry Kev) 1098 red/gold, inline 4 blue!
Quote from: Cyclone on September 30, 2008, 03:22:14 PM
WOW :o - that's humbling to watch - child SBK Prodigy !
I quit.
Quote from: pipeliner1978 on September 30, 2008, 02:14:12 PM
thanks Chuck for the information, but why did Ducati "have to" and the others didn't, and I remember the recent R1, only flaw was it was yellow ;)
I don't think it is that they have to but that their business model allows them to and they want to. If they "have" to it may be that they live and work in an environment that expects them to. MV Agusta had the limited (300 bikes ) $50k+ "Oro Edition" F4 750cc when they first came back to market and currently have the $100K+ F4 1078cc limited edition (100 bikes) "CC". Benelli also had a limited edition of the Tre' and there's Bimota, in a world of their own.
Again the Japanese don't feel they have to or that it is economically feasible for them to do so, something about too small a market to compete among themselves and the Europeans. They just as soon cede that part of the market to them.
Bryant also makes a good point as an example, the last factory 999 WSBK was competitive with the inline 4 WSBK racers but was so highly tuned that they felt the reliability of the race motors were suspect so the 999 for the rest of us is less highly tuned.
Finally, as Ducatis become "more affordable" as an initial purchase, more people discover the brand and decide if they like the way the bike "performs". It should never be about straight line speed or HP ratings because even today's inline 4 will be quickly eclipsed on the spec sheet by tomorrow's inline 4. The product cycle is so short that you won't have the best, at least not long enough to enjoy it. Ducati will never win that contest at the price the Japanese can crank them out.
My battery operated Citizen watch is more accurate than a wind up big bucks automatic watch but one is a time piece and the other keeps time.
In the end, some people who buy Ducatis decide it is not the bike for them for a variety of reasons while others stay and collect an assortment of them "pair and a spare". Some will hedge their bets and buy a more "reliable" bike as a backup. To each his own.
I am in awe of the japanese inline 4 but I love my Ducs, even the unglamorous ST4S which performed well during the AR trip, despite the clutch problem.
cdc
thanks for clearing that up chuck!
everyone on the forum, make no mistake, I love my ducs and want more. I just like motorcycles, all kinds.
Quote from: pipeliner1978 on September 30, 2008, 08:49:21 PM
thanks for clearing that up chuck!
everyone on the forum, make no mistake, I love my ducs and want more. I just like motorcycles, all kinds.
I do too except it's not possible to own all that I want so I stick to the ones I have.
Oh and that's Charles to you bubba. ;D
cdc
Quote from: pipeliner1978 on September 30, 2008, 08:49:21 PM
everyone on the forum, make no mistake, I love my ducs and want more. I just like motorcycles, all kinds.
I ride motorcycles without regard to color, creed, or national origin ! EQUAL OPPORTUNITY RIDER !! God Bless America !!
I think a perfect solution to this debate is for ommyta to go and buy a GSXR and hand the 1098s down to me! (with or without properly working clutch, I'm really not too picky) [laugh]
Quote from: Bonwilder on September 30, 2008, 09:17:33 PM
I think a perfect solution to this debate is for ommyta to go and buy a GSXR and hand the 1098s down to me! (with or without properly working clutch, I'm really not too picky) [laugh]
Now that is what she said! [clap] [clap] [clap]
cdc
Quote from: cdc on September 30, 2008, 09:41:43 PM
Now that is what she said! [clap] [clap] [clap]
cdc
I've got one vote......anybody second that??
Quote from: Bonwilder on September 30, 2008, 09:42:37 PM
I've got one vote......anybody second that??
My wife says you have her vote too.
He just says he likes the duc but he is really jonesing for a gixxer isn't he?
cdc
Quote from: cdc on September 30, 2008, 09:55:46 PM
My wife says you have her vote too.
He just says he likes the duc but he is really jonesing for a gixxer isn't he?
cdc
The gixxer was his first bike....guess you never get over the first one, huh?? Anyway, I'm trying to talk him into trading in the R1 for a gixxer, for my own personal sanity, of corse. I don't think I can hear any more of it! [laugh] Tell your wife thanks for the vote...it will not hurt my feelings to ride the 1098! [bacon] [bacon]
The R1 LE was a great bike. For $18k though I wanted more than Ohlins suspension and Marchesini wheels.
.
frankly, I don't have a good reason for liking DUCs over jap bikes. At least when I rode BMW bikes, I could point to some things, German engineering, reliability, comfort, smoothness ( like riding a 2001 K1200RS for 16 hours with only pee, gas, and water breaks, charging the cell phone off the built in adapter, and a y-plug so I could keep the mp3 player plugged in at the same time. I would get off with no cramping in wrist, back, neck, or anything else, and I could charge the phone or ipod off the adapter overnight, get up the next morning, toss the sleeping bag in the side bag, and start up the bike on the first button press )
i bought the duc because I wanted to go faster than the BMWs. why not buy a jap bike? those are fast, reliable... dunno. sex appeal? corner exit speed ( is this even really true, or just something we tell ourselves? ) wanted a big v-twin? wanted to blow wads of cash on maintenance? I really don't know. It wasn't a brain decision, it was a visceral gut decision that I never regret for a second. This is my first duc, and I'm absolutely in love with it... in a way that I never was with the BMW ( and I did love that bike ).
i've looked at a lot of other bikes as potential second bikes, BMWs, Triumphs, but I keep coming back to looking at another Ducati. Don't know what it will end up being, but I know that it won't be a japanese bike, and that there is absolutely no good reason why not.
Quote from: bryant8 on September 30, 2008, 02:57:50 PM
Or you could buy a 22hp Honda like Peter Lenz rides and school the crap out of literbikes on the track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU6xrs7SOCc
<sigh> this happens to me while skiing too....